Tritrix translam build

[numberoneoppa]

The brad nails won't keep the pressure as well as clamps, I don't think. I could be way wrong on this though, as I've not used them that way before. Glue takes a while to set (20+ minutes), if you get everything together and dry fit to make sure everything is happy, you should be able to glue and clamp the entire thing within the set period. Also, you might consider using a roller or a brush to apply the glue to speed that process up and get a nice even coat.

[JonMarsh]

And this would be true because _________________?

Well, if you're willing to "man up" for an NAD M2, direct digital amplifier.

It's really rather good deal, if you consider all the components it replaces, with a high level of performance. The DAC conversion is probably better than any $1-2K DAC available, plus you've got a full digital preamp and 250w/ch digital amp. You have to go to some pricey separates to beat it performance wise; can't do it for the same money.

https://web.archive.org/web/20100329084158/http://www.avguide.com/review/nad-m2-direct-digital-amplifier-tas-198

https://www.stereophile.com/solidpow...ier/index.html

If someone only has $5K or so to spend for their complete electronics package, this should be high on your audition list. Start off with hooking up a Cambridge Audio 650 or Tascam Pro CD player to it, then add your preferred flavor of music sever (mine is a Mac Mini running iTunes with Pure Vinyl 3 in server mode)

T'would be tough to beat, unless you're ready to spend 3X the money. Say, a Berkeley Alpha DAC, an Ayre K5xe preamp, and an Ayre V5 power amp or Cambridge Audio 840W if you want to save some money on the amp.

[dpg]

The Onkyo 6** series is the lowest that's 4ohm stable I think (? - haven't looked recently). I've had good luck at shoponkyo.com on refurbished units as well.

Also, the 4ohm load is fairly benign as things go. I run mine on an amp that's only 8ohm rated and the RS150's run out of excursion before I have amp issues (granted, mine are ported and run without a sub).

I probably should look at doing a variation using the 4ohm drivers one of these days.

If I had even a decent 5.1 receiver to test the speakers with, I'd just try it and leave it if it works. But since I have to buy a receiver anyway, I figure I should get one that's 4-ohm rated rather than risk getting stuck with one that may or may not work with my setup.

Regarding the Onkyo receivers, I was looking through the manual of the SR607 and found this:

"North American/Taiwan models: You can connect
speakers with an impedance of between 6 and 16
ohms. If you use speakers with a lower impedance,
and use the amplifier at high volume levels for a long
period of time, the built-in amp protection circuit may
be activated.
• Other models: You can connect speakers with an
impedance of between 4 and 16 ohms. If the impedance
of any of the connected speakers is 4 ohms or
more, but less than 6 ohms, be sure to set the minimum
speaker impedance to “4ohms”"

The 707 says the same thing (it's 4-ohm stable) but makes no distinction between the north american and other models. The 707 is the one that's THX certified. Think this is just a legal thing? I'll have to call Onkyo.

Bear: I'd like to go with a standalone amp, but that's going to have to be something that's later on. I'd have to have a pretty decent receiver anyway to have preamp outputs and use an amp. The room is also pretty small btw. Thanks for the recommendations, I've never shopped home amps.

[Bear]

Well, if you're willing to "man up" for an NAD M2, direct digital amplifier.

Baby steps, Jon. Baby steps. Let's not scare him off just yet... NAD makes some good gear, but my point was more along the lines that there are a number of manufacturers out there making good gear, especially in high-performing solid state amps, assuming your power needs aren't too enormous (e.g., the jump in price from 200 to 300 watts per channel is usually a multiple of what you pay going from 100 to 200 wpc).

The 707 says the same thing (it's 4-ohm stable) but makes no distinction between the north american and other models. The 707 is the one that's THX certified. Think this is just a legal thing? I'll have to call Onkyo.

It's a current/heat thing. One of the ways that you "cheap out" on the amplification section of a receiver is to put an inferior front-end power supply on it and to decrease the size (weight) of the heat sinks. As a result, you can end up overheating the amplifier, which will kick in the thermal protection circuits so that you don't literally cook it. Remember: Power = Volts * Current = Resistance * Current^2. When the resistance goes down, the current increases for a given wattage, and current equals heat since no amplifier is 100% efficient at delivering the current from the wall into the speaker.

