Disappointed with my RA-02 set up

[sam500]

I'm currently running:

Rotel RA-02 Amp
Marantz CD-50001
Linn Tukan's

Having finally got my system up and running after a silly blown fuse incident I'm back to being deflated again. I guess I'm just a bit disappointed with the slight lack of warmth in the sound. There is an excessive brightness (at least to my ears) that could become quite tiring after prolonged listening. Bass (lack of) is a bit of a problem but the Linn's are known for not being the most bass heavy bookshelf speakers around so that wasn't a big surprise.

I've been considering the addition of a (Rel) sub which would certainly clear up some of the bass issues. But not so sure how I can reduce the brightness in the treble and mid-range.

Any advice welcome thanks.

[chinets]

You might need room conditioning. I can't say that the amp would be so bright, because Rotel amps are quite warm. Yes, try and add a Sub for the bass ,which I am not sirprised due to LINN speakers and Rotel amp, but too bright, is what is confusing me.
Can you explain your connections better, and be more detailed with your set up, so we can give you some better advice. Like room shape and measurements, and how you placed your speakers, and how you have all your equipment connected?
Cheers

[sam500]

Thanks for your time. I'm afraid I'm not doing a very good job in articulating exactly what I feel is missing in the sound. Having listened again last night I think it was the flatness in some of the drums that was bothering me most - certainly for 'drum machine' drums (electronica / hip-hop / techno). A decent sub would definitely help here I suppose. This never seemed to be a problem in my old Arcam Alpha 5 / Mission 760 system where the drums sounded warmer and less harsh.

My room is small (dimensions 3.5m x 2.5m). I'm bi-wiring my speakers with fairly budget cable. The interconnects are the ones provided by Marantz. I have stands which are approx 2m apart and the speakers are placed a couple of inches from the back wall. I hope that helps!

[BTB]

Sam500

Unfortunately, budget electronics matched up to tiny loudspeakers are likely to give these types of results in general.

Have you ever read the Stereophile review of your loudspeakers... the last paragraph of the reviewers comments are basically word for word the type of sound you're complaining about.

Perhaps a change of loudspeaker could be considered? Something with a smoother overall balance? Or perhaps a new cd player with a slightly fuller bottom end and finer treble... the Consonance CD120 Linear come to mind, a super option without breaking the bank.

[chinets]

I second BTB,
Get different speakers to start of with, and your CD player shaould have been a LINN player instead of LINN speakers. Then you would have had very smooth, warm and a tight bass. You will need a sub for sure NOW !!!
Try B&W speakers , Krell speakers or even Klipsch speakers,that would give you a better bass and smoother overall balance to your system.
Cheers

[sam500]

Yeah you're probably both right.

I'm still not convinced by my Rotel though. I just tried running the Linn's through an awful Onkyo mini I have lying around (in conjunction with the Marantz) and it still sounds better. The sound I'm getting with the RA-02 is utterly lifeless in comparison. The reason I picked up the Linn's in the first place was because my last speakers sounded so awful with the Rotel. In hindsight maybe the speakers weren't the problem.

Perhaps I need my ears testing. Or I'm a wannabe audiophile who's probably better off with the latest Onkyo $400 micro system. Probably both!

[mjb]

Yeah you're probably both right. Perhaps I need my ears testing. Or I'm a wannabe audiophile who's probably better off with the latest Onkyo $400 micro system. Probably both!

You're better off with whatever sounds best for you!
The RA-02 always gets good reviews (although I've never heard one), so something must be amiss. I'd suggest some decent speaker cable over bi-wiring with budget stuff too.

[BTB]

Perhaps I need my ears testing. Or I'm a wannabe audiophile who's probably better off with the latest Onkyo $400 micro system. Probably both!

No Sam, that can't be right man!!

I don't know if you had any intention of upgrading any of your components when you first posted this thread, but being unhappy with the way your favourite music is reproduced can be very frustrating to say the least!! I know... first hand.

I'm guessing that you don't want to break the bank upgrading the whole system, so try and do things piece by piece. If I was to guess (having owned Rotel amplification before) the amp is probably not the biggest problem in your system at the moment, I've never heard those Linn speakers but judging by the reviewers comments it would appear obvious that that's where the major issue lies at present.

I would recommend that you try out some B&W's 602 S3's. The tweeter can (on occasion) have a bit of "sizzle" to it (esp. when playing bright and edgy recordings), but it has a bigger main driver and cabinet than most other standmount speakers around it's price, so it is obviously capable of a more realistic bass response which will go a long way in (subjectively) balancing the top end.

Next, you could probably do with a better source too, CD is a mature technology... you don't have to spend a truck load to get better sound than the Marantz you currently own. I own that Consonance CD 120 linear I suggested before, it really is a fantastic machine and it's not that expensive in audiophile terms. But there are many options in that price bracket, so visit some shops and listen to a few, maybe one will get your attention. First prize will be to loan one to listen to at home, ditto for the speakers.

