Question about my NatPs

[royceb]

Hello everyone. I have been an avid follower of this site for about 5 years now which inspired me to to do my first DYI build with the NatP design. They have been a pleasure to listen to since then. The are currently sitting in an 18'x13' dedicated HT room, powered by a Crown XLS 402 amp. Come September, I will be moving to a newly constructed home and I will have a 30'x16' room dedicated to my movie watching and music listening. So my question is, will the NatPs still be a good solution as mains for a room that size? If not, any recommendations for another build for a room that size?

EDIT : for a new build recommendation, my budget would be under $1000.

[cjd]

Well...

If you want to build something and keep the budget well in check, the Garnacha would turn those NatP's into 3-ways with a different cabinet and the addition of a RS-150 as a mid, but you could use the RS-180's and RS28A you already have.

Or, you could keep those and add a pair of RS270's underneath and build the Canaiolo...

That's just me picking some options out of stuff I've designed. There are SO many options out there, and you really haven't given us much to go on as far as what you might like to gain. You *could* go bigger if you wanted. Or different. Or...

The NatP can probably fill that up pretty well, but a 3-way will give you better control over detail as you crank it up.

[royceb]

Well...

If you want to build something and keep the budget well in check, the Garnacha would turn those NatP's into 3-ways with a different cabinet and the addition of a RS-150 as a mid, but you could use the RS-180's and RS28A you already have.

Or, you could keep those and add a pair of RS270's underneath and build the Canaiolo...

That's just me picking some options out of stuff I've designed. There are SO many options out there, and you really haven't given us much to go on as far as what you might like to gain. You *could* go bigger if you wanted. Or different. Or...

The NatP can probably fill that up pretty well, but a 3-way will give you better control over detail as you crank it up.

Thanks, cjd. I guess my main concern is whether an MTM bookshelf design would struggle to fill a room with that space. I would probably like to get a bit more extension below 150hz. I am pretty much still a newbie at this despite having built the NatPs, the NeoCC, Zaph mini monitor, and a sub.

Those are my thoughts right now. If you think I am overlooking something, I would really appreciate any advice. I am even thinking about replacing my Axiom QS4 surrounds with the Modula On-Wall Design or the NatPs.

[cjd]

Are yours sealed or ported? The RS180, in the right size box, reaches into the mid 30's with authority. So saying you want more below 150Hz leaves me a little unsure.

[royceb]

Are yours sealed or ported? The RS180, in the right size box, reaches into the mid 30's with authority. So saying you want more below 150Hz leaves me a little unsure.

Ported. I have run a bunch of tests using the REW v5 and there has always been a significant drop around 80 hz when I would cross the speakers below 120. I worked with the guys who hang out at the REW forum and they suggested that I keep my mains crossed at 100hz as most 6.5" drivers weren't really meant for going much lower than that. But, when I run Audessey, it always sets the NatPs to full range.

[cjd]

Something else is going on then. I cross at 70Hz in my HT with the RS180 sealed. It's definitely capable. There could be room placement issues, or even phase issues in wiring (speaker or room) otherwise causing some of that.

[peepaj]

Going to that big a room, I would consider usinr the NatP's for rear speakers and building a 3-way for the mains. Here's a couple that use the same type drivers that might work well.
The RS TMWW

http://htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=15323

and
The Khanspires

http://htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=26309

[---k---]

Well, it depends....

I think a lot of normal people would be happy with Nat P in that room. Many of us probably not. If possible, I would probably wait and try them out. I say that because the options of getting that quality level, but more output start to get expensive. Especially when you start talking about matching center channels and surrounds. - You said movies, so this is an assumption -

I like where CJD is going with his recommendations. For big rooms, if you're looking for movie theater experience, you'll want something big.

I also agree with CJD that something is going on with your NatP if the bass is rolled off like that. You should have solid bass down to 70hz - at least. I don't care what the RoomEQ folks say. I would check it with test tones off a CD (download from the internet, such as realtraps.com ) and if there is still a problem, I would probably check the wiring, are the RS 180s out of phase?

[royceb]

Well, it depends....

I think a lot of normal people would be happy with Nat P in that room. Many of us probably not. If possible, I would probably wait and try them out. I say that because the options of getting that quality level, but more output start to get expensive. Especially when you start talking about matching center channels and surrounds. - You said movies, so this is an assumption -

I like where CJD is going with his recommendations. For big rooms, if you're looking for movie theater experience, you'll want something big.

