Thinking of DIY NAS.... HELP!

[aud19]

So I'm either looking at getting another QNAP (upgrading from my current 2 bay to 4 bay)

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/668273-REG/Qnap_TS_419P_US_TS_419P_Turbo_NAS.html

Or....I'm thinking of putting together a DIY mini ATX PC that certainly would be cheaper but obviously more work and I'd have to do all the setup/software/RAID myself. I'm having trouble finding info on the real differences/details of the mobos/processors etc though. But here's a preliminary glance at what I'm thinking:

http://www.asus.com/Motherboards/Intel_CPU_on_Board/AT3IONTI/

Throw in a power supply, 4GB DD3, and then I need to find a case... I want something small like this:

http://www.thermaltakeusa.com/Product.aspx?C=1419&ID=1896

But I need it to fit four to say.. six drives. Would LOVE some help here!

That should handily out perfrom the QNAP as well (with some work) for ~3/5 the price.

Then there's the software...our IT guy suggested Linux based "Openfiler"

http://www.openfiler.com/

Love to hear everyone's thoughts/input! :T

[Kevin P]

If you want to go with the Mini ITX form factor, this case will fit 7 3.5" HDDs and 1 2.5" HDD, or 5 3.5" + 3 2.5" drives. 5 of the bays are hot-swap as well. Sounds like it would serve your needs nicely.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811112339

The trick might be finding a Mini ITX power supply with enough mojo and SATA connectors for all those drives. On Newegg I didn't see any with more than 3 SATA power connectors. You'll need Y-splitters.

[aud19]

KEVIN TO THE RESCUE!!

I was just about to head to Lian Li I also found these but I like that one the most so far!!

http://www.silverstonetek.com/product.php?pid=303&area=en

http://www.antec.com/Believe_it/product.php?id=MzAmMw==

..and these two.. they're small but too much like a PC IMO...

http://www.antec.com/Believe_it/product.php?id=MjM3NiY3

http://www.antec.com/Believe_it/product.php?id=MyYz

[aud19]

...and good point about the SATA power... But it looks like that case you posted takes a standard ATX PSU :banana:

[aud19]

There's this one too!!

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811352019

[aud19]

Kevin, I almost want to kiss you for finding that case! :lol:

At ~11:30 of this video he shows that the hot swap bays are actually powered by three molex plugs! So no need to worry about ANY SATA power cables until I get more than 5 drives :banana:

[YOUTUBE]ssKAcd1sO6Q&feature=watch_response[/YOUTUBE]

[aud19]

Can't seem to find the non "Deluxe" version of the above mobo so thinking of switching to

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813131731

I'd LIKE to get some of the features of this board (6onboard SATA vs 4 in the Intel, USB 3.0 vs 2.0 in the Intel and more PCI ports) but the reviews of flakiness have me concerned....

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=13-131-697&SortField=0&SummaryType=0&Pagesize=10&PurchaseMark=&SelectedRating=-1&VideoOnlyMark=False&VendorMark=&IsFeedbackTab=true&Page=2#scrollFullInfo

[Chris D]

I'm pretty interested in what you do on this one, Jason. I'm still using my Drobo, and it's pretty good, but I know it could be better. I have some network limitations with using the Drobo. Drobo has released a bunch of new models since I bought mine, and some of the new ones are pretty cool.

Are you now leaning towards building your own? If I do replace my NAS sometime, I'm hoping to go with something rackmounted, to install into my equipment room better. BTW, this one case you mentioned is the one I used to build my latest PC. It's pretty sweet.

[aud19]

I think this is what I've settled on so far...