Lastly (and I would probably recommend you do this when you audition loudspeakers), try some quality interconnects and speaker cable... you don't have to spend the earth and as far as possible try before you buy. When I first got into audio I genuinely thought the cable stuff was a bunch of hot air, well let's just say experience has taught me otherwise.

Regarding the Rotel...it's probably as a good an example of a decent solid state integrated as you're likely to buy around that price range, and it will make a good match with those B&W 602's. Once you've got the source and speakers sorted out, you can look at other amp options, but in my opinion that Rotel is a decent building block on your path to a better system...

So just to recap - change the speakers first, the cd player next and the amp last... I'd say you'll build a much better system that way, with much less frustration.

Good luck, if you decide to go for it, and if you do; let us know how it turns out. Oh, and... Relax and enjoy the process! AND... even more important, enjoy the music!! :T

[sam500]

Thanks BTB for writing such a lengthy and informative piece. Much appreciated! :T

Based on your own and everyone else's comments it would seem that my speakers are first in line for the chop. I had such high hopes for them especially after hearing many loving comments from owners. Actually, my biggest problem is that I'm based in Japan and and unable to convey to shop owners my requirements. There's some great gear over here but due to my limited language skills I can't enter into any meaningful hi-fi discussions! Here's where I bought the Linn's from earlier this year:

http://www.u-audio.com/index.html

I'd hate to get rid of the RA-02 because I'm sure it's highly capable with the right speakers. I just need the chance to test some speakers with it before I waste anymore money. I will certainly look into the B&W's 602 S3's and maybe even the Consonance if I'm feeling rich.

Thanks everyone.

[fordster]

Owning an RA-01 myself (an RA-02 without the remote control) I'd say it is a (slighty) lean sounding amp. I also own an RA-1062 which is a different (and better) sound. That's not to say the RA-02 is a bad amp just that it needs careful partnering to get the best out of it. I use an RCD-02 CD player which is also lean but have Quad 11L speakers which help to warm the sound up. If you like a warmer sound then I'd suggest swapping the RA-02 for an Arcam amp (e.g. the A65 which is around the same price range) as Arcam gear is quite warm.

[BTB]

Dave

I wouldn't go throwing the baby out with the bathwater ... while I agree with your view that the RA 02 sounds a bit lean (and I'll add to that a little forward sounding too) it's still a decent enough amp considering it's price... besides, the sonic differences between amps in this price sector aren't as big as the payoff afforded by making the correct speaker choice.

The original Kan had a reputation for "paint stripping treble", seems the Tukan didn't fall too far from the tree... I really don't reckon an amp upgrade is going to sort that issue out.

That's basically why I've made the recommendations that I have (based on what I understand to be the sonic expectations of the O.P)... The Consonance is essentially laid back in character (which should counter the Rotel's forwardness), with ever so slight mid bass emphasis (which should counter the Rotel slight leaness) and finely drawn treble (which should soften the slight "tizz" in the B&W's tweeter). Then with the 602's in the picture you'll basically have a more neutral (than the Linn) speaker to begin with and the whole lot should hang together very nicely.

Just a suggestion built around the Rotel, which the O.P has already said he'd like to hold onto for a while.

[howzitwerk]

I think you should try several different speaker placement changes before buying new electronics.

You may have them too close to the wall, you said they were only a couple inches from the wall. Move them out 3 ft or so from the wall, and use different listening positions. If you want more bass, take them off the stands and try them on the floor, tilted up. I have a small pair that sound pretty good like that, but very dead (in comparison) when a couple feet off the floor.


Or another possibility, maybe your system is now "too transparent". When you get things clean enough in the system, you then hear all the limitations of the recording. Stuff you used to like on your old system, you now hear all the flaws, and don't like it as much. I'm shopping for new, remasters of many CDs I already have, because they now sound flat and dull compared to other good recordings, small soundstage, etc. Good remasters makes a big difference. You are more used to the sound of your "cheap" Onkyo, now you are hearing everything, it sounds different. But since someone mentioned a review complaining of the same things on those speakers, that's more likely the issue.

[sam500]

Just a brief update regarding the problem I originally posted a few weeks ago. I followed all your advice......kind of. I replaced the Linn's with some B&W CM1's which of course not only look fantastic but sound great too. Enough warmth and bass extension for my needs - I'm enjoying my cd collection again. I'd love to know what the Linn's need to sound okay. Perhaps a £2000 sub-woofer!!

However, before that I did actually replace the Rotel with a secondhand Arcam A85 I saw going relatively cheaply. Unfortunately I never got to hear the Rotel with the CM1's but I'm sure it would have been perfectly fine.

Now I can start thinking about cd players. Perhaps next year

[calmac]

Having had a great deal of experience with the previous version of the Tukan , Kantu ,I think the major problem would be that good as the little RA02 is it's not really in the ballpark as a qualitative match for the Linn speakers.I would also go as far as to say that I don't believe that Linn and Rotel products work particularly well together based on my experience of selling both at the same shop and having had both at home.
Gordon