Wavecor Ardent Journal - the first Builds

[JonMarsh]

Safe trip home, Jon.

Thanks again for the design help offer. Yes, hybrid would be a good thing. I've got the original shielded 8 ohm RS225s, but I think that I'll go with UM10s on this build. I'm also leaning heavily more toward absolute performance. I recognize that the ZA14 is a great value, but if I take my time I can afford Scans. I'll start a separate design/build thread shortly to keep from cluttering up this thread more than I already have.

That combo will likely require a different approach on the midrange crossover point- somewhat lower- which means some BSC provided in the midrange setup. Depending on what you're using for EQ, it may be easiest to provide that built in to the passive Mid crossover, as if it were a two way system, with an active crossover to bass bins.

We'll also get some data on how the UM10s look distortion wise and response wise with increasing frequency.

Found this, I did when working on small sub for GF's HT with UM10:



This is with and without LP filter; there is some LF EQ here, too, below 50 Hz, from the Hypex plate amp. Fairly smooth out to 400Hz, but I'll have to find the original file and look at the distortion (any Fuzzmeasure SPL file can be converted into a swept distortion measurement with a couple of clicks.)

[JonMarsh]

Thanks, Ryan

The room is well treated with acoustic panels and a heavy curtain sectioning off the area to the left. I have a large area rug in front of the listening area which is temperately move for the re-org. I'll post some shots when all is back in place. Hope to have all my parts to finish in place by the end of the month. ops: Ben's stuff is on the way to Cal and he is off next week so he should get Stereo pair first!

Well, let's see how close behind him we can both be! :B

[benthe8track]

Heh well the parts express stuff is at home waiting and the Madisound order should be there by Tuesday. I get back on Thursday afternoon and have 7 days to get them built and up and running. This tour can't go fast enough

[dar47]

Well in trying to avoid shipping and (exchange, taxes 23%) to Canada which is terrible I'm going to use Clarity ESA in the mids and MR's in the tweet, this is my final. Reduced some caps in the mid section so it should make more room on the big Mid section board to be attached to the base. If anyone sees any goofs let me know going to order soon.

[shootinnutz]

Hi everyone, this is my first post here and I really enjoyed watching this build progress.Is there a way I can get a PDF on the speaker build? That faceted baffle is just awesome. Thanks, Paul

[JonMarsh]

I'm planning on putting one together, as well as an official build thread, but I expect I won't get started on that until Thanksgiving. Check back and see!

[JonMarsh]

Well in trying to avoid shipping and (exchange, taxes 23%) to Canada which is terrible I'm going to use Clarity ESA in the mids and MR's in the tweet, this is my final. Reduced some caps in the mid section so it should make more room on the big Mid section board to be attached to the base. If anyone sees any goofs let me know going to order soon.

I'll check this over and get back to you ASAP.

~Jon

PS- Forum Section "Speed" has update on GTS1000 with first ride report. Yeah, those are normally done when I bike has just come out- so I'm 21 years late! :W

[JonMarsh]

Gosh darn it Jon, you are so evil! :W Why am I searching on Craigslist for a Yamaha GTS1000 that is just down the road from you;



I had a Yamaha Vision in grad school that was also ahead of its time. Seems like everyone in this neck of the woods rides a Harley, which doesn't interest the mid-life crisis in me one bit. The GTS Looks like a fun bike with a good following.

Hope you have more time to ride in the near future (or get back into building dipoles).

Craig

Just posted a first ride update in the Speed section of the forum. I'm impressed- I had second thoughts over the weekend, wondering what I'd gotten myself into, but that's a real sweet behaving bike. If you can find a low mileage sample, and if the sport touring riding position suits you, I'd say consider going for it!

Here's a few months old listing- if you're serious, I'd check it out- might have to use a transport service, but it's super low miles like mine.

http://www.bike4sale.co/detail/FocVmucmLoLmomVoFmc/YAMAHA-GTS-1000-SPORT-TOUR-SINGLE-SIDE-FRONT-END-LOOK-NO

[JonMarsh]

OT- Corbin on GTS1000 this AM- more in Speed

Gotta mention I put the Corbin seat on this morning, and love it. More about this in the Speed forum section.

[sliceofhogan]

As this is DIY, you may like this (when you're tired of touring


this is the thread (dutch, but lots of pictures) of the rebuild, in case you are interested: http://www.motor-forum.nl/forum/list...he-next-1.html

And if you really want an exclusive bike, i recommend mine 8):


But now back to the speakers, I want the updated Natalie P's ........ am much to old for motorcycles.

[JimS]

Hope you have more time to ride in the near future (or get back into building dipoles).