The Lian Li Case

http://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811112339

The Asus AT5NM10T-I Mobo

http://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813131731

SeaSonic SS-350ET Bronze 350W PSU

http://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817151077

CORSAIR 4GB 204-Pin DDR3 SO-DIMM DDR3 1066

http://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820233080

Mushkin Enhanced Mulholland 4GB USB 2.0 Flash Drive (To run the OS/Openfiler)

http://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820226077

And two Seagate Barracuda Green ST2000DL003 2TB 5900 RPM 64MB Cache SATA 6.0Gb/s 3.5" Internal Hard Drives to add to the two drives I already have.

http://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822148681

That'll give me ~6TB of storage in Raid5 and with a SATA PCI card I could add another three 2TB drives for 12TB total

[Hdale85]

Put some more ram in it and run the newer version of FreeNAS, then you can run ZFS and upgrade drives as you need. With ZFS you can just pull one out and pop in a bigger one kind of like the Drobo. But it uses a lot of ram so I'd say 8gigs would probably be sufficient for an array of that size, heck 4gigs might be enough even but hey ram is cheap.

[aud19]

Mobo has a 4GB max

One of the reasons I was considering one of the AMD CPU boards....

[Chris D]

I've never quite wrapped my brain around NAS. It's pretty much an external hard drive, just connected over ethernet, right? So why does it have to have an OS? And if it has to have one, do you have to do anything to operate the OS, such as connect a mouse, keyboard, and monitor to set things up, do updates, etc? Or does the NAS just work like a magic black box, and just work when you turn it on and connect your PC to it?

I first got my Drobo to be a NAS for the whole house. I wanted any computer in the house to connect to the house network, and then be able to access and use the network drive for storage. The Drobo works pretty good, but periodically it runs into one or more problems:

1. Slow access
2. Shows up as the wrong network drive letter (mapped as Z:, but then I open up "My Computer", and it'll show mapped as like L-Z, with M-Z disconnected and only L active
3. I think at least some times, multiple users can't access the Drobo at the same time

So if you end up building your own, jason, I hope it works better than mine!

[Hdale85]

Really 4gb max?... Wow yeah I think I'd go for one of the lower power (45w) APU systems as well then. Probably shouldn't be a lot more money. They actually are more powerful then an Atom setup and generally don't use that much more power either. Actually I think there are some integrated designs that are lower power then 45w.

You need an OS to manage the drives and manage the RAID software and so on, also to have SAMBA or something to be able to talk to the windows network or whatever network you end up using.

[aud19]

I've never quite wrapped my brain around NAS. It's pretty much an external hard drive, just connected over ethernet, right? So why does it have to have an OS? And if it has to have one, do you have to do anything to operate the OS, such as connect a mouse, keyboard, and monitor to set things up, do updates, etc? Or does the NAS just work like a magic black box, and just work when you turn it on and connect your PC to it?

I first got my Drobo to be a NAS for the whole house. I wanted any computer in the house to connect to the house network, and then be able to access and use the network drive for storage. The Drobo works pretty good, but periodically it runs into one or more problems:

1. Slow access
2. Shows up as the wrong network drive letter (mapped as Z:, but then I open up "My Computer", and it'll show mapped as like L-Z, with M-Z disconnected and only L active
3. I think at least some times, multiple users can't access the Drobo at the same time

So if you end up building your own, jason, I hope it works better than mine!

Well the Qnap I currently have already works better than that :lol: It doesn't drop drive mapping, multiple users can (and occasionally do) access it (although obviously more users will mean slower response) and it's generally quick to respond.

It needs an OS because something has to tell the drives to RAID together, run the NIC and do things like run a torrent downloader or client server functions etc. It's not just a "glorified external drive"

Really 4gb max?... Wow yeah I think I'd go for one of the lower power (45w) APU systems as well then. Probably shouldn't be a lot more money. They actually are more powerful then an Atom setup and generally don't use that much more power either. Actually I think there are some integrated designs that are lower power then 45w.

You need an OS to manage the drives and manage the RAID software and so on, also to have SAMBA or something to be able to talk to the windows network or whatever network you end up using.

Well the AMD board is only 8GB max :lol: The reasons for going with one of the mini ITX "all-in-one" boards is two fold. One is the energy efficiency as you assumed, the other is cost. That case, motherboard RAM, USB thumb drive and PSU are all I need and are under $300 and is expandable up to seven drives.

A 4 drive max capacity QNAP for example has a lesser single core CPU, only 1GB of RAM and is ~$600. A 45w system would also be around $600.

