Small Dorm Speaker System

[RubberDucky]

I live in a small military dorm and I am looking for some new speakers. Up till now I have been using a 2.1 Klipsh Promedia system, connected directly to my PC. The speakers are no longer functioning properly, so I figure it is time to get some new ones. I have a decent amount of space when I move things around but I was thinking about upgrading to a surround setup. I thought this might be a chance to build my own system.

What I am looking for:

-Small system
-2.1 or 5.1 system
-Good all around speakers for Gaming/Movies/Music (I know they wont be perfect for any given task but I'd like a Jack of All Trades)
-Boom For My Buck
-DIY or Order online
-This system will be hooked up to my PC and/or PS3

Thanks for your tips!

[Hdale85]

https://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php?40814-The-Schlafmutzes-Mini-MT%92s-design-and-progress

[RubberDucky]

https://www.htguide.com/forum/showth...n-and-progress

Wow those look awesome, but $600 for the Cheap pair? That is pretty steep. I know you have to pay for good sound, but I would still hope to have some money left to put toward a sub!

[Hdale85]

Well you didn't list a budget lol. Those things look awesome though. There are some other small designs here, and there is a designer on the web that made a speaker called the Microbes I believe it was? Something like that used an RS mid. Just depends on how much you want to spend though.

[RubberDucky]

Well you didn't list a budget lol. Those things look awesome though. There are some other small designs here, and there is a designer on the web that made a speaker called the Microbes I believe it was? Something like that used an RS mid. Just depends on how much you want to spend though.

Well I didn't want to give a set price because I don't really have one, and I didn't want to limit the ideas. I just know that I can't afford that setup. However it looks so awesome that it really is tempting! I have seen a few things on here in the past that use some cheaper drivers from Parts Express. My biggest goal is to get something that is an upgrade from my old Klipsh set up, even if it is only a minor upgrade.

[Tomato]

Maybe some Overnight Sensations with a sub. Small, easy, cheap and sound good

[Jstslamd]

How about max size requirements ?

[Jstslamd]

http://rjbaudio.com/Microbe%20SE/microbe%20SE.html

Here is a link to the microbes that were mentioned

[Jstslamd]

https://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php?24504-First-diy-project-Bose-buster

This build has always caught my eye for a small footprint.

[RubberDucky]

How about max size requirements ?

Well the front speakers I could probably even force enough room for some small floor-standing speakers. I have a shelf to fit a really small center speaker above my monitor, but it would be really clos and the shelf is probably about 6 to 8" deep and 4 feet wide. Ideally I would like some small desktop speakers or bookshelf size if the sound improvement makes it worth the space.

I've been doing some research and the AudioEngine A5+ has so many good reviews at a resonable price that I am pretty tempted with going the simple route... The sub for them is another $350 though.

https://www.htguide.com/forum/showth...ct-Bose-buster

This build has always caught my eye for a small footprint.

I like these! Small size... Looks sweet. If only I could hear all these before choosing.

[RubberDucky]

Maybe some Overnight Sensations with a sub. Small, easy, cheap and sound good

I just looked these up.. There are apparently different versions of them, but Parts Express makes a kit and that Would be the easiest way to go for my first project. Any ideas on a sub that would work with them?

[JonW]

Up till now I have been using a 2.1 Klipsh Promedia system...

You know, those Klipsch Promedias are really excellent for what they are. I’ve got a 4.1 system that, after 10+ years of heavy use, is flaking out. It’s kind of down to a 1.0 system now. Hence my push to get a small speaker project going again. But for the $250 I paid for the Klipsch set, I have always been amazed. It’s got to be one of the best bang-for-the-buck things in all of audio.

https://www.htguide.com/forum/showth...ct-Bose-buster

This build has always caught my eye for a small footprint.

Me too. I’ve always thought that they were really cool looking.



If you’re not set on DIY, getting another Klipsch is something to consider. You’ll probably get more pleasant bass that way than you would with the Audioengines. But if you want to go DIY, it’s a whole world of fun.

