Bi-Amp My Mains Poll

[Bing Fung]

I have 2 extra channels on my 1095 and was thinking of Bi-Amping my B&W 603 S2 Mains. If I were to do this, how should I dedicate the amplifiers?

1080 to the Mid/Highs
1095 to the Bass

Or Vice Verse?

It will be a pseudo Bi-Amp :B


I thought I may as well seeing as I had the extra channels sitting around doing nothing. I don’t have room for a 7.1 at this time.

Do you think doing this would upset the nice balance I seem to currently have?

[aud19]

There. Done. Looks like 100% of the respondents picked #2 :B (Yes I know I'm 100% of the responedents so far :rofl: )

Jason

[Bing Fung]

:B Jay, you're outta control :T

I voted for "Just Do It" Only because I was in my mind already :B

[Andrew Pratt]

It wouldn't take more then 5 minutes to swap them around but I'd start with the 1080 on the tweeters first

[GSamF]

I say do it!

You bought a 5 channel amp, so use 'em.

More importantly, I would like to hear a side by side comparison post game report.

I've heard/read that you are "unlikely to hear a noticable difference". I have not come across too many people saying it would "hurt the performance". I would love an unbiased opinion from ya Bing!

So I say, why not? Plus, now it gives you yet another excuse to add more pictures in your famous other post.

Sam

[Bing Fung]

I forgot to add that I need $45 bucks worth of parts $9 for each Splitter, ~$20 for an el-cheapola set of RCA's + Taxes.... To try this.

[DrJRapp]

I seem to remember Andrew starting something like this setup last week or so. He said initial impressions good, but we never heard an more feedback. So what's the story Andrew?

[Andrew Pratt]

Good question...to be honest I really only got to listen to it at a more reasonable volume last night and even then I wasn't in the sweet spot...PPid got that honour I guess my thoughts so far though haven't changed in that if you have spare channels go for it but don't expect huge changes and that in the long run you'd be better off with a huge amp then two bi amped.

[Bing Fung]

When I bi-amped my previous system (120w+105w), I noticed a difference only at the top end, and it was marginal, however still a difference.

My thinking is I'm already feeding my Speakers 200w, and they are only rated to 150w. I know cleaner power is better, but 400w in a psuedo bi-amp? :scratchhead:

I suppose I'm marginally concerned that the gains may be insignificant at the cost of spacial timing, imaging, soundstage...etc

This may be a simple experiment to do, however I'm getting Cheap and don't want to spend the cash to find out it's only meh..... :duh:

Sam, good point, more pictures :T

Jerry, it was in fact Andrew's post that had me thinking.. 'Sonoffagun, I have 2 spare channels too....' :lol:

[Andrew Pratt]

ah just do it Bing and you'll know for sure one way or the other :twisted:

[ht_addict]

When I read Andrews thread about the bi-amping I got to thinking since I have Yamaha RX-1400 and Rotel RMB-1095, maybe I should Bi-amp my mains with the Rotel, run the center of the remaining channel and use the amps in the receiver for the rears. Any thoughts?

ht_addict

[Andrew Pratt]

Sure it'd be worth trying.

[Aussie Geoff]

Bing,

I don't have room for 7.1 at this time

There is always a way to do 7.1...

Try quality in ceiling speakers - I did, lined up with my rear surrounds and equally spaced and they are awesome - I like it better than 90% of 7.1 systems with the speakers too close on the walls behind...

Geoff

[ht_addict]

Now to throw a monkey wrench into the whole idea. I understand that bi-wire and bi-amping are designed to seperate the tweeter from the bass driver and or prevent cross talk within the amplifiers depending on what process your using. Now if you spend a decent $$$ on speakers and amplification haven't the manufacturers taken these possible problems into consideration with their crossovers, damping factors etc, etc? Though Bi-wiring is only the cost of extra wire and connectors, unless you have the extra channels in your setup, the cost of an extra amp can't justify the results? And when it comes to powering a setup why would anyone want to bi-amp with 150w+ amps? With my setup with everything running(bigscreen, receiver, 1095, dvd, Monster 5000mkII/AVS2000 it draws 3-3.5A(360-400Watts). I'm just not sure its worth it? I've already tried the bi-wire process and now I'm back to a single run of AR Master Series 10AWG(copper/silvercopper) wire. I actually like the sound of the single run over the bi-wire. I'm just so confused.

ht_addict

[Andrew Pratt]

There's no one hard and fast rule for bi-wire/bi-amping...some report it works for them while others like yourself didn't see any benefit at all...its really a try it and see type of tweak.

[Charl]

Now just to further confuse the issue.......

Bing, if your 1095 pushes 5 channels at 200w, will it still only push 200w for 3 channels?

I sent NAD a question about this when I still had the NAD T752 receiver which is rated at 5x80w. Their reply was that if I only used 3 of the channels, the output per channel would increase by approx. 10%, thus giving me approx. 3x90w instead of 5x80w, and there would be a slight improvement in quality and detail.
Does this make any sense or was the techie waffling? 8O

If true, it could mean your 5x200w = 3x220w with slightly improved quality and dynamics?????

