HDMI DTS-HD Master Audio

[cxc21]

Does anyone have a working 7.1 setup which can actually reproduce DTS-HD Master Audio from BR and can comment on components and quality of experience? Is there a Rotel combination which can achieve this? Thanks

[WI Rotel]

It all depends on your player, if your player if it can decode it, any rotel HDMI 7.1 receiver or processor will work. As for amplification the receiver will have its own while for the 1069 you will need a mix of a rotel 5 channel amp and a stereo amp or the 1077 which will do seven channels but only at 100Watts RMS which is pretty weak for anything but small speakers. Thus you have 2 choices the 1069 processor or the 1058 receiver. The 1058 is only 75 watts RMS, thus as the 1077, its only fitting for smaller speakers.
Personally I use a 1095 and a 1080 for amplification and a 1069 processor (still on order)

[Pez]

It all depends on your player, if your player if it can decode it, any rotel HDMI 7.1 receiver or processor will work. As for amplification the receiver will have its own while for the 1069 you will need a mix of a rotel 5 channel amp and a stereo amp or the 1077 which will do seven channels but only at 100Watts RMS which is pretty weak for anything but small speakers. Thus you have 2 choices the 1069 processor or the 1058 receiver. The 1058 is only 75 watts RMS, thus as the 1077, its only fitting for smaller speakers.
Personally I use a 1095 and a 1080 for amplification and a 1069 processor (still on order)

The 1077 can easily handle speakers that are not small. When I bought mine I tested it out on a pair of B&W 804S's and it performed extremely well. I had a 300 wpc solid state amp prior to the 1077 and dont feel I lost anything with the 1077. Quality of the watts is much more important than quantity.

As for DTS master audio, like WI Rotel says, the player needs to decode and then you either need a processor that can also decode it or 7.1 channel analog inputs on the processor or receiver. As for as I know there are more receivers that can do DTS master audio than processors that are currently available. Hopefully we will see more processors than can. I could be wrong but if the player can do DTS master audio and the receiver or processor has at least HDMI 1.1 then it will still work.

[Kevin D]

The 1077 can easily handle speakers that are not small. When I bought mine I tested it out on a pair of B&W 804S's and it performed extremely well. I had a 300 wpc solid state amp prior to the 1077 and dont feel I lost anything with the 1077. Quality of the watts is much more important than quantity..

I agree. I replaced a 1095 with a 1077 and haven't regretted it since. It's really short sighted to say the 1077 is only for small speakers..

Kevin D.

[shadow 8]

Agree with Kevin and Pez. I have owned both the 1095 and 1080, and like the sound of my 1085 much better. I can drive my five speaker Martin Logan setup easily with this amp, and it sounds great. Did try the 1085 at my dealer driving B&W 802s with the large B&W center and pair of 805 surrounds with no sub and it had no problem playing as loud as I cared to listen with a clean and concise presentation. By comparison, my current speakers with a sub are an easy load.

[cxc21]

Thank you for these very helpfull comments. I have been stricktly stereo until now. Eric pointed out in another post "The RSP-1069 will not add any post processing to a multi-channel PCM input. An example where this would affect someone is if they had a 7.1 system and the movie they were watching has a 5.1 soundtrack. The surround back speakers wouldn't play." Is this also true with the 1058? Is it better to just go with a 5.1 system?

[Nolan B]

It all depends on your player, if your player if it can decode it, any rotel HDMI 7.1 receiver or processor will work. As for amplification the receiver will have its own while for the 1069 you will need a mix of a rotel 5 channel amp and a stereo amp or the 1077 which will do seven channels but only at 100Watts RMS which is pretty weak for anything but small speakers. )

I heard the 1077 powering 7 B&W 803Ds and it was making all of them sing beautifully.

