My NatP's - 1st time DIY, help needed!

[Frank2808]

Hi Bill,

The whole thing took me about 14 hours spread across 2 days. However, I was starting from the VERY basics of woodworking. For example, the first 2 hours were spent reading the manual for the table saw and router.

Now that all is said and done, I would certinally build these myself again. I learned SO much in the past 3 days. Not to mention the whole thing only cost me about $50. Borrow a router from someone (Every single tool I used on this project was borrowed... The only tools I actaully own are a hammer and a screwdriver ) and give it a shot. I found the experience really rewarding.

[BillPhillips]

Frank, you remind me of my Dad in 1953 when I built my Soap Box Derby car and in 1986 when he convinced me to sail, rather than ship, a boat back from Germany... Quote, "Billy, do it for the experience, you'll learn so much."

Unfortunately, 90% of the things I learned I never wanted to know... especially about myself! (To be honest, the 1953 experience has served me well, but the '86 event... was a tough lesson!)

Now, at these advanced years, presently remodeling a kitchen for she who must be obeyed... I feel guilty even thinking about assembling speakers into readymade enclosures, much less building the boxes...

You Frank... have my utmost respect ;x(

But for me, my origianl post stands, thank you for the thread :T

[Hdale85]

I just have to ask how did the sailing from germany go? And where were you going to?

[Frank2808]

Haha Bill - I'll keep that story in mind if I ever decide to buy a sail boat

I guess I can say it was a great experience now that's it's over with. I have to be honest, Sunday afternoon as I stood over a table saw in 100 degree heat, covered in saw dust and sweat, I nearly tossed them in the trash and ordered cabinets from PE

[BillPhillips]

The Dollar was high, the Deutsche Mark was low, the theory was great... out of Hamburg, up the Elbe, down the coast of Holland, across the Channel, Brighton, Portland Bill, Penzance, Horta (the Azores) -- three weeks -- Portland, Maine... with a thousand stories and one hurricane in between. 'Didn't go sailing again for two years

Gotta' go finish installation of her Range Hood so that I can rationalize spending some money with PartsExpress and some time soldering up the crossovers

Don't give up. Drink lots of water. Take frequent breaks. Repeat to yourself, often, "I am having FUN!"

[Dennis H]

Bill, been there done that. I sailed from Cal to Hawaii and back. We got nailed by several big storms with 40 foot waves and 70 knot winds. I puked my guts out, not to mention the thrill of having a few tons of water landing on your head and trying to wash you out of the boat. Somehow I survived the whole thing and it's one of those "character builders" of my youth. I'm glad I did it but I wouldn't want to do it again. Island hopping is big fun; sailing in a storm in the dark 1000 miles from land isn't.

[BillPhillips]

In the words of the Great Frank2808, "It was a great experience now that's it's over."

We should form an Association of Retired Sailors Turned Speaker Builders.

[Frank2808]

Hey guys, I'm about to order my next batch of parts from PE so I can finish the cabinet this weekend and get going on the XO.

I've read several posts concerning too much or too little dampening material. What would be the optimal thickness, size, and location of dampening material for this type of enclosure? I've never owned a speaker that cost more then $50 so I really have no point of reference to know what the speaker is supposed to sound like....

Also, I'm going to purchase a 1/2" flush cut bit for trimming the sides, is the 3/4" flat bottom bit what I need to cut the back of the baffles around the woofers?

Thanks!!

[Frank2808]

This weekend I was able to cut the baffles and use a flush trim bit to make everything smooth and even. One question, what router bit do I use to cut the recesses behind the woofers? I went to the hardware store and didn't see any bits that looked like it fit the bill. Any ideas?

Thanks!

[stidrvr]

Something like this will work. There called a "Chamfer Bit' I sure a 45 degree will be enough.

[ThomasW]

is the 3/4" flat bottom bit what I need to cut the back of the baffles around the woofers?

Thanks!!

That's what I use. Just remove small depths at a time.