[RubberDucky]

You know, those Klipsch Promedias are really excellent for what they are. I’ve got a 4.1 system that, after 10+ years of heavy use, is flaking out. It’s kind of down to a 1.0 system now. Hence my push to get a small speaker project going again. But for the $250 I paid for the Klipsch set, I have always been amazed. It’s got to be one of the best bang-for-the-buck things in all of audio.

If they still made the 4.1 setup I would probably go for it! I just can't buy another of this same thing, not after it crapped out on me like this.

[---k---]

Check out some of Paul's designs:

https://sites.google.com/site/undefinition/diy

The Swoope or Speedster might be to your liking. I've heard them and they are nice. Paul has a good ear for designing speakers that like to rock. I really like the Ochocinco MTM in my Sig. Fantastic, inexpensive speaker. The smaller TM might work for you, but make sure you got a someone powerful receiver, because they are inefficient. I haven't heard the others.

[Jstslamd]

http://www.diysoundgroup.com/speaker-kits/kits/osmtm-flat-pack.html

If you like the idea of the mtm overnight sensations but need them in a flat pack. There you go.

[Hdale85]

If you are going to look at commercial speakers and can fit small floor standers look at the Pioneer Andrew Jones towers. They are pretty slim and sound very very good well beyond their price. I actually have a full set of them.

[RubberDucky]

Wow all of these ideas are awesome... I am loving the overnight sensation idea still, seems like I could put together a nice little budget system with them. Did some poking around on Parts Express and I saw that I could get a nice little DAC/amp for a reasonable price, then found one with a remote and realized it was $50 cheaper on amazon. My worry is the low power output. Let me know your thoughts.

Amps- This one OR This one

Speakers- Overnights OR Overnight MTMs (I suppose this would require a more powerful amp)

Sub- Dayton 8" (Unless you all have a better suggestion/easy one to build etc)

How much better would the MTMs sound than the standard Overnights? Is it worth the price bump/having to buy a more powerful amp?

[Jstslamd]

The mtm should be a couple db louder and in theory should have less distortion. It shouldn't be much more power hungry. If it were me I would go with mtm fronts the OS center channel and do tm rears. Maybe a little beefier sub. But that's just me

[RubberDucky]

The mtm should be a couple db louder and in theory should have less distortion. It shouldn't be much more power hungry. If it were me I would go with mtm fronts the OS center channel and do tm rears. Maybe a little beefier sub. But that's just me

What would I be looking at to power this? I liked the little Topping amps because they seem to be high quality sound in a small package WITH a DAC, thats awesome! I like the idea of building a 5.1 with these, I'd probably just wait on the rears.

My big reason for liking the Overnights is that premade package, and all the documentation. I definitely can't figure out a wiring diagram yet. I like pictures!

[---k---]

PE lists the Sensitivity for the Overnight TM at 83dba. The MTM will actually require less amp, because adding the second driver should bring the sensitivity up to 86db. If this is correct, you may not be impressed with a little 15w or 30w amp - especially on the TM. At least that has been my impression with my Ochocinco TM and MTM, which I believe are very similarly rated. They work fine with a 110W Denon receiver (the MTM are great!), but the smaller TM needs to be turned to 11 in order to generate show-off levels in a medium sized, open floor plan room. YMMV! In a small dorm, things change quickly and you don't need the power.

Paul would be the best one to answer these questions. Might try PMing him.

[RubberDucky]

PE lists the Sensitivity for the Overnight TM at 83dba. The MTM will actually require less amp, because adding the second driver should bring the sensitivity up to 86db. If this is correct, you may not be impressed with a little 15w or 30w amp - especially on the TM. At least that has been my impression with my Ochocinco TM and MTM, which I believe are very similarly rated. They work fine with a 110W Denon receiver (the MTM are great!), but the smaller TM needs to be turned to 11 in order to generate show-off levels in a medium sized, open floor plan room. YMMV! In a small dorm, things change quickly and you don't need the power.

Paul would be the best one to answer these questions. Might try PMing him.

Say for now I want to build a 2.1 system with two Overnight MTMs and a sub... Do you know of a sub that would pair nicely and would be a beginner friendly build?