[aud19]

I've got to add too, I don't think there's much point in using mediocre interconnects etc to test this. Do it right or don't do it. That's a bit like glueing wide strips of rubber to your existing skinnier tires to see if bigger tires would increase your handling, braking etc. :B

Jason

[Bing Fung]

150 views and only 10 votes? :scratchhead:

Aussi, I have been eyeballing my ceiling for the extra 2 speakers

HT, I'm sure I will notice an improvement in SPL and presence by psuedo bi-amping, however at the cost of maybe all these delicate balances you have stated. 200W is a lot aready for my speakers, but hey, more power, right?

Charl, I have read where the 1095 driving 3 amps may gain some power, however they are driving my surrounds. I'm using the 1080 to drive my mains beacause I have heard they 1080 is alledgely "More Musical" than the 1095.

Jason, It's not totaly cheapola RCA's :B I will be using the AR pros which I think are arguably the best in performance / price class. I don't hear them hindering my performance now. Basically I'm a sceptic when it comes to premium cables, but lets not open that can of worms. :E

[aud19]

Phewwww! I was under the impresssion you were going to use a pair of cheap $5 Ratshack's! :E

Jason

[Bing Fung]

Whoa... It's a tie now for "More Power" and "Settle Down" :B

I find it strange nobody has voted for "No, Your Speakers are too Wimmpy..." yet :T :rofl: Sure, they are no Nautilus, but damn they do still sound nice :T

Thanks for your responses and replys so far gang :T


I know Speakers should be my next major upgrade, however a newer display (PJ?) may have to take priority over new speakers.. Unless anybody knows where I can get a screaming deal on a set of N803....

Still I'd like to have no major costs for another 1/2year or so.... Unless it's a deal too good to be passed up


Jason, isn't $5 for those red/white cheapola RCA's a bit over priced? :W I have a box full of those, some of which I have separated into individual cords that I used as 12V turn-on triggers for my Sound Stream Blocks.

[aarsoe]

Bing

I would be worried about matching levels if you are to combine the 1095 and the 1080.
I am a believer when it comes to bi-amping, but only if the amps are matched/identical.
0.5 volts may result in different levels on the amps, but lets say you trim them using a SPL then what are the levels at 0,6 and 0,7 etc..
So my recommendation would first be to use only the 1095 and four channels to drive the front speakers.
However - I dont think you will notice a big difference as your speakers are not that difficult to drive..

However this does open the possibility to tweak using different speaker cables for high/mid and bass section.
So my recommendation would be to go ahead and try - the cost involved is so small - except the amount of time you will spend doing this.
I am however sure your better half will appriciate the time this will take away from you thinking about the next upgrade to your system :rofl:


PS. If you want a couple of really nice tweaks while playing around, then take the B&W crossover and make it external to the speaker it self - can really make a difference. And also solder/clip a wire from each of the speaker units metal frames together to create a "grounding" (not the signal from the amps, just the cast/frame it self) You can try easily by just attaching the wire to the speaker units mounting screws - if you like it, then do it internally..

[Bing Fung]

Hey Gang :later:

Wow, I had to dig back a few pages to revive this thread....

Anders, what external crossovers should I use for that modification you talk about? Interesting on the ground wire, where have you lernt about that?

Well, I finally found the time to do the Pseudo Bi-Amp of my mains.... It certainly is noticable for a psuedo bi-amp :T In my old set up it was noticable only at the upper volume range, however with the Rotels sending 200WPC to the Mid/Highs and 200WPC to the Bass Drivers, it is noticable over the entire volume range.

Bass just seems so much tighter now with a lot more Punch. On Jesse Cook's Free Fall Album, Track 6, "Incantations" it's as if I have tactile transducers bolted to my couch :E It's awesome. :E

I can also turn up the volume to much louder levels now before the B&W 600's start to lose control. Before Bi-Amping, a Volume level of 80 was about the point when distorsion would creep in, now I can go as high as 88 or 90 depending on the disk... It's loud and it's extreme, and I would not listen at the level for long, but it's still pretty clean and controlled at that point. The highs are significatly more distinct an seem crisper. Cymbals just seem to hang in the air some point above the speakers. I played Roxy Music Avalon in Multi Channel SACD, and it was so cool! It has so much depth and dimension that was not there when driving the B&Ws with only 200WPC. It makes me want to do the full mod of removing the stock cross overs and replace them with electronically adjustable ones. Before I was looking at maybe upgrading my mains, but I may just settle in for a bit as this has really given new life to my speakers. And I may experiment more with actual Bi-Amping with external cross overs.


You know that old aeronautics addage of "Anything will fly if you bolt enough power to it"?

Well it seems almost "Any Speaker can sing if you bolt enough power to it"



Here is the T unit.

While I wouldn't recommend going out and buying amps just for the pseudo Bi-Amp, if you have the spare amps kicking around, then it's certainly worth while.

I currently have the 1080 driving the Mid/Highs, and 2 channels of the 1095 driving the Bass drivers.