[cxc21]

On the amp side the 1077 would probably the right one if it can sustain really 100W on every channel simultaneously. The processor and Blueray player seems to be more of a problem.
In my case all HD video comes from MPEG2 streams from my Mac (free antenna digital TV in HD and SD). THe Mac also holds my own HD video from my HD camcorder. I also play DVD through this. All goes out through DVI to HDMI to a 720p projector. If I need to I can hook up s-video to the grafik card as well. The mac does all the video scaling in what ever I want. So I don't need a scaler. Sound out from the mac is 5.1 through Optical out into my Rotel Stereo setup. I am considering a blueray player which can output DTS HD Master audio to get access to the best sound. And there things get very confusing. Is it best to have HDMI video and sound processed together or should the sound by processed in the player? I somehow suspect that most of the problems come from the HDCP disaster. Looks like a few new player will soon come out which actually can decode DTS HD MA but I am not sure which processor will understand which digital protocol. What processing is applied by the 1069 or 1058 to digital or analogue inputs. If i put 5.1 into optical input of the 1069 how is that processed if it is hooked up to a 7.1 system?

[WI Rotel]

I agree. I replaced a 1095 with a 1077 and haven't regretted it since. It's really short sighted to say the 1077 is only for small speakers..

Kevin D.

Should have said more efficient speakers. I find it a little hard to believe that a 1077 would drive 5 speakers as well as a 1095 unless the speakers were very efficient given that continous, peak and dynamic reserves of the 1095 are better than the 1077 by a factor of 2.5. With my XT's its not even close, the 1077 can not handle them at anything over modest sound levels, at higher sound levels the 1077 simply turns channels off to protect itself and the speakers. The 1095 on the other hand drives them full blast around the clock without even getting warm.

[Nolan B]

Should have said more efficient speakers. I find it a little hard to believe that a 1077 would drive 5 speakers as well as a 1095 unless the speakers were very efficient given that continous, peak and dynamic reserves of the 1095 are better than the 1077 by a factor of 2.5. With my XT's its not even close, the 1077 can not handle them at anything over modest sound levels, at higher sound levels the 1077 simply turns channels off to protect itself and the speakers. The 1095 on the other hand drives them full blast around the clock without even getting warm.

Curious.

Have you heard the 1077 driving Xts?

[htsteve]

Denon BR player

Does anyone have a working 7.1 setup which can actually reproduce DTS-HD Master Audio from BR and can comment on components and quality of experience? Is there a Rotel combination which can achieve this? Thanks

cxc21,

I just got the Denon 3800 BR player. I will be finishing my new HT room in my basement shortly and will set up the Denon down there to output DTS MA via analog to my pre-amp. Then I can give an assessment as to this versus the conventional digital coax with 'regular' DTS.


HTSteve

[scanido]

cxc21,

I just got the Denon 3800 BR player. I will be finishing my new HT room in my basement shortly and will set up the Denon down there to output DTS MA via analog to my pre-amp. Then I can give an assessment as to this versus the conventional digital coax with 'regular' DTS.


HTSteve

Does that player have bass management settings? If so, I'm sold!

[hifiguymi]

Does that player have bass management settings? If so, I'm sold!

I know you asked Steve but yes it does. The surround processor is the same as Denon's upper end receivers. The DVD-3800BDCI is a wonderful BD player. It's easily the best I've seen and heard.

Eric

[htsteve]

Does that player have bass management settings? If so, I'm sold!

scanido,

The 3800 has bass management. You can set speakers to large/small. There are the 5 crossover settings (40, 60, 80, 100, 120 Hz) you can then apply to the small speakers. This is true for both HDMI (LPCM) and Analog out functions. Channel level and delays for each speaker are also available.

I also agree with hifiguymi. It's the best I've seen and heard. The scaling is very good on this unit.

Hope this helps.

[cxc21]

Fantastic htsteve, that's the only one which can decode and output Master audio right now? Which pre amp and amps will you be using?

[Frankster72]

@Vancouver

yes, the 1077 does a good job on the XT series. But it is not enougth to release the full potential of them. I upgraded for the mains to the rb-1092. sound improved so much. speaker sound now much bigger. much more control in base also mids and highs seem to receive a gain of more dynamic....
it feels much more live like...

but I believe the 1077 does on the 804s a better job, because it comsumes less power than the xt4.