What is Paul's username?

[Hdale85]

How about the 10" Dayton Ultimax, it can be used in a relatively small sealed box as well.

[JonW]

Yeah, those Overnight Sensations look like a cool design. I'd love to hear them. Small and cute.

Not having heard them, I'd guess that the MTM might be a little better than the MT. However, if budget is a real concern, the percent price bump from MT to MTM might not be worth it. Only you can decide on that one.

Regarding a sub, there I'd say go DIY. Subs are easier to build than MT/MTM speakers. And your bang-for-the-buck is higher on a DIY sub versus commercial options.

[RubberDucky]

Yeah, those Overnight Sensations look like a cool design. I'd love to hear them. Small and cute.

Not having heard them, I'd guess that the MTM might be a little better than the MT. However, if budget is a real concern, the percent price bump from MT to MTM might not be worth it. Only you can decide on that one.

Regarding a sub, there I'd say go DIY. Subs are easier to build than MT/MTM speakers. And your bang-for-the-buck is higher on a DIY sub versus commercial options.

Hmmmm, if the sound quality boost isn't much from the MT to the MTM you are probably right about saving money. The MTMs just look so cool! Haha! I am a sucker for aesthetics. Dang human nature.

I found a post on Paul's site and it has this setup, I think this will be my end-goal but I can start with the 2.1 and see if it is enough for my current needs and how good I am at figuring out a crossover. This system uses a Cerberus Sub Build. It is only a 6.5in woofer though..


I wish I had the woodskills to make these beauties!

How about the 10" Dayton Ultimax, it can be used in a relatively small sealed box as well.

You don't happen to have a link to a build using this do you? It looks like it will be quite expensive honestly.. Though I was thinking an 8 or 10" will be plenty for my room.

[Jstslamd]

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=295-510

Here is a link to the 10" ultimax. I'm actually gonna be ordering one of these this evening.

http://www.diysoundgroup.com/subwoofer-kits-1/subwoofer-kits/rs-10-sub-kit.html

Here is a link to a subwoofer kit from the same place I gave you a link to the os mtm kits.
If your into the whole flat pack idea this will go along with your situation. As far as if you pick the mt or mtm. Personally I would go mtm for my front sound stage. Do a 2.1 for now them go back and fill the rest in later.

[JonW]

Hmmmm, if the sound quality boost isn't much from the MT to the MTM you are probably right about saving money. The MTMs just look so cool! Haha! I am a sucker for aesthetics. Dang human nature.

I found a post on Paul's site and it has this setup, I think this will be my end-goal but I can start with the 2.1 and see if it is enough for my current needs and how good I am at figuring out a crossover.

Yeah, the MTM’s do look cool. My guess is that they will sound a little better than the MT’s. But the expense goes up. And you might argue that the MTM expense could be used to make a higher quality MT. It never stops. So maybe pick a budget then go from there.

One way to think about it is that an MT should be fine for the rear speakers. So maybe start with MT’s. If you want something better later, build the MTM’s (or a higher quality MT, etc.) and put the older MT’s in the rear.

I wish I had the woodskills to make these beauties!

Facets can be easier to do than they look. For my floor standing speakers, cutting the facets was fairly involved (for me, at least). But for my small speakers like those you’re seeing, it’s relatively easy. Keep an eye on the Schlafmutze thread. Eventually I will post a step by step build process. I took photos along the way. If you have a sliding mitre table on a table saw, it’s pretty easy. Here is a preview:

[RubberDucky]

Yeah, the MTM’s do look cool. My guess is that they will sound a little better than the MT’s. But the expense goes up. And you might argue that the MTM expense could be used to make a higher quality MT. It never stops. So maybe pick a budget then go from there.

Well I have been thinking about it quite a bit and I feel like a 2.1 system will be sufficient for me. I will probably move into an apartment in the next couple of years (When the Air Force lets me) and then I can go for the all out 5.1 system and spend a lot of money on it (A lot for me isn't much). So after seeing all these awesome suggestions, I think I can narrow it down some more.