[dpg]

The brad nails won't keep the pressure as well as clamps, I don't think. I could be way wrong on this though, as I've not used them that way before. Glue takes a while to set (20+ minutes), if you get everything together and dry fit to make sure everything is happy, you should be able to glue and clamp the entire thing within the set period. Also, you might consider using a roller or a brush to apply the glue to speed that process up and get a nice even coat.

I think gmed used brads for his translam if I'm remembering. Not sure if it was for strength or to keep clamping pressure. This should be pretty easy to test though. Maybe I'll glue each peice, clamp, shoot brads, unclamp, do next peice, and see how many times I can do that in a 15 minute window, then clamp all of those peices to let it set. The brads should keep it aligned, and I'll still get my clamping pressure.

[numberoneoppa]

I think gmed used brads for his translam if I'm remembering. Not sure if it was for strength or to keep clamping pressure. This should be pretty easy to test though. Maybe I'll glue each peice, clamp, shoot brads, unclamp, do next peice, and see how many times I can do that in a 15 minute window, then clamp all of those peices to let it set. The brads should keep it aligned, and I'll still get my clamping pressure.

Yeah, as long as everything is flush and happy, this doesn't sounds too horrible. :P

[---k---]

Baby steps, Jon. Baby steps. Let's not scare him off just yet...

Agreed. Lets be nice to the guy. He probably has lots of time and projects ahead of him.



I remember reading a thread a while ago where a guy did a design very similar to what your doing. He had some cracking show up between the layers later on. Iirc, people theorized that he put a lot of moisture into the wood with all the glue. Then, as it dried it shrank and cracked. Just something to keep in mind. Maybe let it dry out before gluing the front baffle and top on. There probably are a few other things you may want to do to minimize future movement problems, but I don't know what they are.

[Steidl Guitars]

Maybe I'll glue each peice, clamp, shoot brads, unclamp, do next peice, and see how many times I can do that in a 15 minute window, then clamp all of those peices to let it set.

When you set the clamps (your second step), the lams will skate, and you'll be pulling your hair out!

I suspect that using a dowel might be the easiest way to go to ensure things are lined up perfectly while freeing you from trying to wrestle skating lams. I've been there...

Perhaps drilling the holes 1/64" or so larger than the dowel would help by allowing you to drive the thing as it gets covered with glue. You might have 15 minutes of open time, but the glue starts to set long before that.

It's going to be fun!

[dpg]

Agreed. Lets be nice to the guy. He probably has lots of time and projects ahead of him.



I remember reading a thread a while ago where a guy did a design very similar to what your doing. He had some cracking show up between the layers later on. Iirc, people theorized that he put a lot of moisture into the wood with all the glue. Then, as it dried it shrank and cracked. Just something to keep in mind. Maybe let it dry out before gluing the front baffle and top on. There probably are a few other things you may want to do to minimize future movement problems, but I don't know what they are.

Ugh, yes, entitled "How to make a grown man cry": http://htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=32713

That thread had ME almost crying and it's not even my speaker. There were quite a few possible explanations people offered, some more realistic than others. My plan is to try and get it glued and sealed (inside and out) before it starts getting humid. I want it to be nice and dry and then seal it like crazy. I'll be using Zinsser sanding sealer. The other big thing is I'm not gluing the baffle, but holding it down with bolts from the inside. Some people said that the expansion/contraction from the translam was fighting with the glued on baffle. Hopefully, floating the baffle and going overboard with sealer will relieve some of this.

[dpg]

When you set the clamps (your second step), the lams will skate, and you'll be pulling your hair out!

I suspect that using a dowel might be the easiest way to go to ensure things are lined up perfectly while freeing you from trying to wrestle skating lams. I've been there...

Perhaps drilling the holes 1/64" or so larger than the dowel would help by allowing you to drive the thing as it gets covered with glue. You might have 15 minutes of open time, but the glue starts to set long before that.

It's going to be fun!

You're right about the skating... I guess dowels it is. I'll make a jig for a few pieces, dry fit them and see how it looks. Thanks!

[cjd]

Use white glue instead of the yellow glue - it has a longer set time. Will give you just a tiny bit longer to work.