For $600 I'm getting more than enough power for a NAS PLUS the two additional 2TB drives! :lol:

[Hdale85]

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813157228

16gb's close in price, and ASRock stuff has gotten pretty dang good the last couple of years. They actually have a top tear gaming board that is pretty popular now days as well.

[aud19]

Yeah there's this Giagbyte one that'll do 8GB and has USB3.0... I've only ever used Asus boards with good success but if they're not making what I want...

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813128468

or MSI...

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813130568

After I figure out the mobo I need to decide on FreeNAS or Openfiler...

[aud19]

Just realized the downside to all the non-Asus boards.... FANS :evil:

If I could get this board with out the wireless (or at all as it seems to be out of stock everywhere :evil: ) I'd be happy. Has everything else I need/want.

http://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813131698

[aud19]

Just found out that the reason I'm having trouble finding these boards is that they're EOL...so I may see if I can struggle by on my existing 2TB until they come out with a replacement.

Hopefully the next gen will have the 5-6 SATA ports, USB 3.0, allow for 8GB+ of RAM etc. I'll keep this thread posted

[Landspeeder]

Perhaps a bit late, but I'll chime in my 0.02 anyways.

AT WORK:
- we used to use a THECUS 2100... it suffered from multiple users.
-From that we moved to freeNAS, but had maintenance issues.
-Then we switched to Windows Server... that did NOT last long.
-Now we use a self built unRaid rid. It has been through 4 rebuilds, changes of hardware, 2 dead drives, increased capacity, etc and has suffered no data loss. We do fairly large file transfers to and from the machine. You really need a dual core and at least 4GB of ram (or at least we do)... but file access is not terribly fast.

AT HOME:
-I first used the onboard raid controller on my MOBO with 7. This worked for a couple smaller mirrored arrays.
-Then I moved to linux, but it detected a fault and automatically begain rebuilding using the bad disc as the model.
-Thought I would give a netgear Readynas unit a try... lost the first unit... the second unit corrupted my data with it.
-Currently I use an Adaptec Series 6 controller on 6 2tb drives and 2 3tb drives under a windows os with a mobile dual core cpu. Even though this configuration is not headless, it has given me the most dependability of my home rigs and it allows my wife to watch on HD stream, while my daughter watches another HD stream, and I encode 1 of my thousands of DVDs for cold storage while streaming music in another room. I have it setup to email, and in my gmail to alarm my phone, when anything of note happens (temp to high, power looking bad, hard drive or array not appear optimal, etc. This is in a SILENT Fractal Design Define R3 case on a pure-sine (large) UPS.

In both locations I've done the small all in one units (which have given us problems), using the onboard raid (which have given us problems), and built dedicated 'nas' rig (which have worked out the best).

In both locations LARGE file transfers are common, and the rigs are up 24x7.

Lime-Techs unraid is headless, easy to use, very transferable, but requires a bit of setup to get the automation and checks working correctly. It is also not quick enough for multiple large file streams. It also easily creates an expandable single volume.

The windows based adaptec system is very easy to use, but not headless. It also requires a bit more grunt for things like good firewalls. But Adaptec's 6 and 6E controllers are brilliant... so long as you do not look at their price :/

Cheers

[Landspeeder]

sub'd

[PewterTA]

*cough* Areca *cough*

Spend the money (most on) a good raid controller then you don't have too many issues with data loss and it'll run on anything you throw at it.

[Hdale85]

I have a linux based software raid server, and it runs 24x7 and has been running 24x7 for the past 4 or 5 years now? Never a single issue that wasn't caused by me. I did some stupid things once and lost everything but that was my fault, since then though never a single issue even through upgrades.

[aud19]

I have a linux based software raid server, and it runs 24x7 and has been running 24x7 for the past 4 or 5 years now? Never a single issue that wasn't caused by me. I did some stupid things once and lost everything but that was my fault, since then though never a single issue even through upgrades.

Yeah pretty much all the pre-built NAS boxes are software RAID, my buddy/IT guy just built a 20TB software RAID server for his home and has no qualms about it...