- Flat pack is preferred. I don't know if many sites other than Parts Express offer them, but it just seems incredibly convenient and most have the best documentation with pictures of The Crossover (My biggest weakness and fear 8O ).

- If it's not a flat pack but people say it is the best deal and sounds amazing, I will try my hands in the on base woodshop. I don't have a lot of woodworking experience but the guys there can help.

- I would like to be able to run the speakers using a small class T amp like the Topping TP30/32 or if I must have more power maybe a Dayton Audio DTA-100a . I prefer the Topping for the built in DAC to connect it directly to my computer and not have to purchase a soundcard or additional DAC. I know 15 watts isn't much though!

- Around $350 for the Fronts and Sub combined.

- Keep in mind I don't want floorstanding speakers but I have a lot of desk space for some pretty large speakers especially if they sound better. I can make room for sound quality

[BobEllis]

If your base wood shop is anything like mine was, you'll have lots of help. Suggestion: Buy several pieces of MDF to practice cutting the driver holes.

A bit over budget, but this kit doesn't involve any woodworking. http://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com...with-cabinets/ In a smallish room you may have enough bass without a sub if you aren't looking to annoy your neighbors. As a bonus, the cabinets are finished, unlike the PE knock down ones.

You may be surprised how much power 25W is. Going to 50W doesn't buy you much volume - 3 dB is just beyond noticeable, but nowhere near twice as loud.

[blue934]

Those are my OS's. i've also built Paul's Swope MTM and MT designs. Of the three, I would recommend the Swope MT's.I feel they are are a hair more engaging than their MTM brother and a definite step up from the OS design (probably due to the tweeter used. Jon was correct about the facets, not that hard if you've a decent table saw and do-able even with a handsaw and some creativity.

https://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php?33961-Swope-HT-5-1-(HiVi-M5A-M6A-Dayton-ND28)

David

[blue934]

Let me be clear and say that all my comparisons where with a sub. if no sub is used, the MTM's dig deeper.
David

[RubberDucky]

Those are my OS's. i've also built Paul's Swope MTM and MT designs. Of the three, I would recommend the Swope MT's.I feel they are are a hair more engaging than their MTM brother and a definite step up from the OS design (probably due to the tweeter used. Jon was correct about the facets, not that hard if you've a decent table saw and do-able even with a handsaw and some creativity.

David

I appreciate your input! What sub were you using? To make those facets do you have to use solid wood.. Are yours solid wood? How much does the wood to make them usually cost?

Sorry I have so many questions, I really LOVE the look of those and I know if I walk into my woodshop with a picture, materials, and some decent knowledge the guys there will probably have the skills.

[JonW]

I imagine that you’ll get nothing but a warm welcome and lots of help from the base shop guys. And I bet that they have lots of fun tools/toys there to learn on.

You can use whatever material that you want. We all have our preferences. I think that MDF is most common because it’s cheap and pretty dead acoustically, which is good for a speaker. Personally, I hate the stuff. Too much dust, too much formaldehyde, and it dents easily. I prefer baltic birch plywood and that’s what I made mine from. Then covered them with a veneer. More expensive than MDF, though. Veneering those small facets was not super easy. (Hint: use super glue.) Real wood can work. It will look the nicest. But also be expensive. And it may resonate more than MDF or plywoods, so that is not good. Another issue with real wood is that it expands/contracts with changes in humidity and temperature more than MDF or plywood. Then it can crack. But it will be less of an issue with small speakers like these. If you’re just going to paint them and don’t mind the dust, maybe use MDF. If you want a nice wood finish, go MDF or plywood with veneer. Or something else. Really, you can do anything that you want. Have fun.