You can also glue up each one individually. Side clamp (will take a few clamps to get all the directions covered) to force it to line up correctly, then clamp to compress.

C

[dpg]

Alright, before I start gluing I've decided to make some changes, and I now have some concerns I could use some advice on.

1. I'm ditching the tritrix per feedback. I can spring for the RS drivers and I want to go with one of CJD's RS150 designs with the Seas tweeter. This seems like a no-brainer (now I just need to find something to do with the tritrix!).

2. Rather than paint the front baffle black, I want to get real wood and stain it very dark, almost black. This will actually match my entertainment center nicely and I'll get to see some grain. Jon, I'd love to do this with bamboo, but from what I understand it won't take a very dark stain well. I'm thinking of getting walnut and gluing MDF or something to help keep resonances down. Would maybe just some deadening from PE do the trick (prob not huh)?

3. Lastly, I'm concerned about the height of the drivers and how it'll affect imaging. I currently have a 52" LCD on a stand / entertainment center (the one in the pic below), which will eventually be replaced by a 100" fixed projection screen. The problem is that I don't have room on either side of the screen for speakers... the L/R/C all have to fit under the projection screen. I hacked together a crappy Sketchup drawing, pic below.



My ears are about 36" off the floor. With the MTMs, the box will only be 7.5 inches off the floor, which puts the tweeter about 18 inches down from my ears. It I do an MT, the tweeters will be about 10 inches down from my ears. At 10 feet away, this puts the MTM tweeter 8.25 degrees down, and the MT tweeter 4.7 degrees down. Either way I can tilt the speakers up a little toward the listener. But with the screen mounted so high, I'm concerned the stage will be too low for an MTM. The is primarily for HT, and I want to feel immersed in the action. So now I'm thinking, what if I do an MT to bring the stage up a little? Will that help or is the difference negligible? What would you guys do if you were in my position (with my budget)?

The pros/cons as I see them: MT will raise the stage, easy 8 ohm load for a receiver, but reduced sensitivity. Yes I have the cuts made for the taller MTM, but I can just take rings out to take it from 21" to 12" and use the extras for the surrounds (which I was going to do in translam anyway).

What do you think... will the MTM angled work or should I switch to an MT? CJD, I'm thinking of your RS150 MT... is the crossover proven on that design?

Thanks for all the help!

[cjd]

What you really need is a 2.5 way TMM.

Build that baffle as removable and just use MDF or something initially. Try the MTM. If it really doesn't do the trick, we can see about working up a 2.5 way variation.

A little tilt won't hurt to be sure.

C

[dpg]

What you really need is a 2.5 way TMM.

Build that baffle as removable and just use MDF or something initially. Try the MTM. If it really doesn't do the trick, we can see about working up a 2.5 way variation.

A little tilt won't hurt to be sure.

C

Hehe, hell yeah TMM :W. If it's not a big deal to have the speakers that low, I don't mind playing with baffles. *Only* 8 degrees doesn't sound that bad on paper, but it just feels weird seeing the tweeter so low with the screen so high.

[Bear]

Alright, before I start gluing I've decided to make some changes, and I now have some concerns I could use some advice on.

1. I'm ditching the tritrix per feedback. I can spring for the RS drivers and I want to go with one of CJD's RS150 designs with the Seas tweeter. This seems like a no-brainer (now I just need to find something to do with the tritrix!).

2. Rather than paint the front baffle black, I want to get real wood and stain it very dark, almost black. This will actually match my entertainment center nicely and I'll get to see some grain. Jon, I'd love to do this with bamboo, but from what I understand it won't take a very dark stain well. I'm thinking of getting walnut and gluing MDF or something to help keep resonances down. Would maybe just some deadening from PE do the trick (prob not huh)?

3. Lastly, I'm concerned about the height of the drivers and how it'll affect imaging. I currently have a 52" LCD on a stand / entertainment center (the one in the pic below), which will eventually be replaced by a 100" fixed projection screen. The problem is that I don't have room on either side of the screen for speakers... the L/R/C all have to fit under the projection screen. I hacked together a crappy Sketchup drawing, pic below.