While I appreciate the "pro" input... really I'm not doing anything terribly complicated. It just needs to host pics, vids and music and serve at most 3 computers (HTPC, main PC and a laptop) and normally only one PC at a time. I'm not hosting a web page, doing daily backups of encrypted accounting info or being mail server for 20+ people or anything.

[PewterTA]

Yeah I wasn't saying softwar raid is bad or anything... if anything, it's just slow...but for most people it's not a big issue. I run a bunch of things so it was worth the price of the controller to have the hardware speed for me (plus the flexibility to add drives as needed into the array without having to move the data off it, rebuild, etc.

I would say if you are sort of savvy, definitely FreeNAS with ZFS file system is probably the way to go...

That is of course if you're going to build yourself a NAS vs a prebuilt box with just a couple drives.

It's a shame though that drives are so expensive right now. I put all 20 2TB drives in my server for around $50 a drive...so it didn't hurt as much as close to $160 for a 2TB drive now.

[Landspeeder]

agreed with PewterTA.
UnRaid is very similar to FreeNas: it too is a linux based software raid. When I used it, it was rather young: the UnRaid had matured when I tried it.
I will say that personally, I've not had the best of luck with pre-built NAS raid boxes.

[Hdale85]

Hey 160 is on the down swing! It was a bit over 200 not to long ago.

FreeNAS is based on FreeBSD or something I believe which is why it supports ZFS and the main reason I'd pick FreeNAS over any of the other ones. Like I said FreeNAS makes it work pretty much exactly like a drobo, you can pull a drive and swap it for a bigger one to expand your array. Basically just more upgradability in the future.

They are working on a Linux port of ZFS but it's pretty crappy from what I hear so far.

[PewterTA]

Good way to look at things positively Dougie...

I guess I'm a pessamist.... I want $50 2TB drives! ha ha.

[Hdale85]

I'd love $50 2TB drives. If we were on the same path we were on a few months ago we'd probably be below 100 at least but now we won't see that for a long time.

[PewterTA]

Don't know if you're still looking but Newegg.com has all their Netgear NASes with a 20% discount using promo code: BTENHHN28

http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&N=100008175%2050001233&IsNodeId=1&name=Netgear%20Inc.&nm_mc=EMCPP-IT022012A&cm_mmc=EMCPP-IT022012-_-PPS1-_-banner-HD-_-PromoWord

[aud19]

Well it looks like these are back in stock (with a $20 rebate)...

http://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813131732

No USB 3.0 and it looks like there's some issue with Linux and getting the NIC to run at Gigabit though... and really Ive waited this long...I'm thinking I just wait for the replacement. Have an email in to Asus to see if they have any idea when the next generation are coming...

Otherwise...dual CPU, 6 SATA, 8GB Ram...

[PewterTA]

B&H Photo has a really nice Iomega 8TB NAS on sale for $850... it does...well basically everything you could want (iSCSI and Cloud included)... Might want to check this out as it's a pretty nice unit. A friend of mine got one a week ago and loves it, easy to set up and works right out of the box fantastically.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/766452-REG/Iomega_35439_8TB_StorCenter_ix4_200d_Network.html

[aud19]

Thanks Pewter but too little storage and too much $$$...I'm just going to wait for my mobo...*sigh*

Pens really blew that lead last night eh? Don't feel bad, my Canucks were dirty bed $h1++3r$ too.

[Chris D]

That's okay... looks like the Avs missed the playoffs entirely. :roll:

[aud19]

That's okay... looks like the Avs missed the playoffs entirely. :roll:

They're getting there, give them a year or two, they've got some great young guys :T

[PewterTA]

Yeah it was a heart breaker that's for sure... but we'll see what tonight brings! I think it'll be all good, they know what happened in the first game and I don't think they're going to let up anymore. I'm still thinking Pens in 5......maybe.

[aud19]

OK...I've grown impatient waiting for an on-board solution to appear so I'm thinking of this setup now. It's a bit less energy efficient but should be a decent amount more powerful for running the software RAID and can accept up to 16GB of RAM which is nice.

