Rotel separates vs Denon integrated

[feverin]

Hi I have RB-1070 & RC-1082 separates for quite some time now. The upgrade bug has bitten and I'm interested in Denon PMA-A100 integrated amp. The PMA uses mosfets and weighs 60 pounds. Will this be a good upgrade and has anyone switched from Rotel to Denon before? My speakers are Energy RC-70 and Neko Audio D100 digital converter. Thank you in advance.

[madmac]

How old are your Rotels and what power rating?. What is the power rating of the Denon?

[Blindamood]

The Denon actually looks like a pretty sweet piece. And considering it's now available for significantly less than its original list price, definitely worth an in-home tryout.

[feverin]

How old are your Rotels and what power rating?. What is the power rating of the Denon?

My Rotels are just over 4 years old, and my RB-1070 is 130 watts per channel. The Denon PMA-A100 is 80 watts a channel but has 120 amps of peak current from what I remember.

[madmac]

My Rotels are just over 4 years old, and my RB-1070 is 130 watts per channel. The Denon PMA-A100 is 80 watts a channel but has 120 amps of peak current from what I remember.

Keep the Rotels......the Denon will not compete with them on a sonic level. At best, it could be the same but I doubt it. :W

[wkhanna]

Hi I have RB-1070 & RC-1082 separates for quite some time now. The upgrade bug has bitten and I'm interested in Denon PMA-A100 integrated amp. The PMA uses mosfets and weighs 60 pounds. Will this be a good upgrade and has anyone switched from Rotel to Denon before? My speakers are Energy RC-70 and Neko Audio D100 digital converter. Thank you in advance.

Hi, Feverin.

Typically, people go from Denon to Rotel for improved sound quality.
I have no idea how this new Denon performs. For 2ch music, I would be surprised if you experienced better performance from the Denon. But I could be wrong.

We all understand the strife than upgrade-itus can cause. Before you peruse to a total replacement strategy, maybe you might consider a more incremental approach? Your pre-amp is V capable for 2ch music. The weakest link in your system is the place to concentrate your efforts. Your DAC looks to be quite capable. Are you running music files directly from a computer? More info on your specific sources would be helpful.

[feverin]

Typically, people go from Denon to Rotel for improved sound quality. I have no idea how this new Denon performs. For 2ch music, I would be surprised if you experienced better performance from the Denon. But I could be wrong.

Hi. From what I've gathered on Audiogon it seems like an integrated will outperform separates (unless you spend lots and lots of money on separates). This Denon seems like a re-badged model of their earlier integrated amps which got very favorable reviews on AudioReview.

The interesting thing is that the Denon uses mosfets while the Rotel is bipolar. I've seen comments where people often classify mosfets as slower and more "tube like" in a way. I am using an RCD-1070 digital out for CDs. Thank you.

[wkhanna]

I've gathered on Audiogon it seems like an integrated will outperform separates (unless you spend lots and lots of money on separates)

IMHO, I would caution against placing great credibility on such ‘generalized’ statements. My personal experience over many years does not lead to such a simple, black & white conclusion. YMMV

Can you tell us what specific characteristic of your current system you are unhappy with or looking to improve?

[feverin]

Can you tell us what specific characteristic of your current system you are unhappy with or looking to improve?

What are some of your findings over the years in comparing an integrated and separates, wkhanna?

To be honest, I'm not really sure! I think my upgrade bug started last year with my DAC. I bought it on a whim not sure of what I really was trying to improve. But Neko Audio offers a free 30-day in home trial so I thought why not? But it made a huge difference. No longer was everything lumped together in the music, it all had space and definition. I understand the Rotel was a budget model and my DAC was almost $1500. But now I am wondering if I'll get a similar experience if I change my amplification. I checked out the Audiogon forums and that's what led me to think about integrateds instead of separates. And then I found the Denon online, which is now offered at a considerate discount. And based on their past amps, it looks like they have a solid reputation regarding their amplification. Lots of people swear by them from what I read, so at that price now it's pretty tempting. What has been your experience with integrateds and separates, wkhanna?