+2 more fun, more dipoles

[JonMarsh]

As this is DIY, you may like this (when you're tired of touring


this is the thread (dutch, but lots of pictures) of the rebuild, in case you are interested: http://www.motor-forum.nl/forum/list...he-next-1.html

And if you really want an exclusive bike, i recommend mine 8):

Thanks for the link! I'll check that out! and for the pictures, too- it's a great way to start the morning off! Your bike looks rather exclusive, too!

I have new shocks and some other upgrades picked out, but it's not my intention to turn the GTS into a hard core sports bike, but rather to refine and further develop the "Gentleman's Express" concept.

Well, you must be a very mature gentleman, if you are too old for motorcycles- I'm 63, and think I have more than a few years left on them! (I have friends locally that ride in their 70's). But to each his own- there are many styles of riding, some much more physically demanding- perhaps that is a higher bar you hold yourself to! :W

[benthe8track]

Almost all of the parts are here. I missed the same parts that were repeated on different lines and Parts Express's international shipping is so ridiculously expensive that I'll have to sub some parts from Solen. They did call me to thank me for the order which was nice I guess. I shouldn't have tried to order while busy at work, there are a few spots where you can cut down the amount of capacitors for sure.

I grabbed some internal dimensions from the model and printed some envelopes to try. Off to home depot to get the backing material and start soldering.

[JonMarsh]

Well in trying to avoid shipping and (exchange, taxes 23%) to Canada which is terrible I'm going to use Clarity ESA in the mids and MR's in the tweet, this is my final. Reduced some caps in the mid section so it should make more room on the big Mid section board to be attached to the base. If anyone sees any goofs let me know going to order soon.

I PROMISE I'll get this looked at this AM... :W

[JonMarsh]

Almost all of the parts are here. I missed the same parts that were repeated on different lines and Parts Express's international shipping is so ridiculously expensive that I'll have to sub some parts from Solen. They did call me to thank me for the order which was nice I guess. I shouldn't have tried to order while busy at work, there are a few spots where you can cut down the amount of capacitors for sure.

I grabbed some internal dimensions from the model and printed some envelopes to try. Off to home depot to get the backing material and start soldering.

Looks like you're making great progress!

I'm looking forward to this weekend being at home and able to work on things for the first time in several weeks...

[JonMarsh]

Well in trying to avoid shipping and (exchange, taxes 23%) to Canada which is terrible I'm going to use Clarity ESA in the mids and MR's in the tweet, this is my final. Reduced some caps in the mid section so it should make more room on the big Mid section board to be attached to the base. If anyone sees any goofs let me know going to order soon.

This looks fine, functionally. But I bet that 100uF ESA cap is pretty big... :W

[sliceofhogan]

Thanks for the link! I'll check that out! and for the pictures, too- it's a great way to start the morning off! Your bike looks rather exclusive, too!

I have new shocks and some other upgrades picked out, but it's not my intention to turn the GTS into a hard core sports bike, but rather to refine and further develop the "Gentleman's Express" concept.

Well, you must be a very mature gentleman, if you are too old for motorcycles- I'm 63, and think I have more than a few years left on them! (I have friends locally that ride in their 70's). But to each his own- there are many styles of riding, some much more physically demanding- perhaps that is a higher bar you hold yourself to! :W

Was just kidding, I am only 58 i drive my bike daily (sommer & winter), it is a MotoMorini Corsaro 1200. Have it for 6 years now and can't do a day without driving it. Although none of my mates understand my love for the sometimes unreliable, but always fast and exiting bella....... But enough, bikers can never stop talking about their babies.

[dar47]

This looks fine, functionally. But I bet that 100uF ESA cap is pretty big... :W

Thanks, Jon
Ya the 100 is 2-3/8" D x 3" L so I think the height would be similar to the stack, it's just the length. Looking a Ben's 3 boards I'll see how he makes out. Some times the master must let the student lead, haha.

[TEK]

Almost all of the parts are here. I missed the same parts that were repeated on different lines and Parts Express's international shipping is so ridiculously expensive that I'll have to sub some parts from Solen. They did call me to thank me for the order which was nice I guess. I shouldn't have tried to order while busy at work, there are a few spots where you can cut down the amount of capacitors for sure.

I grabbed some internal dimensions from the model and printed some envelopes to try. Off to home depot to get the backing material and start soldering.

Where are you planning on placing the crossover? In the base, as John, inside or in an external box?

[benthe8track]

Where are you planning on placing the crossover? In the base, as John, inside or in an external box?