I also agree with CJD that something is going on with your NatP if the bass is rolled off like that. You should have solid bass down to 70hz - at least. I don't care what the RoomEQ folks say. I would check it with test tones off a CD (download from the internet, such as realtraps.com ) and if there is still a problem, I would probably check the wiring, are the RS 180s out of phase?

I went through the REW thread again to refresh my memory and I recall doing close to the NatP measurements without the sub and the response was excellent even below 70hz. I think the problem is that my seating is placed in a room node. When I get the new room later this year, I will retest the response as I will have much more flexibility in terms of placement of speakers and seating.

I like CJDs recommendations, too. And I wouldn't consider myself normal when it comes to my music and movie room.

[royceb]

I thought over the suggestions a bit more today and definitely won't be looking to build something bigger until I have the new room built. But, I have been thinking about replacing my Axiom QS4 surrounds for a while now. They are merely okay but I was thinking about the In-Khan-Netos as a replacement. I do about 70/30 for HT/music. I listen to both SACD/DVD-A and 2 channel. Assuming that I keep the NatPs as mains, would the In-Khans be a good match for surround duty?

[fbov]

Hello everyone. ...my first DYI build with the NatP design...currently sitting in an 18'x13' dedicated HT room, ... moving to a ... 30'x16' room dedicated to my movie watching and music listening. So my question is, will the NatPs still be a good solution as mains for a room that size? ...

My room is ~22x16 and a pair will fill it nicely. That's what you asked, and what most responses have addressed but I don't think that's what you wanted to know.

What I'm hearing is that you're moving into a new listening space, and you want recommendations for setting up that space.

Sound sources are one aspect. Another is the room, equally important to the result. The final aspect is "desired outcome." What sort of program played how loud with what levels of linear and non-linear distortion?

Therefore, I'd suggest you tell us a bit more about your new space. How will you lay it out (listening position matters)? What were you planning by way of speakers (stereo vs multichannel, full range vs cross to sub, number of subs, etc.)? What sort of furnishing are planned (wall/floor treatment as well as furniture)?

In my similar-size room, 7.1 system, 75dB is "loud" for music unless I'm in the mood. I'm not using 1/10 Watt at this level. System capacity is all about headroom, which depends on what you listen to, and how loud.

Tell us more!
Frank

[royceb]

My room is ~22x16 and a pair will fill it nicely. That's what you asked, and what most responses have addressed but I don't think that's what you wanted to know.

What I'm hearing is that you're moving into a new listening space, and you want recommendations for setting up that space.

Sound sources are one aspect. Another is the room, equally important to the result. The final aspect is "desired outcome." What sort of program played how loud with what levels of linear and non-linear distortion?

Therefore, I'd suggest you tell us a bit more about your new space. How will you lay it out (listening position matters)? What were you planning by way of speakers (stereo vs multichannel, full range vs cross to sub, number of subs, etc.)? What sort of furnishing are planned (wall/floor treatment as well as furniture)?

In my similar-size room, 7.1 system, 75dB is "loud" for music unless I'm in the mood. I'm not using 1/10 Watt at this level. System capacity is all about headroom, which depends on what you listen to, and how loud.

Tell us more!
Frank

I'd be happy to tell you more. I have attached the a picture of the plans as reference. I don't have the exact measurements but I think the plan

My plan is to put my screen on the north wall in the plans and put my equipment and shelves for Blu-Rays, music, etc in that alcove behind that wall. I will have two rows of seating with a riser. The floor will be carpeted and the builder has agreed to do soundproofing and purchase some sound treatments like bass traps. I northwest corner will be used for my popcorn machine and maybe a bar (it's a nice to have, not required).

As for the equipment, I plan on buying a Denon 4311 (135 watts per channel). My front speakers are now the NatPs, my center is the NeoCC, my surrounds are the Axiom Q4, and I used my first ever build, a Dayton starter kit, for the rears. If my NatPs are sufficient for that size of room, I will happily keep them as my fronts. I have planned on replacing the QS4s as I do listen to quite a bit of multi-channel music in addition to movies (About 70/30 HT-to-Music) and I think that direct radiating speakers would suit me better than the smaller QS4s. That's why I asked about the In-Khan Netos as surrounds paired with the NatPs. The look like they would fit the bill as on-wall surrounds.

I also listen to a lot of 2 channel music - mostly classic rock and modern rock. I am thinking about buying a record player to listen to classic albums in their original format. When I listen to music, I have my current receiver (Onkyo 805) set to "Direct Mode".

I was also thinking about cjd's suggestion of the Canaiolo design to replace the NatPs up front. But I would probably need to replace the NeoCC as a center as well? I think my mind is writing checks my bank account can't cash on that front.