[blue934]

+1 to everything Jon said. mine were MDF covered with cherry countertop laminate. It is much easier to do this with veneer as Jon mentioned, I just happened to have a chunk of laminate I wanted to use up. Hardwood facets look gorgeous if done right but it will be more expensive. 1/2 sheet of MDF or a 5'x5' Baltic Birch panel will easily build these or the swope tm's.
I first paired these with a 'Triska' sub (PE showcase) but wouldn't recommend it. These liitle guys require more refined bass to sound balanced. maybe someone else can chime in with their favorite small (8"?) sub. maybe an RSS210 sealed if in a small room. All my subs are 12" -TC Sounds, Aura, and CSS.
One thing to remember, when doing facets the front baffle needs to be much thicker to accomodate the facets and not be paper thin at the joints. i used 1-1/4" stock.
David

[Jstslamd]

Ill keep you update on the subwoofer situation. I stated earlier that I was going to be purchasing a 10" ultimax from PE. I pulled the trigger about 5 minutes ago so ill have some answers soon.

[RubberDucky]

Well it looks like MDF is the way to go. Now if I could find a nice budget sub build then I can see how much I will have for the speakers. I can't seem to find one of those nice one-post-to-rule-them-all for subs though. I really like the look of the 8" Tang Bands on PE.

Tang Band W8-740P 8" Subwoofer

Tang Band W8-1363SB 8" Subwoofer

When looking at plate amps, I noticed that only some have the speaker wire inputs which is what I would need with a small T Amp like I want to use. I figure the Dayton amps will work nicely though?

[Jstslamd]

What do you think about spending a tad more and using an 8" Dayton rs HF sub ? Probably a better sub candidate

[RubberDucky]

What do you think about spending a tad more and using an 8" Dayton rs HF sub ? Probably a better sub candidate

The one I see is 280 Watts RMS. I'd need to get a higher wattage amp, like the 300 Watt Bash wouldn't I? That adds to the price too.

[BobEllis]

If you are looking at the driver power rating, nothing says you have to power with the driver's maximum rated power. That published specification is often the thermal limit. Depending on the cabinet you can easily find that the driver hits its mechanical limits at a significantly lower power. The important thing is to have enough power to avoid clipping. That said, it is not particularly efficient at 83.5 dB/W, meaning you'll probably want a big amp anyway. I have a sub with a base sensitivity of 94 dB/W and found that 250 W isn't enough to prevent amp clipping with 6 dB of LF boost applied. The difference in sensitivity implies that the Dayton without boost would probably want 500Wfor headroom and probably only reach into the mid 30s.

A more inexpensive subwoofer isn't likely to reach deep or get loud enough, hence my earlier suggestion of building a decent set of mains and saving up for a decent sub. The Dayton looks OK for small dorm style room, but once you're in a larger space and want to go deeper bigger is better. I's a too much bass capability is not enough guy, so take this with a grain or two of salt. My feeling is one 15" is a minimum and it should reach at least into the low 20s.

[RubberDucky]

If you are looking at the driver power rating, nothing says you have to power with the driver's maximum rated power. That published specification is often the thermal limit. Depending on the cabinet you can easily find that the driver hits its mechanical limits at a significantly lower power. The important thing is to have enough power to avoid clipping. That said, it is not particularly efficient at 83.5 dB/W, meaning you'll probably want a big amp anyway. I have a sub with a base sensitivity of 94 dB/W and found that 250 W isn't enough to prevent amp clipping with 6 dB of LF boost applied. The difference in sensitivity implies that the Dayton without boost would probably want 500Wfor headroom and probably only reach into the mid 30s.

A more inexpensive subwoofer isn't likely to reach deep or get loud enough, hence my earlier suggestion of building a decent set of mains and saving up for a decent sub. The Dayton looks OK for small dorm style room, but once you're in a larger space and want to go deeper bigger is better. I's a too much bass capability is not enough guy, so take this with a grain or two of salt. My feeling is one 15" is a minimum and it should reach at least into the low 20s.

I thought RMS was the continuous power a speaker could handle and from what I learned about car speakers you want at least 80% of the RMS power.


Specifications:
Power Handling (RMS) 280 Watts
Power Handling (max) 560 Watts
Impedance 4 ohms
Frequency Response 27 to 1,000 Hz
Sensitivity 83.5 dB 1W/1m
Voice Coil Diameter 2"
Magnet Weight 50 oz.