Split between the 3 boards as shown. Far left is the mid and that's sitting on the base, the sub and tweeter boards get fixed to the walls like this:

[kvardas]

Could a pair of scan speaker 3004/662000 tweeters be used for this project without modification to the crossover?

Thanks

Kris

[kvardas]

would it be possible to get a copy of the digital CNC files! A friend of my has a CNC machine and I would like to make a pair of these speakers.

Thanks

Kros

[TEK]

Split between the 3 boards as shown. Far left is the mid and that's sitting on the base, the sub and tweeter boards get fixed to the walls like this:

I like that solution, tought that the bases got a bit high when placing it there. And I assume that tje base can be removed so that you can tamper more with the crossover later if needed.

[JonMarsh]

Could a pair of scan speaker 3004/662000 tweeters be used for this project without modification to the crossover?

Thanks

Kris

Probably without issue, but I'd want to check in LspCAD to be sure. The basic response of the 6620 and the 6640 are quite similar, and they use the same faceplate. My recollection is that the impedance curves are quite similar. I don't have a pair of 6620 around any longer, or I'd just try mounting it in the second cab to see how it works! What I am lacking is measurements of the 6620 on that baffle. But I'll go back and look at my quasi IB measurements of both tweeters and get back to you.

[benthe8track]

My wife has informed me the last few parts that I missed have arrived. So I'll be listening to a stereo pair in ~2 days. Also my dad has been experimenting with the felt. I don't have the pictures on me but he figures Avalon uses the same F1 felt but it is shaped.

[JonMarsh]

Damn, you're going to beat me! I was planning a push effort for stereo starting this weekend, want to have them playing in the family room before Thanksgiving, and have the Isiris pulled out to get ready to start their assembly updates (which likely won't happen until the Xmas break).

BTW, do you have a solid works to IGES or SAT or STEP translator to export your files? There's an update to the full version of Shark coming out in December that will have direct solid works import, but it's a bit pricey just to mainly get that feature, as I don't really need it's other stuff. If DXF is in 3D that would work, too, for me. I'd like to start working on documentation for the project.

[JonMarsh]

You can do some cool stuff in Shark- this is a design created in Shark in a contest, with final rendering in KeyShot. Pretty cool, I'd say... though you wouldn't catch wearing this!

[knowledgebass]

Have you read David Ralph's pages on his felt diffraction experiments? Not necessarily definitive but one of the few documented experiences I found. I purchased F13 felt as a result, if only because it's what I could find info on.

http://www.speakerdesign.net

[benthe8track]

You can do some cool stuff in Shark- this is a design created in Shark in a contest, with final rendering in KeyShot. Pretty cool, I'd say... though you wouldn't catch wearing this!

Yep that's not problem. I'll post up a link to a STEP verison when I get back in town. I've had the most luck comunicating with other software using STEP files but if that doesn't work we can try something else. They are nice because they keep the assembly together vs getting a bunch of different parts you'd have to assemble.

Have you read David Ralph's pages on his felt diffraction experiments? Not necessarily definitive but one of the few documented experiences I found. I purchased F13 felt as a result, if only because it's what I could find info on.
http://www.speakerdesign.net

Yep, that's where I started. I went F1 because it's the highest wool content but it's stiffer and needs to be contoured correctly. In a perfect world we could have tried a few different types/shapes and measured. Dar47 is going to measure what he comes up with.

Take a peak at how Avalon does it:

http://www.avalonacoustics.com/pdf/diahifip2.pdf

They have the mid sitting on the surface for some reason.

[BobEllis]

As for Avalon's surface mounted mid, I guess if you're going to hit it with felt anyway, why bother recessing? Interesting that Avalon does exactly what David Ralph describes as the worst case, worse than no felt - the tweeter ring. What gives there? Is it that real wool felt makes it OK?

[dar47]

Interesting the way they carve the edge like a wave guide but face it towards the driver.

http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CCMQ FjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.avalonacoustics.com%2Fpd f%2Fdiahifip2.pdf&ei=mDBtVPPiOMWayASe94CADg&usg=AF QjCNG4M7Xe11fsR5cW6PuC5MOWlstAgA&cad=rja

Looks like the felt is F1 same as ours and I'm going to try and mimic their approach and measure to see. Interesting read on the rings and blocks. I'll start close and keep opening up to see if it's better. I'll try curved surface towards drivers like Avalon and out towards grill cloth.

This was taking the edge down with file and utility knife.



Curve out.



Curve towards the driver.

Image not available

Does seam strange to have the curve towards the driver as to catch the sound wave and funnel it through the hole?

[benthe8track]

And we have a stereo pair!

Here's how the 3 boards fit in.