One question, what router bit do I use to cut the recesses behind the woofers?

Either a chamfer bit as illustrated above or a 3/4" round-over bit

[Frank2808]

Hey guys! Good news! I ordered the parts for 1 speaker from PE today! I know, I know, it's stupid to place two orders but it's killing me to let the project sit with no progress for so long! I'll be ordering the parts for the other speaker in 2 weeks. (Next pay-day )

Quick question, how do I go about testing the XO once I have it put together?

[Frank2808]

Hello again! A quick update:

My order from PE arrived in just over 24hrs (just about the only good thing about living in Ohio ).

I checked and the recesses for the drivers fit just right on one baffle and not at all on the other. Convenient that I only have the parts to assemble 1 speaker ) No matter, practice makes perfect and I'm actually looking forward to cutting another baffle using everything I learned the first two times around. This afternoon I picked up a round over bit to round the sides of the cabinet and the rear of the driver holes. I'll be working on completing my first NatP by the end of the weekend. I'll be posting pictures soon.

Also- As my contribution to the community I plan to create a "Nat P for Dummies" post where I will detail each step of cabinet and XO building geared towards people like me who know nothing about woodworking or electronics. Before I spend an afternoon putting that together, would there be any interest in such a post?

[royceb]

Before I spend an afternoon putting that together, would there be any interest in such a post?

Frank,

As a fellow newb to woodworking, I have been looking at your thread with great interest. The Google Sketch Up you posted was a real help to me. Count me as someone who would be interested.

[Frank2808]

Ok, after many trials and tribulations I have finally finished all the cutting on one enclosure and have the drivers mounted in it so I can start building and testing the XO. Here's a few pics of the baffle with the drivers in it. Wish me luck with the XO.

[Exocer]

Looking good!
My Natalie P's have been built for a little over a month and I still haven't recessed behind the drivers. I'l just use my trusty dremel for that

[Frank2808]

Hey guys,

I ordered my stuffing and laminate from PE today. A quick question... I found a guide on PE describing how to apply vinyl laminate to a square cabinet. My baffle has rounded edges.. can someone suggest the best way to apply vinyl laminate to a box with the sides of the baffle rounded (see pics above)

Thanks!

[Frank2808]

Well my first XO is done and I'm testing it now. Even with only 1 speaker the natP is pretty darn sweet. I can't wait to finish the other one!!

[ThomasW]

If possible I'd place both the small inductors on edge instead of having them lying down. There's less interaction with the large inductor that way.

Sorry but I don't have a clue about the vinyl and rounded corners.

[Frank2808]

Hi guys! Another update..

I've been constantly testing my 1 completed NatP over the past few days and I have to say, it's quite amazing. A few developments:

I decided to cut a new baffle because the one I had was a few mm off on all sides and I have a feeling that's going to look bad once I apply the laminate. This time I'm going to cut the front 1/8 of an inch bigger on all sides and then use my flush trim bit to shave it down perfectly flush. Doing that tonight! :T

I spent a good hour with my ear about 2" away from each woofer and playing with the settings on my amplifier. I noticed some distortion in one of the woofers when I was listening at low volume. I eliminated the possibility of a wiring issue by connecting it to the other woofer's lead. Called PE, turns out the voice coil is rubbing or something... but PE customer service was AWESOME. The guy said he'd test the new one to make sure it works and send it out asap with a box to send back the old one. LOVE THAT! I should have one cabinet completely sealed and laminated this weekend... I'll post pics.

EDIT: I also stood the small inductors on edge as Thomas suggested ;x(

[Frank2808]

Well guys, it's 2am and I just completed my 1st natP. WOW. I can't wait to hear what it sounds like when I have both done. Anyway, I recut the baffle and I'm pleased with the results. Some pics...

New baffle



The whole package dry fitted





Crossover after hotglue and secured to cabinet



Getting close...



Yay!

[ThomasW]

Looks great....... :T

I'll put a link to this thread in the first NatP post to serve as a guide for those wanting to scratch build the boxes.