[BobEllis]

True, but... What is the limiting factor? Most driver's power rating is based on what heat the voice coil can get rid of without overheating. If you want clean sound or prefer to have your drivers remain attached to the frame you also need to pay attention to how far the driver moves with a given power across the frequency spectrum, AKA the excursion limited power. Less of an issue if you use the sealed box the driver was intended for, but if you try to get a bit more extension with a ported enclosure you will find that it reaches maximum excursion with very little power. Check the reviews for the driver - there is one with a tag line about needing a sealed enclosure because he ran out of excursion at around 35W.

Depending on which circle you swim in in car audio there tends to be a lot of misinformation or things that apply to cars with the only goal of getting LOUD. How much power you need depends a lot on the sensitivity of the speaker system and the dynamic range of the music. To my way of thinking, I want to avoid amp clipping at all costs. (It tends to get nasty sounding) That leads me to run a subwoofer with a thermal rating of 400W with a 1KW amp, and feed my 70W main woofers from an amp capable of 350 watt peaks. No, I don't listen that loud, but I don't get clipping.

For example, my woofers are ~85 dB/W sensitive, with 5 dB of baffle step correction. That means the system is roughly 80 dB/W. If I listen at a slightly loud 80 dB average I need to feed my speakers 1 watt RMS. ( 2 speakers driven at 1W = +6 db - 6 dB for 2 meter listening distance= 80 dB/W) If the music is well recorded and has significant dynamic range, you can see peaks 30 dB above average. (Dire Straits' Brothers in Arms is one such CD) That means 1W x inv(log(30)) or 1,000W peak power required to make the 110dB the recording is commanding. The tweeters are the limiting factor, keeping me at 105 dB peak, so I end up listening at 75 dB average and not driving my amps into clipping.

There are plenty of folks that go with flea powered amps, Nelson Pass is a prime example with his First Watt amps. He also tends towards very efficient speakers.

[blue934]

Here's an option for you. It's a midwoofer but with 12.5mm xmax each way. Would make a great sounding audio sub. It might not get uber low in regards to HT though.

http://www.diycable.com/main/product_info.php?cPath=24&products_id=538

Here's a design for it but there might be more out there on the web and/or it would be easy enough to model a small sealed or ported box. I see they recommend 14-20L ported.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1238398/reed-exodus-anarchy-25hz-tapped-horn/480

[BobEllis]

Blue, at 46 Hz, the Fs on that driver is way too high for a subwoofer unless you want to play some serious EQ tricks. Kevin seems to be counting on some serious room gain or corner placement to reach even into the 30s. I suspect it's a great midwoofer, but there's more then xmax to a good subwoofer driver. I'd like a Shiva-X in a dorm room, but it uses up the OPs budget by itself.

[blue934]

Bob, according to the builder of the design I linked, it digs nicely into the 20's with a very small footprint. Perfect for a small room. It is a horn loaded design however so a bit more complicated than a typical box but the OP mentioned a woodshop at his disposal so it would'nt be out of reach to build this. Page one gives the build details.

[BobEllis]

The link dropped me in the middle of the discussion, I didn't go to the original design. Interesting, but I'm in the "no replacement for displacement" subwoofer camp. Although I did get some nice deep in bedroom response from a pair of 7" transmission line MTMs with similar Fs and Qtc...

Thinking out loud, a transmission line might be another solution if the OP can handle a floor stander. An MT with Exodus woofers in TLs. No sub required for a while. I made my TL before there were decent TL tools available, I just scaled up Lyn Olson's Ariel to fit a 7" driver. A happy accident. I later rebuilt it as a simpler single taper folded TL (to have presentable cabinets) and was equally happy. We'll have to see if anyone has done a decent Anarchy based MT design. I'm leery of the ones on another HT forum that state "any other 8 ohm tweeter will work..."

[RubberDucky]

Still don't know about a budget sub. Tempting to go with the Dayton prebuilt on PE. Any DIY looks like it will be well out of budget, but it may be worth waiting till I can afford a sweet little DIY. Say I did go with an 8" Dayton rs HF sub like mentioned earlier, what kind of amp would I need to power it and how hard would the enclosure be to make?