As for my sub, it also a 15" DIY sealed box that I recently did last year. I think we are not supposed to discuss this particular brand here so I'll just leave it at that. I am happy with it but I do not have plans in the near future to build another one, especially if I tackle the Caniolo or 4 In-Khans.

75 db is just fine for me. I don't need my ears to bleed. I hope I covered everything for you.

[fbov]

North is up? Two NatP's and a Neo CC will fill that space nearly as well as mine, but...

May I recommend Toole's book? Best $45 you can spend before building.

http://www.amazon.com/Sound-Reproduction-Acoustics-Psychoacoustics-Loudspeakers/dp/0240520092/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1334085639&sr=1-3

I'm looking at your diagram and I think I can see what you plan. Being below grade, you will have strong wall reflections, but you also have a couple adjacent spaces (heater closet and alcove) that you may be able to use. Where some see an infintie baffle for a subwoofer, I tend to see diaphragmatic absorbers; mine are paneling and sliding glass doors. Alton Everest is the authority for acoustic treatments, if I could only get it out of my in-box...

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=500-150&scqty=1

You are likely aware that the vast majority of multichannel program is mastered in 5.1. If you're going to add channels, I suggest you ask if "side" and "rear" aren't somewhat redundant with video on a long wall. My 7.1 has "wide front" speakers (via Audyssey DSX). Your Denon will also have the option, one of the few features (along with HDMI) your 805 lacks that you may actually use.

Given the speakers aren't the weak point, my I suggest you see how the current set-up sounds before you build something new. That allows you to identify a clear goal for the upgrade, and so focus your spending where it matters to you. In my case, that's been more NatP's... (second pair nearing completion).

Have fun,
Frank

[royceb]

North is up? Two NatP's and a Neo CC will fill that space nearly as well as mine, but...

May I recommend Toole's book? Best $45 you can spend before building.

http://www.amazon.com/Sound-Reproduction-Acoustics-Psychoacoustics-Loudspeakers/dp/0240520092/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1334085639&sr=1-3

I'm looking at your diagram and I think I can see what you plan. Being below grade, you will have strong wall reflections, but you also have a couple adjacent spaces (heater closet and alcove) that you may be able to use. Where some see an infintie baffle for a subwoofer, I tend to see diaphragmatic absorbers; mine are paneling and sliding glass doors. Alton Everest is the authority for acoustic treatments, if I could only get it out of my in-box...

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=500-150&scqty=1

You are likely aware that the vast majority of multichannel program is mastered in 5.1. If you're going to add channels, I suggest you ask if "side" and "rear" aren't somewhat redundant with video on a long wall. My 7.1 has "wide front" speakers (via Audyssey DSX). Your Denon will also have the option, one of the few features (along with HDMI) your 805 lacks that you may actually use.

Given the speakers aren't the weak point, my I suggest you see how the current set-up sounds before you build something new. That allows you to identify a clear goal for the upgrade, and so focus your spending where it matters to you. In my case, that's been more NatP's... (second pair nearing completion).

Have fun,
Frank

Thanks for the advice. What will you be using your second pair of NatPs for?

One of the things I like about the Denon is the wide front speakers. I was thinking the In-Khans or the Modula MT would be great to handle that duty, but that it is also down the road.

EDIT: I ordered that Alton Everest book for my Kindle as well

[fbov]

When this pair is done, I can finish the system
CC - Modula MTM CC
L/R - NatP 65 liter tower, shielded, RS28-A
Wide L/R - NatP 20 liter bookshelf, unshielded, RS28-F
Surround - Continuum (Jeff Bagby TM featuring RS28A)

Listen to a DSX wide channel and you'll realize it's just as loud as the inner L/R speakers. I wanted the "front five" to have equal capability, but was curious about driver changes (shielding on the RS180, dome material on RS28), as well as the difference in mid-bass between ported and sealed.

Continuum is a personal favorite design, from the first time I heard them. They fill a room with sound, while they themselves disappear, so it seems a good choice for surrounds. Unfortunately, I'm also aiming for equal sensitivity at all positions and these can't keep up with the MTMs.

One subtlety using Audyssey, obvious upon reflection, is that it sets speaker levels based on the lowest sensitivity, and them attenuates all the other channels to match. I used an omni surround (clone of Linkwitz' Pluto) and found the NatP's were -9dB. The little, low-power omni was getting 8x more power than the main speakers. Can you spell "weak link?" Working on a way to fix that now... once I get these NatPs done... and finish a second subwoofer build... at least it keeps me off the streets at night...

HAve fun,
Frank