[BillPhillips]

Hello again! A quick update:
----snip----
Also- As my contribution to the community I plan to create a "Nat P for Dummies" post where I will detail each step of cabinet and XO building geared towards people like me who know nothing about woodworking or electronics. Before I spend an afternoon putting that together, would there be any interest in such a post?

Me 2... I yam definitely interested!

[Frank2808]

Hey guys, 1 last question.

Does the location and size of the holes in the brace make a difference? I've seen a few build the cabinets with no brace at all so I'm assuming it doesn't matter? I ask because the center hole in my brace doesn't sit completely flush with the port (as shown in the main NatP post). Also the end of the port overlaps the two larger holes by a little bit.

any help would be awesome! Thanks!

[ThomasW]

Your braces look fine. Yes a cabinet this size should be braced.

[Frank2808]

Ok an update!! My lonely NatP now has a twin sister I spent the weekend in the garage building the matching cabinet. This was WAY easier the 2 (err 4th) time around. Did the whole thing in an afternoon.

I decided that I didn't like the all black laminate I used so I tore it off and I'm going to try something different. Pictures soon!

Just some fun facts:
Cabinets built: 4
Cabinets thrown away: 2
Baffles built : 5
Baffles Thrown away: 3

Hahah I basically built a 5.1 HT set and threw 1/2 in the trash. Practice makes prefect

Next up, subwoofer. I'm hoping that's a little easier.

[Frank2808]

Ok all my parts came today. 2am.. work in the morning. For now, 1 cabinet 100% done, sealed, and tested. The other one will be done tomorrow night. Holy cow these things sound awesome.

Some pics of the final product. Not perfect but not bad for my 1st try.

[Exocer]

Looks Excellent!
Congrats. Wait till you get them both complete...bet you can't wait

[Frank2808]

OK, IM DONE.. Excuse my language but, holy shit. ;x(

I can hear every little twang of a guitar string.. and parts of songs that I never knew were there!! You can see the little cubes hanging on the wall next to the TV.. that's what I'm replacing if that tells you anything. I'd like to thank all of you for putting up with me for the past 2 months. I really appreciate it. :T

[jonathanb3478]

OK, IM DONE.. Excuse my language but, holy shit. ;x(

I can hear every little twang of a guitar string.. and parts of songs that I never knew were there!!

Congratulations! :T

It must be even better to get that kind of performance from something you built yourself. I look forward to it, personally.

What plans do you have for stands to space them further apart?

[Frank2808]

Hi Jonathan,

Since I had to build the cabinets multiple times before I got it right, I have plenty of left over MDF. I plan to make some DIY speaker stands with the left over MDF and 3" PVC filled with sand. That's planned for this weekend!

Would you mind suggesting a single driver sub to match with my natPs? I was considering "The Drake" DIY in the Parts Express gallery. I believe this uses a 12" Dayton driver and a 1000W plate amp. Should I be looking at something else for the same money?

[jonathanb3478]

Well, I believe you would be spending too much on the amp and not enough on the driver.

I also notice that the Drake project is a very small 12" sub.

I would suggest that you change amps, and I would offer the opinion that a sub is one of those things where bigger is just better for performance. Lord knows there are other concerns besides performance, however.

Well, the Drake's driver/amp cost is ~$455, at the moment. I would suggest an amp I originally saw posted by ThomasW at another forum:

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/Nady-XA900-Pro-Stereo-Power-Amp?sku=482052&src=3WFRWXX

It does offer less power, but it is also $145 cheaper right now. It may become even cheaper in the future, as I assume the "special" on the PE plate amp used in the Drake will end at some point. Perhaps that is an erroneous assumption, however. I will say, that with this amp, you need a driver/enclosure combination that will stay flat, deeper. This is so you do not need equalization. Otherwise, you will spend the money saved on the amp for an equalization unit.