[htsteve]

Fantastic htsteve, that's the only one which can decode and output Master audio right now? Which pre amp and amps will you be using?

cxc21,

I believe the Denon 3800 is the only BR player that is currently released that does DTS-MA (There may be others, but I'm not sure). There are some models that have been announced (like the Panasonic BD50), but I don't think they are actually out yet. I suspect more will be available this fall.

As to electronics, I have the McIntosh MX-120 pre-amp and the MC205 power amp driving 802d's and HTM2D up front and N804's in the rear. The Mac pre-amp does not process audio over HDMI. It does have 7.1 analog inputs, so that is why I went with the Denon, it decodes all formats over analog out.

I'm looking forward to really unleashing the Denon soon. I've ordered some BR material. My HT room is almost done. I'll be priming the walls this weekend and painting next week. After carpeting, I'll move my equipment down there. A Stewart Firehawk 100" screen and Runco RS-900 projector will round out the room. I can't wait to fire it all up.


Hope this helps.

[WI Rotel]

Curious.

Have you heard the 1077 driving Xts?

Yes I have. I had my dealer set up a 1077 with a full complement of XT's. 2 XT4's 1 XTC and 4 XT2's. When listening to music in surround+XS (psuedo 7.1) and 7channel stereo at high levels the 1077's circuit protection activated after a few minutes, it simply could not shoulder the load. The same thing happened when I originally bought my XT's (5.1) and a rotel 1067, that is why originally bought the 1095 which drove the 5.1 system splendidly, at any level, all day long. When I bought the 2 additional XT2 for 7.1, I put the XT4's on a 1080 by themselves and put all the surrounds on the 1095. The results are amazing (I also have 2 PV1's). The only thing I have heard that surpasses my present system was a full 8 series surround with 802 mains, not because sound quality was significantly better, but because much higher sound levels were possible. Of course, my whole XT system cost as much as a pair of 802's, the 8 surround system I was listening to was 50K (factor of 5)! BTW they were driving the 8 system with multiple Rotel 500watt class D amps. Class D's are great, they simply cannot violate the laws of physics. The 1077 is great for driving efficient systems something the XT's are not. The XT's can deliver fabulous sound but they require huge amounts of current to do so. :W

[cxc21]

Expensive luxury all around, alone the screen must be over $2000? That will sound as good as it ever will get. What do you build after that?

[kmcheng]

On the amp side the 1077 would probably the right one if it can sustain really 100W on every channel simultaneously. The processor and Blueray player seems to be more of a problem.
In my case all HD video comes from MPEG2 streams from my Mac (free antenna digital TV in HD and SD). THe Mac also holds my own HD video from my HD camcorder. I also play DVD through this. All goes out through DVI to HDMI to a 720p projector. If I need to I can hook up s-video to the grafik card as well. The mac does all the video scaling in what ever I want. So I don't need a scaler. Sound out from the mac is 5.1 through Optical out into my Rotel Stereo setup. I am considering a blueray player which can output DTS HD Master audio to get access to the best sound. And there things get very confusing. Is it best to have HDMI video and sound processed together or should the sound by processed in the player? I somehow suspect that most of the problems come from the HDCP disaster. Looks like a few new player will soon come out which actually can decode DTS HD MA but I am not sure which processor will understand which digital protocol. What processing is applied by the 1069 or 1058 to digital or analogue inputs. If i put 5.1 into optical input of the 1069 how is that processed if it is hooked up to a 7.1 system?

cxc21:
You may already know this: If you get the sound through the optical out you will not get the lossless audio (DTS HD or Dolby TrueHD) no matter what receiver or processors you use. There are only two ways that you can pass the lossless audio signals: HDMI or analog.

For example, the Rotel 1069 would accept lossless audio (in the form of multi-channel PCM) from the source. The 1069 (or any processor with analog-in) can also accept the analog signals decoded by the source. In either case, the source needs to be able to decode the lossless formats into (1) multichannel PCM or (2) analog signal.

In your current setup, your DVI-HDMI connection will not pass audio signal at all and your optical connection will not pass the lossless audio formats.

I have read that Rotel 1069 does sound processing and bass management with multichannel PCM. I am not sure what it does to the analog signals. You will need to check with other helpful 1069 owners (e.g. Kelvin D and Vancouver) to confirm.

As far as the source player goes, there are rumors that the PS3 may soon decode DTS HD. If there is any truth to it, then I would think that it is the best bang for the buck, since you can do wireless networking and get a game console with it too.

[htsteve]

Expensive luxury all around, alone the screen must be over $2000? That will sound as good as it ever will get. What do you build after that?

cxc21,

Yes, these are pretty nice toys. An opportunity presented itself, including high WAF. Your estimate for the screen is pretty accurate. It's a vicious circle. Once you start getting the really good stuff, you want to try to keep the whole system in balance. I'm quite fortunate that it can be done in a relatively short amount of time.

I love your question about what's next. I do tend to think ahead, even in the midst of a current upgrade. However, this time, I haven't really thought ahead. I think the first thing will be some acoustic treatments.

[cxc21]

Thanks KMcheng, I know the 1069 will not decode DTS hd master audio you need to feed it decoded signal. However, the RSP-1069 will not add any post processing to a multi-channel PCM input so if you have a 5.1 video but a 7.1 setup you loose the back. I wish the 1069 would do more flexible processing and decoding. It would be easier to route the audio from an BD drive in a Mac/PC. It is extremely difficult to get high quality audio out of a Mac/PC while the video side is not a problem at all. I can define 5.1 and 7.1 output, but the new formats are missing. Optical doesn't have the bandwith with current protocol and hardware. LPCM apparently has. I also gather that "can decode Master audio" in a manual only means that the player will read it but not necessarily that it also can put this out. I probably wait for the Panasonic BD-50. Otherwise I hope Rotel gets the problems with the 1069 straighten out soon.

[Ferres]

Yes I have. I had my dealer set up a 1077 with a full complement of XT's. 2 XT4's 1 XTC and 4 XT2's. When listening to music in surround+XS (psuedo 7.1) and 7channel stereo at high levels the 1077's circuit protection activated after a few minutes, it simply could not shoulder the load. The same thing happened when I originally bought my XT's (5.1) and a rotel 1067, that is why originally bought the 1095 which drove the 5.1 system splendidly, at any level, all day long. When I bought the 2 additional XT2 for 7.1, I put the XT4's on a 1080 by themselves and put all the surrounds on the 1095. The results are amazing (I also have 2 PV1's). The only thing I have heard that surpasses my present system was a full 8 series surround with 802 mains, not because sound quality was significantly better, but because much higher sound levels were possible. Of course, my whole XT system cost as much as a pair of 802's, the 8 surround system I was listening to was 50K (factor of 5)! BTW they were driving the 8 system with multiple Rotel 500watt class D amps. Class D's are great, they simply cannot violate the laws of physics. The 1077 is great for driving efficient systems something the XT's are not. The XT's can deliver fabulous sound but they require huge amounts of current to do so. :W

I suspect the Xt4's are the main culprits. A beefier stereo amp could handle the xt4's and the 1077 would take care of the rest.

[WI Rotel]

I suspect the Xt4's are the main culprits. A beefier stereo amp could handle the xt4's and the 1077 would take care of the rest.

Very true. However, why buy a 7 channel amp when 5 will do?

[WI Rotel]

Thanks KMcheng, I know the 1069 will not decode DTS hd master audio you need to feed it decoded signal. However, the RSP-1069 will not add any post processing to a multi-channel PCM input so if you have a 5.1 video but a 7.1 setup you loose the back. I wish the 1069 would do more flexible processing and decoding. It would be easier to route the audio from an BD drive in a Mac/PC. It is extremely difficult to get high quality audio out of a Mac/PC while the video side is not a problem at all. I can define 5.1 and 7.1 output, but the new formats are missing. Optical doesn't have the bandwith with current protocol and hardware. LPCM apparently has. I also gather that "can decode Master audio" in a manual only means that the player will read it but not necessarily that it also can put this out. I probably wait for the Panasonic BD-50. Otherwise I hope Rotel gets the problems with the 1069 straighten out soon.

AS I have been learning, even players that tout DTS HD decoding (as the sony top dog Blue ray player) will decode the "master" version only to 5.1 (which any DTS decoder will do since its backward compatible with other codecs)! The DTS HD high rez version is decoded to 7.1 but not to the highest bit rate allowed in the spec, HOWEVER, further reading into the issue shows that studios do not record at the highest available bit rate for DTS HD surround material anyway!! It appears that only Dolby true HD has its duckies in order, DTS HD is still a "standard" in flux (an oxymoron if I have ever heard one!). I would simply ignore the whole thing for a few years till DTS gets its sh*% together!

[Ferres]

Very true. However, why buy a 7 channel amp when 5 will do?

Just an option if you want to save a bit of electricity. :P

[Nolan B]

DTS MA coming to PS3

in case no one wonders into the A/V Chalet where I posted this.

http://www.dtsonline.com/company/press/press-article.php?ID=1601180336&cID=1&yID=2008

[WI Rotel]

in case no one wonders into the A/V Chalet where I posted this.



http://www.dtsonline.com/company/pre...cID=1&yID=2008

My guess its that its a simple software upgrade, therefore it should be available for the BD players soon. I guess I won't have to wait too long!

[WI Rotel]

Thanks KMcheng, I know the 1069 will not decode DTS hd master audio you need to feed it decoded signal. However, the RSP-1069 will not add any post processing to a multi-channel PCM input so if you have a 5.1 video but a 7.1 setup you loose the back. I wish the 1069 would do more flexible processing and decoding. It would be easier to route the audio from an BD drive in a Mac/PC. It is extremely difficult to get high quality audio out of a Mac/PC while the video side is not a problem at all. I can define 5.1 and 7.1 output, but the new formats are missing. Optical doesn't have the bandwith with current protocol and hardware. LPCM apparently has. I also gather that "can decode Master audio" in a manual only means that the player will read it but not necessarily that it also can put this out. I probably wait for the Panasonic BD-50. Otherwise I hope Rotel gets the problems with the 1069 straighten out soon.

If the player decodes the 7.1 format (DTS HD and Dolby true HD) the 1069 will provide the rears too! IThe 1069 is a full 7.1 pre, it will play all the PCM streams it receives up to 7.1. This info can only be transmitted through HDMI 1.1 or above. However, as you have pointed out the 1069 cannot decode the HD formats itself, futhermore to transmit native DTS HD and Dolby true HD bitstreams HDMI 1.3 is required. At present less than a handful of receivers decode DTS Master and as far as I can see only one BD player ( a 2000 dollar denon) can decode DTS master audio.

[DL86]

And inbuilt decoding in the processor will be useless. Most players on the market decode the audio in the player and send it as PCM. If your receiver/processor doesn't have inbuild decoding and your player can decode the signal internally than it won't make a difference if your processor did have internal decoding. End of the day a HDMI 1.1 processor/receiver will be sufficient to play HD audio given it can play audio over HDMI.

[WI Rotel]

And inbuilt decoding in the processor will be useless. Most players on the market decode the audio in the player and send it as PCM. If your receiver/processor has inbuilt decoding and your player decodes the signal internally than it won't matter if you have or don't have decoding capability in your dsp. End of the day a HDMI 1.1 processor/receiver will be sufficient to play HD audio given it can play audio over HDMI.

Exactly right! :T

[wettou]

Blu Ray specs and movies are set up to do the decoding in the player not the decoder! The problem is that Blu Ray launched a half baked product and is now finally coming up with profile 2.0 and decoding of all new codec

[WI Rotel]

Blu Ray specs and movies are set up to do the decoding in the player not the decoder! The problem is that Blu Ray launched a half baked product and is now finally coming up with profile 2.0 and decoding of all new codec

You mean the Pre don't you?????

[scanido]

Blu Ray specs and movies are set up to do the decoding in the player not the decoder! The problem is that Blu Ray launched a half baked product and is now finally coming up with profile 2.0 and decoding of all new codec

Can you provide a link to this statement??

[cxc21]

Exactly right! :T

Not so! If your processor doesn't do postprocessing of LPCM (and which one does?) how do you play a 5.1 disc on a 7.1 setup? I am not certain, but it appears that most player just put out on PCM what's on the disc either 5.1 or 7.1?

[cxc21]

Exactly right! :T

Not so! If your processor doesn't do postprocessing of LPCM (and which one does?) how do you play a 5.1 disc on a 7.1 setup? I am not certain, but it appears that most player just put out on PCM what's on the disc either 5.1 or 7.1?

[cxc21]

cxc21,

Yes, these are pretty nice toys. An opportunity presented itself, including high WAF. Your estimate for the screen is pretty accurate. It's a vicious circle. Once you start getting the really good stuff, you want to try to keep the whole system in balance. I'm quite fortunate that it can be done in a relatively short amount of time.

I love your question about what's next. I do tend to think ahead, even in the midst of a current upgrade. However, this time, I haven't really thought ahead. I think the first thing will be some acoustic treatments.

How about 3d Movies? Starting 2009 all Pixar movies will be 3D.

[cxc21]

If the player decodes the 7.1 format (DTS HD and Dolby true HD) the 1069 will provide the rears too! IThe 1069 is a full 7.1 pre, it will play all the PCM streams it receives up to 7.1. This info can only be transmitted through HDMI 1.1 or above. However, as you have pointed out the 1069 cannot decode the HD formats itself, futhermore to transmit native DTS HD and Dolby true HD bitstreams HDMI 1.3 is required. At present less than a handful of receivers decode DTS Master and as far as I can see only one BD player ( a 2000 dollar denon) can decode DTS master audio.

The problem is: if you have a 7.1 setup driven by the 1069 but have a 5.1 disc (many are) and use PCM you will only have front and center output the back will by dead. There is no postprocessing of PCM in the 1069.

[wettou]

Yes it sounds great the problem is there are very few if almost non existent 7.1 Blu Ray DVDs!! Here is a great site that will tell you what is available!

http://www.blu-raystats.com/stats.php?OrderBy=Title&Studio=Fox

[WI Rotel]

Yes it sounds great the problem is there are very few if almost non existent 7.1 Blu Ray DVDs!! Here is a great site taht will tell you what is available!

http://www.blu-raystats.com/stats.ph...tle&Studio=Fox

Must concur. Went to best buy and among the hundreds of titles they had there were exactly zero 7.1 titles.
Evn more interesting is that there was one single DTS HD master audio BUT it was 5.1 :roll: ops:

[wettou]

Does any one knows of any future Blu Ray movies with DTS- Master Audio 7.1 or Dolby Digital tru HD 7.1

[WI Rotel]

The problem is: if you have a 7.1 setup driven by the 1069 but have a 5.1 disc (many are) and use PCM you will only have front and center output the back will by dead. There is no postprocessing of PCM in the 1069.

This is also true.

[WI Rotel]

Interesting. Today I was playing apocalypto (very recommended). Although my layer is set to PCM only, it still played the movie in dolby digital till I went to the movie's audio section and set it to uncompressed audio. The movie proper "controlled" the player's audio seting eventhough the players settings are at PCM and not automatic
BTW the uncompressed PCM 5.1 was indeed superior than the dolby Digital sound track. The sound was unbelievably clear, there is a part in the movie where the hero is getting shot at with arrows, it feels like the arrows are flying around you, the first surprise shot makes you actualy move out of the way reflexively!!

[Ferres]

I think only dtsHD disks has dtsHD as a default audio setting. The rest, you'll still need to select a format.

[Nolan B]

Interesting. Today I was playing apocalypto (very recommended). Although my layer is set to PCM only, it still played the movie in dolby digital till I went to the movie's audio section and set it to uncompressed audio. The movie proper "controlled" the player's audio seting eventhough the players settings are at PCM and not automatic
BTW the uncompressed PCM 5.1 was indeed superior than the dolby Digital sound track. The sound was unbelievably clear, there is a part in the movie where the hero is getting shot at with arrows, it feels like the arrows are flying around you, the first surprise shot makes you actualy move out of the way reflexively!!

Setting your player to PCM doesnt mean it will default to the lossless PCM on the disc. Its anoying but you always have to go into the menu on the disc and select it.