[bigburner]

Hi I have RB-1070 & RC-1082 separates for quite some time now. The upgrade bug has bitten and I'm interested in Denon PMA-A100 integrated amp. The PMA uses mosfets and weighs 60 pounds. Will this be a good upgrade and has anyone switched from Rotel to Denon before? My speakers are Energy RC-70 and Neko Audio D100 digital converter. Thank you in advance.

Hi feverin,

I currently use an RC-1082 preamp in combination with an Emotiva XPA-2 amp and am really enjoying the results. I have no plans to upgrade the RC-1082 as it's doing a more than adequate job. The XPA-2 is driving a pair of B&W 803D speakers, and it has the power to drive them well.

Until quite recently I used an RB-1080 amp which I rated highly, but the XPA-2 provides more presence at lower volume and better control at higher volume. The two amps sound pretty similar to me. You may find that you experience improvements like that with the 60 lb Denon. Try it out with your speakers if you can.

Alternatively you may find that an XPA-2 brings your RC-70 speakers to life just as well at a lower price. Emotiva offers a 30 day home trial in the United States.

Like you I am really enjoying my external DAC and credit it with contributing greatly to the unique sound that my current system offers.

Here's the link to the XPA-2 stereo amp:

http://emotiva.com/xpa2.shtm

By the way, it weighs 75 lbs.

Nigel.

[feverin]

Thanks everyone. I'm THIS close to taking the plunge and seeing what all the fuss is about on the Denon.

[audioqueso]

Keep the Rotels......the Denon will not compete with them on a sonic level. At best, it could be the same but I doubt it. :W

While I would agree that most of Denon's products are not on the same level, I completely disagree about Denon's integrated amps.
Denon's typical AV products don't stand a chance to their integrated amps.
A few years ago I searching for an intergrated amp in Japan, and had a chance to visit a wonderful place that had so many integrated amps connected to numerous speakers and source all on a switching board. The Denon PMA-SA1, though their flagship at the time, was much much nicer than the Classe combo that they had hooked up.

I remember I posed something back then on how surprised I was to find how good the Denon intergrated amps were compared to... well, all of their other products. I know it's easy to see the name Denon and think it's all in the same class, but with their integrated amps... it's not.

I still recommend Denon's integrated amps.

[brody]

I just went through the integrated vs seperates dilemna myself. I had compared Rotel, NAD, and Marantz integrated (paired with B&W CM9s). For my listening preferences, the Rotel was the clear winner. Problem was it did NOT have enough power to drive 2 pair of speakers (CM9s and CM5s). Stepped up to Rotel 1552 amp / 1550 preamp. HUGE difference immediately noticable. Stick with seperates. Stick with Rotel over Denon.

After much thought and discussion on this forum and with B&W support, I bought 2 1552 amps (1 for each pair of speakers). The system sounds fantastic now.

Yesterday I demo'ed a McIntosh MA 6600 integrated ($6K retail) on the CM9s in order to hear its sound (want it to drive Magnepans on a 2nd system). The sales guy kept touting it as the way to go - an absolute beast of an amplifier. It sounded absolutely awful - a muddled, muffled mess in comparison to the Rotel seperates (retail $1.6K).

[wkhanna]

Denon's typical AV products don't stand a chance to their integrated amps.

From what I have read, this is V true relative to their higher-end integrateds.
I have never heard them, however.

BTW, happy belated B-Day, audioqueso!

[brody]

Not to get off focus here, but I re-demo'ed the McIntosh MA6600 that sounded so bad driving a pair of CM9s. This was at a different dealer and he said the other shop must have had something setup wrong. I was demo'ing my Rotel against a Bryston 4BSST2 (for a set of magnepan 1.7s). The Bryston was better than the Rotel, as it should be costing 5 times the price. I then had him pull out the McIntosh. It sounded fantastic - better then the Bryston (warmer, fuller, not as sharp highs). Just making a correction to that previous post (the other dealer must have had something setup wrong).

[wkhanna]

What are some of your findings over the years in comparing an integrated and separates, wkhanna?

....... What has been your experience with integrateds and separates, wkhanna?

This was a question I did not forget, however found difficult to find the time answer.

I recently came across a statement by Michael Fremer that sums up my experience quite concisely:

“What modestly priced integrateds do more often than not: …..a thin, harmonically anemic top end, drab and/or flaccid bass, and a hollow midrange over a hazy (if not audible as such) presentation……Music typically drips from integrateds, whereas it erupts [from single purpose designed amplifiers].”