My ears are about 36" off the floor. With the MTMs, the box will only be 7.5 inches off the floor, which puts the tweeter about 18 inches down from my ears. It I do an MT, the tweeters will be about 10 inches down from my ears. At 10 feet away, this puts the MTM tweeter 8.25 degrees down, and the MT tweeter 4.7 degrees down. Either way I can tilt the speakers up a little toward the listener. But with the screen mounted so high, I'm concerned the stage will be too low for an MTM. The is primarily for HT, and I want to feel immersed in the action. So now I'm thinking, what if I do an MT to bring the stage up a little? Will that help or is the difference negligible? What would you guys do if you were in my position (with my budget)?

The pros/cons as I see them: MT will raise the stage, easy 8 ohm load for a receiver, but reduced sensitivity. Yes I have the cuts made for the taller MTM, but I can just take rings out to take it from 21" to 12" and use the extras for the surrounds (which I was going to do in translam anyway).

What do you think... will the MTM angled work or should I switch to an MT? CJD, I'm thinking of your RS150 MT... is the crossover proven on that design?

Thanks for all the help!

Your ears are going to be more forgiving about placement angles than your eyes or neck will be. If you are going to be installing a front projection screen, then that needs to anchor much of your placement geometry. If you can do it, target having your eye line about 1/3rd of the way up the screen. Few people can get away with this without risers, so you will then want to start elevating the bottom of the screen to get the requisite clearance for things like speakers, electronics, wife approval factor. Don't go too high, or neck strain or eyestrain will hinder your enjoyment. You may need to get a slightly smaller screen than you otherwise would want, but this will still be a great improvement visually with the right room/screen/projector combination.

After you get the screen approximately where you want it. Then see about the height you have available vis-a-vis MTM or TM options. Angling the speaker up towards your ears will help elevate the soundstage to being closer to the visual cues for action, though the "optimal" solution is an acoustically transparent screen -- at $$$$.

One option to consider is to use a manually retractable screen (Da-Lite High Power is a good choice) and have the screen pull down in front of the wall-mounted LCD. You can then use the LCD for day time viewing and the projector for movies at night (especially if you don't have good light control). If you are judicious in the width of the screen, you may be able to sneak the speakers onto the sides of the screen when its extended, giving you a fairly close to optimum layout for the home. You may want to scoot the seating a little closer to have the screen take up a larger field of view, but the feasibility of that depends upon the rest of the room layout.

[dpg]

Your ears are going to be more forgiving about placement angles than your eyes or neck will be. If you are going to be installing a front projection screen, then that needs to anchor much of your placement geometry. If you can do it, target having your eye line about 1/3rd of the way up the screen. Few people can get away with this without risers, so you will then want to start elevating the bottom of the screen to get the requisite clearance for things like speakers, electronics, wife approval factor. Don't go too high, or neck strain or eyestrain will hinder your enjoyment. You may need to get a slightly smaller screen than you otherwise would want, but this will still be a great improvement visually with the right room/screen/projector combination.

After you get the screen approximately where you want it. Then see about the height you have available vis-a-vis MTM or TM options. Angling the speaker up towards your ears will help elevate the soundstage to being closer to the visual cues for action, though the "optimal" solution is an acoustically transparent screen -- at $$$$.

One option to consider is to use a manually retractable screen (Da-Lite High Power is a good choice) and have the screen pull down in front of the wall-mounted LCD. You can then use the LCD for day time viewing and the projector for movies at night (especially if you don't have good light control). If you are judicious in the width of the screen, you may be able to sneak the speakers onto the sides of the screen when its extended, giving you a fairly close to optimum layout for the home. You may want to scoot the seating a little closer to have the screen take up a larger field of view, but the feasibility of that depends upon the rest of the room layout.

Thanks for the input Bear... you've eluded to my predicament. The riser is out of the question (wife). If I want a screen > 70", the speakers have to go below the screen because the door to my patio is on that wall and I'm out of wall space. So I have to find a happy medium between having the screen too high and having the speakers too low. I thought about the pull-down transparent screen with speakers behind but I really prefer a fixed screen (oh and I'm cheap).