ASUS P8H61-I (REV 3.0) LGA 1155 Intel H61 HDMI USB 3.0 Mini ITX Intel Motherboard

http://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813131727

It's "only" got 4 SATA ports but that's all I need right now and if I need more down the line, I'll just have to buy a 4 port card I guess.

Intel Core i3-2100 Sandy Bridge 3.1GHz LGA 1155 65W Dual-Core Desktop Processor Intel HD Graphics 2000

http://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819115078

Otherwise the same case, PS and Hard Drives... Up the Ram to 8GB:

CORSAIR XMS3 8GB (4 x 2GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1333 (PC3 10666) Desktop Memory Model

http://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820145262&Tpk=CMX8GX3M4A1333C9

I think the dual 8GB chips might be adding too much $$ plus it's iffy if the mobo actually supports them...

Any thoughts?

[impala454]

What are you doing hard drive wise? If you put four HDs in there with all this stuff in that tight case, you may be able to fry some bacon on top as well as serve files

[Hdale85]

I think an i3 or even an Atom setup or the low power AMD stuff would all work well if you're just doing a NAS. Although depends on what OS and what kind of raid you're planning.

If you are planning on using FreeNAS and ZFS (gives you abilities similar to the Drobo) then you will need a decent amount of ram. Although for 4 hard drives I'd guess 8gb's would be plenty. ZFS will allow you to pull and swap hard drives with bigger ones at any point one drive at a time like the Drobo can do. A NAS certainly doesn't NEED tons of CPU power though. As long as you use a nice low power CPU and what not I don't think the heat will be that bad, especially if the case has a nice airflow through the hard drives.

[aud19]

I'm not worried, the case has excellent ventilation. I might even under-clock the CPU...

Doing four 2TB drives for now in RAID5 for 6TB of storage...be a nice jump from the 2TB I have now which is jammed full and causing playback issues

Going to be a long process though as I'll have to back everything up on to my two 1TB drives I have from before, then format everything, get the new NAS up and running with the four drives and copy everything back... :Z

[aud19]

Yeah still deciding on FreeNAS vs Openfiler...they both have their +/-'s...

It also just occurred to me my NAS will be more powerful than my desktop is :roll: Too bad I can't use it for both! :lol:

[Hdale85]

Well if you want to keep it expandable then I'd go for the ZFS approach simply because you can swap in bigger drives later without losing any data. Freenas is the only one that has ZFS I think. Unless you install Solaris

[aud19]

Ok...so finally making progress (though much different than originally planned) on the DIY NAS.

I replaced the HTPC with a WDTV Live, The HTPC became our new desk top and I'm going to re-purpose our old desktop as the new NAS. I'll have to double check the exact specs but if I recall it's an older Athlon, I think 4GB of ram. I just purchased one WD 2TB "Red" drive for a total of three.

Was looking in to ZFS but I'm not even sure you can do it with three drives...? Also it appears as though if I wanted to expand it from there I couldn't simply add another (4th) 2TB drive. I'd have to add a second, three drive array Or I suppose I could back everything up and rebuild a new array with four drives later

Any input guys?

[Hdale85]

With ZFS you could add just one drive, but it's best to add them in groups. With FreeNAS you don't have to use ZFS you can use regular MDADM or whatever they use and run a raid 5. You can build a ZFS system with a minimum of 3 drives, and you could do a Raid5 setup with a minimum of 3 drives. Raid 5 will just allow you to add one drive at a time no problem. If you start with 3 drives on ZFS the biggest drive pool you can add after that would be 3 drives. Each pool has it's own redundant drive. So if you had a pool with 3 2TB drives, you would have 4TB's of usable space (maybe a bit more because ZFS works a little differently) So if you then added 3 more 2TB drives, you'd only add on another 4TB's because that pool would also have it's own redundant drive. The nice thing here is that your data is very secure and you could have 1 drive fail per pool and have no issues recovering.

[aud19]

Yeah it just sucks I wouldn't be able to have the ~4TB three drive array currently and then add another single drive say in a year and have a 6TB, four drive array...

[Hdale85]

You could but that one drive wouldn't have any redundancy.