As always, JMHO YMMV

[madmac]

This was a question I did not forget, however found difficult to find the time answer.

I recently came across a statement by Michael Fremer that sums up my experience quite concisely:

“What modestly priced integrateds do more often than not: …..a thin, harmonically anemic top end, drab and/or flaccid bass, and a hollow midrange over a hazy (if not audible as such) presentation……Music typically drips from integrateds, whereas it erupts [from single purpose designed amplifiers].”

As always, JMHO YMMV

Ok...that's a bit harsh I would say. Snobbery actually !! :roll:

[wkhanna]

.......Snobbery actually !! :roll:

May I kindly direct you to my signature? :W

Regardless, the statement is intended as an abridged generalization.
As such, it simply reflects my personal experience.

[madmac]

May I kindly direct you to my signature? :W

Regardless, the statement is intended as an abridged generalization.
As such, it simply reflects my personal experience.

I understand that the quote is not yours....I just think (the quote) it's a bit harsh is all. I've been to audio shows and shops here in Montreal and have heard all kinds of really expensive equipment. It all sounds good and fine but we must be careful because the difference in sound when you get to a 'higher' level of audio gear can be subtle and there is the indisputable law of diminishing returns once you get past a certain dollar amount. This guy sounds like a snob is all!!

[PewterTA]

Bascially it's a lot like in Pulp Fiction... where John Travolta's character is buying heroin and the drug dealer points to the first two bags and said they are basically $100 dollars and the last bag is $200. He asks why and the drug dealer says when he shoots it... he'll know where that extra money went to!

It's the same thing with audio... you pay a lot more and you'll get that extra little something that you've never heard before. Most times (not all) integrated components are good enough...but if you want that little extra and to hear things that the integrated will just not show you... you get the separates. All in all... you got to decide what you're willing to spend to get that and at what point you'll be "happy" and upgradeitis doesn't take a hold of you anymore.

I found it (at least with speakers) since getting my 802Diamonds... I don't think I'll ever go with anything else. maybe.

[madmac]

Bascially it's a lot like in Pulp Fiction... where John Travolta's character is buying heroin and the drug dealer points to the first two bags and said they are basically $100 dollars and the last bag is $200. He asks why and the drug dealer says when he shoots it... he'll know where that extra money went to!

It's the same thing with audio... you pay a lot more and you'll get that extra little something that you've never heard before. Most times (not all) integrated components are good enough...but if you want that little extra and to hear things that the integrated will just not show you... you get the separates. All in all... you got to decide what you're willing to spend to get that and at what point you'll be "happy" and upgradeitis doesn't take a hold of you anymore.

I found it (at least with speakers) since getting my 802Diamonds... I don't think I'll ever go with anything else. maybe.

Agreed!!...Now, that sounds better than the dude's statement!! :T

[wkhanna]

Agreed!!...Now, that sounds better than the dude's statement!! :T

As I interpret it, the OP’s question is: will a 2ch system comprised of a stand-alone, separate chassis pre-amp & amplifier typically deliver better performance than an intergrated unit of equal cost which combines pre & and main power duties in the same chassis?

[madmac]

As I interpret it, the OP’s question is: will a 2ch system comprised of a stand-alone, separate chassis pre-amp & amplifier typically deliver better performance than an intergrated unit of equal cost which combines pre & and main power duties in the same chassis?

Probably.....yes........how much better is subject to debate however :W

[PewterTA]

If they are identically priced... then I'd say the separate components are going to be lacking and probably not quite as good... You have to buy cheaper separate components to equal typical price of Integrated components. You really start moving up the price scale when you go to separates vs integrated components.... So you're either going to get a very low end separate setup vs a higher priced integrated.

The only best way to do things is to look at specs and get two systems whos specs are almost identical.

The only real advantage to separates is the fact that the amplifier is often times of a better quality/more power due to lack of "space requirements" that integrated components have.

I don't know anyone going out and buying a ~100lb integrated receiver that would equal out to my RB-1090 & RSP-1098.

Then again... I lack HDMI inputs that I'd like to have where any cheap Integrated receiver will have that... so it's all a give and take.

In the end you'll get better sound with separates...but you're also going to PAY for separate components.