So in order to get my eyes 1/3 the way up the screen, I would need to remove my entertainment center and put the speakers on the ground. I'm no doubt concerned about neck strain. 100" from 12 feet on a 1080p projector fits the FOV calculators I've played with. With the plans now, my eyes will be 7 inches above the bottom of the screen. Not ideal, but I'll project the image on the wall first to play with it, and if I need to go smaller, I'll go smaller. But no matter what, the bottom of the screen is going to stay in the same place because I want the speakers at a decent height. I thought about a pull-down screen, but the plan is to put this 52" in the other room and make this room the movie room.

It's definitely not the ideal room for a huge screen, but I really need it. And by "need", I mean really really really want it, haha.

[Bear]

If I want a screen > 70", the speakers have to go below the screen because the door to my patio is on that wall and I'm out of wall space. So I have to find a happy medium between having the screen too high and having the speakers too low. I thought about the pull-down transparent screen with speakers behind but I really prefer a fixed screen (oh and I'm cheap).

A pulldown is usually cheaper than an attractive fixed-frame, and I suspect that your wife may have some opinions on steps that would be necessary to make it light controlled...

So in order to get my eyes 1/3 the way up the screen, I would need to remove my entertainment center and put the speakers on the ground. I'm no doubt concerned about neck strain. 100" from 12 feet on a 1080p projector fits the FOV calculators I've played with. With the plans now, my eyes will be 7 inches above the bottom of the screen. Not ideal, but I'll project the image on the wall first to play with it, and if I need to go smaller, I'll go smaller. But no matter what, the bottom of the screen is going to stay in the same place because I want the speakers at a decent height. I thought about a pull-down screen, but the plan is to put this 52" in the other room and make this room the movie room.

Our screen bottom is approximately eye level and it is tolerable, but there's a lot of slouching on the couch.

It's definitely not the ideal room for a huge screen, but I really need it. And by "need", I mean really really really want it, haha.

You will not get me to contradict this. I'm currently on projector #12, I think. But this one is now more than a year old!

[Black300zx]

Awesome work so far! I'm in the middle of a pair of translam enclosures also, but for a pair of subs. I need to update that thread badly, but they're coming along.

I really like how you used the router to make the variable radius.

[xyrium]

DPG, I thought you mentioned that these will be sealed cabs. Not sure how the RS150s fare sealed. I believe they're suited towards a ported design. Others may disagree. For the specs on PE, I get an EBP of 96. That's pretty high for sealed.

What do you think guys?

[dpg]

DPG, I thought you mentioned that these will be sealed cabs. Not sure how the RS150s fare sealed. I believe they're suited towards a ported design. Others may disagree. For the specs on PE, I get an EBP of 96. That's pretty high for sealed.

What do you think guys?

Yes, they'll be sealed, but I'm making room for a port in case I decide to go with a smaller ported later on. CJD does have designs for a sealed cab and that's what I'm be going by. But yeah, the RS150 is clearly better suited for ported. I modeled an F3 of like 90hz in WinISD with the sealed cab I have now. The key here is that this will be mated with a front firing sub.

[cjd]

They cross OK at 80Hz sealed. F3 is around there.

[dpg]

updated first post with more pics

Man the weather has been really crappy and for a while there I was stuck shoveling on weekends. I managed to make some progress and just wanted to update this thread. I consolidated all the pictures and put some more pics in the first post.

[evilskillit]

Lookin really good. I can't wait to see some more progress! Hopefully the worst of the snow is over.

[cjd]

Agreed! Looking great.

Tons of pressure where I don't need to worry about the clamp flexing a tiny bit is where I LOVE having pipe clamps around. I usually combine a set of clamps with angle iron to spread out the force a little more if I'm really cranking things down.

[ClosetSciFiGeek]

Any updates on this great build. I was looking forward to some finished pictures and some listening impressions. I am helping a friend build dlr's Chameleon's using a very basic translam approach. I was inspired by your build to do this.

[dpg]

Any updates on this great build. I was looking forward to some finished pictures and some listening impressions. I am helping a friend build dlr's Chameleon's using a very basic translam approach. I was inspired by your build to do this.

Yes, I'm in the home stretch! The mains and stands have been sealed and have a single coat of polycrylic. The baffles are cut, primed, painted (black), and also have one coat of polycrylic. I'm looking to do at least two more coats all around.