[rotel_klipsch]

bi-amp article

Bing,
Try reading through this article, it will help you understand the concept better

http://www.sound.westhost.com/bi-amp.htm

[aarsoe]

Bing

The external cross overs are the same ones as internal not to be confused with electronic crossovers!
What I am saying is that removing them from the speaker makes quite a big difference. all you need is to extend the internal cables and place the crossovers in a box outside the speaker, in order not to create any shorting. Really lets you understand how much the pressure created inside the box effects the electronics..
Guess the reason most companies are not doing it by default is cost considderations.. Oh and B&W are doing this in the 800, 801 & 802..
It is pretty easy to do and if you dont like it or if there is no effect, then it is very simple to put the crossovers back again.

The ground wire is an old trick. People claim that doing this enhances the magnetic field or something like this.
It is so well known by now that a couple of speaker producers are doing this as factory default and actually have a single speaker terminal that can be used for the grounding - so all the speaker frames are connected internally in the speaker and you just run a single mono cable to a grounding post or your amp chassis.
I know that Tannoy do this. Here is a cut and paste from their site.
"All models feature a Tannoy researched and pioneered system of driver chassis earthing. This system reduces the effect of RF interference, which would otherwise blur and mask fine detail."

http://www.tannoy.com/frame.cfm?ID=1&D=1

I know others as well, but cant recall which specific models..

Also, still think you should be using the 1095 for the front speakers - beside level matching it will also mean that you can use a short splitter cable at the amplifier end, instead of longer interconnects like your doing now..

[Glen]

Well with all this talk about bi-amping I decided to give it a try.

I've had some demo's in the past at a local audio shop where they could do some quick A/B comparisons - and I've always been impressed with the difference.

I picked up the same adaptor as Bing did for my 1066. I'm using 4 channels from my 1075 to feed my Paradigm monitor 7's.

So far I've only listened to Fiona Apples "When the pawn". There is much more clearity to it now. Everything from the high's to the low's is more detailed, cleaner and more open sounding. It's not an earth shattering difference, but well worth the effort.

Thanks for putting a fire under me to get this done ( it's been on the list for awhile ).

Now.........on to the next upgrade :B

[Bing Fung]

Good to hear Glen :T I have found my system to be awesome in SPL and Sonics :yesnod: I allways crack a grin now when I turn it up :T

Anders, Thanks for the link. I hooked up the the Bi-Amp system both ways (1080 mid/high/1095 Bass & 1095 mid/high/bass) I didnlt noticae any appreaciable differences. So I now have the 1080 on mid/high and the 1095 doing bass. The cables I'm using in my splitter are 1 meter jobs, which would be used regardless of which way I connected it up. Less I custom make some 6" ones. I'm not sure I understand the purpose of the attached photo? :scratchhead:

Rotel Kilpsch. Thanks, I have read that page many times before. What do you use as a electronic cross over in your system? I was looking at the Marchand XM6 http://www.marchandelec.com/xm6.html but its a bit pricey

[aarsoe]

Bing

The photo was just to show how some manufactors use the grounding of the speaker chassis.
Just to show that this is not just my crazy idea... 8)

In regards to the cable - you could use a "Y" splitter cable inserted into the amp end, that way you would only need one pair of interconnects. However since your using the 1080&1095, then that does not apply..

[Aussie Geoff]

Proceed with Caution

Bing Fung,

It makes me want to do the full mod of removing the stock cross overs and replace them with electronically adjustable ones. Before I was looking at maybe upgrading my mains, but I may just settle in for a bit as this has really given new life to my speakers. And I may experiment more with actual Bi-Amping with external cross overs.

Let me caution you against attempting this lightly. And this caution is mirrored on the B&W Web Site HERE (which recommends bi-wiring and bi-amping but NOT external crossovers). Let me quote:

When considering converting to active, you have to remember that good crossovers, be they active or passive, are custom designed for the drivers used and the particular enclosures in which they are mounted. You can get off the shelf active crossovers, but we do NOT recommend these for high quality audio unless they are purpose designed for the system. If they are not, they will not have the correct in-band equalisation for the drivers' natural responses, compensate for the acoustic centre positions, or match the phase through the crossover region.

The more sophisticated internal crossovers do things like level match different speakers and put phase changes and even internal steps or slopes in speaker power levels (i.e. frequency response) to compensate for driver behaviours (e.g. reducing the power over frequencies where a driver may be more efficient in order to make the response more linear). In the B&W range - as the series go up (to the Nautilus) they increasingly do this - so the more simple 12db or whatever external crossovers often can't achieve as good a driver matching as an internal crossover.... Speakers designed to be actively bi or tri amped usually have active crossovers designed to shape the sound to suit the drivers... Equally leaving the crossover in and using an external crossover as well causes problems sincee you have the two crossover slopes and frequencies overlapping with and usualy fighting with each other (too much filtering and or filtering at different frequencies or slopes)...

Now I don't know how fancy your crossovers are in the 600 series - but B&W's tech support would tell you and IMO you are most likely going to be better off selling the speakers with whole crossovers and upgrading to bi-amped 700 series or better than trying to get an acceptable frequency response out of a 600 series with the crossover removed...

Geoff

[aud19]

Is there any reason you couldn't remove the crossover and use it externally? This should allow you to also put them back if you plan to sell the speakers...

Jason