I'm glad I didn't mess up anything in the crossovers because after tightening the 7 bolts for the bases I never want to take it apart. They sounds...AWESOME! The felt needs work though, there is a marked improvement running grills with no felt or no grills. They need quite a bit more gain then the little 2-ways they replaced so I'll have to finish up that ncore amp for them soon. Feels good to hear these guys after a year and a half and countless hours of work!

[JonMarsh]

And we have a stereo pair!

Here's how the 3 boards fit in.



I'm glad I didn't mess up anything in the crossovers because after tightening the 7 bolts for the bases I never want to take it apart. They sounds...AWESOME! The felt needs work though, there is a marked improvement running grills with no felt or no grills. They need quite a bit more gain then the little 2-ways they replaced so I'll have to finish up that ncore amp for them soon. Feels good to hear these guys after a year and a half and countless hours of work!

That's great! :T

Trust me, I felt pretty much that way just hearing one- but for sure, by Thanksgiving Day USA, we'll have stereo with these in the family room!

[CraigJ]

And we have a stereo pair! They sounds...AWESOME!

:dancenana::dancenana:arty::dancenana::dancenana:

Oh, and congratulations and thanks for including us on your journey!

[5th element]

Congratulations. I bet they do sound wonderful. You've got some excellent and rather niche drivers, all working very well to provide a low distortion and highly extended design, whilst keeping the profile small. Of course this costs you some some sensitivity, but the only real limiting factor on that is the bass drivers ability to handle power, which should be very good and the amount of clean voltage the amplifier can swing. The ncores should fix that and what with the speakers being easy to drive, the current demands placed upon the amplifier wont be too high, so that should pay dividends with regards to sound quality.

I am sure you said something similar last thanksgiving Jon! But here's hoping things go as you'd like them too.

[JonMarsh]

Last Thanksgiving it was the crossover update to the Isiris! Remember, I didn't even get the cabinet piece to start working on until February 11 this year, way back in Page 8 in this thread...




Seems like this SHOULD have been done sooner, but then I have this bad habit of getting side tracked into time critical stuff that fits into other longer term plans and has to be done RIGHT NOW! My Canadian friends have been very patient and understanding with me... :B

[---k---]

Very cool. Wish I could hear them.
If you don't mind, what are these replacing? What's your reference?

[dar47]

Way to go Ben :T:T:T

I'm glad that vinyl is silky smooth for you and that their a BIG step up. It still amazes me that my son is starting at my end game but I guess that's the circle of life. Had a lot of fun building with you. So I can live vicariously through you guys, I need to see some nice pics with your feet up cause mine will be a bit of a wait. Jon it was a lot fun and I'm glad all that finger crossing by us worked out and you were able to squeeze the Wavecor version into your hectic 2014. Thanks for letting us tag along and taking advantage of your amazing skill set. ;x(;x(;x( I promise when mine are done I'll post some responses and see if we can tame that felt to get the last little bit out. To rest of the gang we really appreciated all the input and support through the build. :T

[5th element]

Every time I see those wavecor bass drivers it makes me smile

[JonMarsh]

Every time I see those wavecor bass drivers it makes me smile

Every time I hear them it makes me smile! :B

[5th element]

Just wait till you get both speakers up and running

[benthe8track]

Thanks guys! I've spent a lot of time from them the past few days and I have to say I think I'm in love.

Very cool. Wish I could hear them.
If you don't mind, what are these replacing? What's your reference?

Not at all. These little two ways that I made out of spare parts and Jed designed the crossover for me 6 years ago. They were solid speakers but in different leagues than the Ardents.

https://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php?29102-CA18RNX-Bookshelf-help

[JonMarsh]

Thanks guys! I've spent a lot of time from them the past few days and I have to say I think I'm in love.

Well, that's music to my ears! :W

I had a little spare time yesterday and made some progress on getting the second crossover updated- I'm still hoping for having them both running by Thanksgiving dinner at least! Though our Cupertino customer is in shutdown mode this week, my own boss just used that as an opportunity to bring me in for consulting on a lot of other topics and calls- I spent most of my time in conference calls yesterday, and following up on them with individuals.

[JonMarsh]

Hmmm, stereo IS nice!

15 Acoustic Alchemy albums on the M50 during cooking and dinner!

Will have to QA measure them this weekend, but not expecting any surprises, based on what I'm hearing.

[dar47]

Woo Hoo congrats on stereo.:hb Sounds like your really enjoying them and I hope you find some time to rest and enjoy your holiday with family. Looking forward to your final measure it will give us something to measure against. I'm slowing gathering xover parts, guess I'm bringing up the rear. :cry: