Opinions welcomed....

[miner]

Sonically, would a Classe' CAP-2100 outperform my Rotel RC-1090/RB1092 combo OR would I better off replacing one of my current components with something else? My speakers are B&W N804 & ASW800 sub.

[Ferres]

For $4,900, it better be.

Have you already tinkered with the interconnect cables? I'd try squeezing as much performance out of them RC-1090/RB1092 combo first before going to a new system.

[cug]

Sonically, would a Classe' CAP-2100 outperform my Rotel RC-1090/RB1092 combo OR would I better off replacing one of my current components with something else? My speakers are B&W N804 & ASW800 sub.

Maybe (!!) it will sound different - if you're lucky and can hear it. Whether you find it better or not - get a listening session.

I'll try to listen to the stuff in a couple of weeks, but I think I'll do blind testing to avoid influences from look/feel/perception.

[miner]

Thanks for your inputs. For cabling I am using Catcables Kingcats which did improve over my previous straightwire symphony ICs. Unfortunately my dealer does not have my pre/amp combo set up to A/B with the Classe' CAP-2100.

[cug]

Thanks for your inputs. For cabling I am using Catcables Kingcats which did improve over my previous straightwire symphony ICs. Unfortunately my dealer does not have my pre/amp combo set up to A/B with the Classe' CAP-2100.

Can you get it for testing for a weekend? Or bring in your own stuff for the comparison? I'd think about ten times before spending serious money on uncertain results.

[Mig17]

Rotel is more dynamic than Classe

[miner]

Rotel is more dynamic than Classe

Are you serious? B&W uses Classe for their speaker testing - Abbery Road Studios uses Classe for their front end on B&Ws. At this time I am not sure Ican justify the outlay fo rthe improvements. After selling my current front end I expect my net outlay would be $2500

[cug]

Are you serious? B&W uses Classe for their speaker testing - Abbery Road Studios uses Classe for their front end on B&Ws. At this time I am not sure Ican justify the outlay fo rthe improvements. After selling my current front end I expect my net outlay would be $2500

Maybe you want to read this:

http://sound.westhost.com/amp-sound.htm

And still: do a/b testing with the Classé gear. What does it help if you spend a lot of money and don't get a REAL benefit? I don't say, you won't get, I'm just not sure whether you really get a benefit and whether it justifies the expense. Probably spending the same amount of money in new CDs and DVDs will give you more pleasure ... :P

[hifiguymi]

For $4,900, it better be.

The CAP-2100 is now $5,500.00US (retail on a new one).

[cug]

The CAP-2100 is now $5,500.00US (retail on a new one).

Yeah, totally sucks. I think that this piece is way overpriced. "Audiophiles" are just willing enough to spend that much money. And there are too many with too much money.

[hifiguymi]

Yeah, totally sucks. I think that this piece is way overpriced. "Audiophiles" are just willing enough to spend that much money. And there are too many with too much money.

I don't think it's overpriced. The CAP-2100 is the exact same amp as the CA-2100 with the CP-500 preamp built in. There are some companies that put a smaller amp and/or power supply in their integrated amps to hit a price point. If you're comparing it to a piece like that it can seem expensive. A case in point is the Krell KAV-400xi. It's not the same amp as the KAV-2250 or the same preamp as the KAV-280p and is priced accordingly. Since the CA-2100 is $4,000.00US and the CP-500 is $4,000.00US, the CAP-2100 is $2,500.00US less and you don't have to buy interconnects. If anything it's a deal compared to its line mates.

Eric

[cug]

I don't think it's overpriced. The CAP-2100 is the exact same amp as the CA-2100 with the CP-500 preamp built in.

I know. I think they are overpriced too. But they are well placed with the competition ... they just don't have to provide decent prices (like the computer industry has to).

If anything it's a deal compared to its line mates.

That it definitely is. I guess I would even spend the money on the CAP-2100, what I HATE way more is the price of their cheapest cd player.

And I'm not a cheapo guy - I pay decent money for decent equipment. I only think that the gain you get is not nearly on par with the price difference.

[hifiguymi]

I only think that the gain you get is not nearly on par with the price difference.

That is everything in the Hi-Fi world. If you look at a $400.00 CP player and an $800.00 one, the more expensive one isn't twice as good. Those prices are in reach of a lot of people so we don't look at it as twice as much. When you talk about $4000.00 compared to $8000.00 it's a little different. Someone spending $4000.00 usually isn't the same person as the one spending $8000.00. It's twice the money (and usually a similar increment in performance) and a totally different price bracket.

Eric

[cug]

Someone spending $4000.00 usually isn't the same person as the one spending $8000.00. It's twice the money (and usually a similar increment in performance) and a totally different price bracket.

I seriously doubt that - and I have some experience (was a sound engineer for a long time).

The increment in performance is normally smaller the higher the prices of the equipment you compare. Saying you might get 20% more for 100% price increment, but only 30% more for a 200% price increment.

This is everywhere the case and nothing to be worried about from your perspective as a sales person. The Hi-Fi world is just the only one not being honest about that. It would be far more honest to handle it the same way the car industry does: "the increment from a Mercedes SLK to a small Porsche might not be double the performance with double the price, but it is sooooo much cooler to drive the Porsche ..."

But Hi-Fi-world is often ridiculous in its claims. And I'm not talking about snake oil, I talk about products that do deliver a performance increase but they are not talking about WHY price differences exist:

- Rotel uses standard modules for their amplifiers. These can be massproduced on a budget.

- Classé sells just a fraction of the numbers Rotel does, therefore production and development broken down to sold units are WAY HIGHER without giving the same increment in performance.

- Because of more units sold ALL parts are cheaper, the case, even the power cord.

- Classé probably uses some very specific components and the same "number of units sold effects price" effects the components and therefore the end result.

But still, many people claim that get twice the performance for equipment twice as expensive - which is just not true. The truth is, that getting to the last 10% always takes another 90% effort. Or more.

In my work (software engineer), there is the saying that it takes 90% of the time to finish 90% of the project and another 90% of the time to finish the last 10%. And the same is true (or worse) for audio performance.

Okay, this reflects my opinion, but not only mine and is based on some solid experience. I'm not pulling that out somewhere ...

[Alaric]

cug , while your points are valid , the manufacturer will also source cheaper parts based on larger production runs (generally-not intended to be case-specific). Saving $.30 on a part is minimal when you sell 500 units per year-if you sell 5000 units per year the profit increases significantly.
Some manufacturers are not publicly owned , which makes them less beholden to accountants.

This is everywhere the case and nothing to be worried about from your perspective as a sales person. The Hi-Fi world is just the only one not being honest about that. It would be far more honest to handle it the same way the car industry does: "the increment from a Mercedes SLK to a small Porsche might not be double the performance with double the price, but it is sooooo much cooler to drive the Porsche ..."

Using the car analogy , speed costs money-how fast ya wanna go? (and second place is the first loser) :lol:

Having said all that , your post was very good. It offered a lot of insight into the business. :T

[cug]

Using the car analogy , speed costs money-how fast ya wanna go? (and second place is the first loser) :lol:

Have you ever read how much power it takes to reach a 100km/h and than how much more to reach the 200km/h mark and the 300km/h mark? It is similar.

And again: the last 10% are the hardest to achieve. Like, how many people in the world can run 100m in 11 seconds? We had even one in my class at school. Now, how many can run the same distance in 10 seconds? And that's just the ten percent increase too.

The one thing I'd really like to see in Hi-Fi or High-End world is more honesty. From manufacturers, sales persons (okay Guido, dream on), reviewers and even owners.

[Alaric]

The one thing I'd really like to see in Hi-Fi or High-End world is more honesty.

I tend to agree. I've auditioned a bunch of stuff in the last month-and a goodly portion of it was crap . If you're thinking of buying a Bryston CD player , for example , listen to one first-before lunch. I'm still very happy with my mid-fi Marantz SACD player after hearing the Levinson , Cambridge Audio , Ayre , and McCormack Audio players. Some were definitely better-but not $ 600 better-and that was the best-case scenario. One player was NOT $5700 better-none of them were. The closest bang-per-buck player I heard was $600 more than mine. It didn't sound $600 better. Using a mathematical algorithm , the Levinson 390s should cost $2500 max. Bearing in mind the percentage of difference is my own perception (yeah , find the 'constant' in that equation!) I am quite satisfied with the smile-per-dollar my little SA8260 delivers.