I'm happy with how they're turning out, but I have just one problem... the enclosures got taller by about 1/4"!! I've been keeping them inside to aclimate to the house and then took them outside for a couple coats of shellac. They were outside for about two weeks, which is when it started warming up a bit here and getting some humidity. So I dry fit the MDF baffles on the weekend and they fit, but they're about 1/8" short on the top and bottom. The MDF is stable so it didn't expand like the mains, doh! I'll be keeping the mains inside for a while to see if they shrink a bit, but I'm not too optimistic because the molding in my house has even expanded with the weather.

It's too late now to do anything. I'm not going to recut the baffles out of MDF because the box will apparently shrink in the winter anyway and I'll be right back where I started. If/when I redo the baffles, I'll use a hardwood and position it so it will expand and contract vertically and hopefully the difference is bearable. But that's a long time from now unless I'm really displeased with how this turns out.

I'm not really concerned about ruining the enclosures with the baffle (as happened with a previously mentioned build) since I'm floating the baffles by affixing them from the rear with a big hole and washer. If there's any movement, it should slide.

I'm at work now, but I'll try to get some pics up sometime this week. I'm on track to finish this all within two weeks.

[dpg]

Updated the first post and website with some new pics. The next time I post pictures I think I'll be all done!

[ClosetSciFiGeek]

Wow, Good feedback on the baffle versus enclosure movement. I just started a translam version of dlr's Chameleon yesterday. Thankfully I already am using hardwood for the baffle, but good stuff to know about translams. Your rear ports look nice with the roundoff. The finished speaker should look wonderful.

[dpg]

I just started a translam version of dlr's Chameleon yesterday.

Very cool, I hope you post a build thread so we can see some pics!

[ClosetSciFiGeek]

It is much simpler than the build you did, but I probably should contribute something back. I will post some pics soon. Right now all I have are a zillion strips of 3/4" baltic birch cut.

[dpg]

Updated first post with more pics, still no drivers but the rest is done!

[Space]

Really nice work. The stands look cool, and so does the black & blonde color scheme. I was thinking they were awfully short until the shot with the projection screen. Makes sense how you have it, to fit your space.

[numberoneoppa]

Those things are sexual.

[ClosetSciFiGeek]

Excellent documentation. The best I have seen thus far on a translam build. Thanks for your contribution.

[john trials]

REALLY NICE looking speakers! Great job. I like the hidden screws used to retain the front baffle...that's a good idea for keeping things clean looking.

[Bear]

Beautiful work. This only re-energizes my desire to find a local CNC machine that will cut some wood for me. If I did this by hand, I think the first plates would decompose before I finished the last cut of the last plate. The stands are also amazing.

[Silentj20]

I don't post here often, but seeing your build and being a tritrix fan, I had to congratulate you on the great work! They look amazing.

[dpg]

Thanks for the comments guys! This really was a huge time investment: I think every weekend for the last few months at least. It required quite a bit of patience and I did have a few "oh cr*p what did I just do" moments. Hopefully the posts can help others who choose to go down this path.

I have an extra sheet and a half of BB I was going to use for the surrounds and use the same templates, but I think I've run out of juice. Those curved PE .25 cu.ft. boxes are looking good about now!

And regarding the height, I really wish I could have gone taller, but with my budget it was either that or the big screen, and the big screen won. If I end up hating the height, I'll splurge on a transparent screen and built the stands taller. Right now the speakers are at I think an 8 degree tilt to fire right at my ears.

Thanks again for the support, I really needed it. I'll post some more once the drivers are in.

[dpg]

Updated the first post with final pics and did my best to give listening impressions.

Big thanks to CJD and all those in this thread who helped with feedback. This is one of the most welcoming forums I've been on. No flame wars and you guys are quick to help. I'm 100% certain I couldn't of done this without you. Thank you so much

[evilskillit]

Those are some damn fine looking speakers. Everything I own is currently jealous. I wonder if anybody notices how awesome or if they're too busy just starting.

[RegulatorCT]

Well I'm inspired. I hope to work up the courage to start a a translam tritrix version. Looks like a alota work but definitely worth it!

Well done sir!