For this reason, I would spend what was left after getting the amp on an excellent driver and put it in a rather large ported enclosure. Since we now have $275 with which to source a driver, and that could go up to ~$350 by the time you actually get the parts, you would have many options.

All this assumes you would be willing to build a bigger sub. I see that being a major stumbling block for you, or I think you would have been considering a different sub design in the first place.

If you are looking at smaller sub designs, my suggestion to you is to get creative in solutions to the issue(s) causing you to look for a small form-factor sub. (bribery???)

Good luck with what ever you decide!

[ThomasW]

Would you mind suggesting a single driver sub to match with my natPs? I was considering "The Drake" DIY in the Parts Express gallery. I believe this uses a 12" Dayton driver and a 1000W plate amp. Should I be looking at something else for the same money?

If you must have that small a box then copy John Krutke's (zaph audio) version, it's better than the Drake. If you can live with a larger box there are much better options.

[rumatt]

If you must have that small a box then copy John Krutke's (zaph audio) version

Any chance you have a link? I don't see it on zaphaudio.com

[ThomasW]

http://www.zaphaudio.com/archives-20.zip

[rumatt]

Great thanks.

Ironically, I was considering making almost that same exact sub already! I guess it's a good design!

If you were building a 2 ft^3 sealed sub, I imagine that driver is the best bang-for-the-buck in its class. Any guess what would be the next step up?

[ThomasW]

If you were building a 2 ft^3 sealed sub, I imagine that driver is the best bang-for-the-buck in its class. Any guess what would be the next step up?

The next step up in 12" drivers would be the TC-Sounds TC-1000
http://www.tcsounds.com/tc1000.htm

If I were building a step up it would be a 3 cu ft box and the SoundSplinter RL-p15" driver

[Inu_Yasha]

If you notice, a lot of us are running RL-p15's as our subs so that must tell you something To be honest, I couldn't imagine how much of a difference a 15 could be over a 12, but it's something that has to be heard rather than explained.

[Frank2808]

Awesome guys! Thanks for the info. I'll think I'll build the Zeph since space is a bit of a concern. I live in a 1 bedroom loft so a giant enclosure is a bit out of my league. I think that 12" will do nicely since I'm currently using a sub with an 8" driver that i got for free when I got my TV

I'll get cutting this weekend and post pics...

[Frank2808]

Okie, I made myself a pair of speaker stands for around $28. They work great! 3" PVC filled with sand.

[jonathanb3478]

Those stands look great for $28. :T

But what do you think of the NatPs now that you have been able to experiment with better placement? Any new thoughts?

[Frank2808]

Sorry for the delay, I wanted to give it a week or so I listening until I posted any impressions. You'll have to excuse my crude descriptions but I really have no idea what I'm talking about

I finally understand what people mean when they say "front soundstage". One of the biggest differences I noticed over my cheap speakers is that it sounds like the sound is coming out of the entire wall and can't be localized to the speakers. That is just plain awesome to me.

I also noticed what a HUGE difference a set of nice heavy stands make. The bass is much "punchier" and it gives the impression that the sound is really "anchored" to the floor, if that makes any sense.

These speakers seem to reproduce the recording perfectly. When the source is average (either due to how it was mastered or because the mp3 is average quality) the sound is average.. But when you get a really well mixed Dolby digital 2.0 source is where these speakers really shine. I happen to have a Dual Disc of John Mayers new CD lying around. The DVD side has the whole album in Dolby Digital 2.0. COMPLETELY AMAZING. I must have listened to the CD 100 times in a week and I don't even care for John Mayer that much

Overall I am more then pleased. The speakers sound excellent and I feel really good that I was able to complete a DIY. THANKS so much to everyone here for all the help.

The next stage: I build a 2 cu/ft sealed enclosure yesterday for the Zaph 12" sub project mentioned above. Next week I'm going to order the sub and then the plate amp the week after. I'll be posting pics of course.

[ThomasW]

Yep proper stands and placement make all the difference.... :T