DD+/DTS HD on 1098/1068

[DrJRapp]

Does anone have any word on wether Rotel will be offerring software updates to the new formats? Since the bitrates are not higher than required for DTS 24/96 there should be sufficient processing power in both the 1098 and 1068 to handle the new formats.

[aud19]

Those formats require an HDMI connection though so I'd guess no. Though you can use the players decoding and the analog connections to them...

[DrJRapp]

Those formats require an HDMI connection though so I'd guess no.

I don't believe that is an entirely true statement..... both DD+ and DTS HD signals are supposed to be present at the PCM outputs (Coax and Toslink) in the Toshiba A1.

[aud19]

I could be be wrong but my understanding was that current generation HDMI (1.1 and 1.2) will be able to transmit the player decoded PCM over HDMI only to HDMI capable processors. The coax/toslink connections get the downsampled version. So you're only option as far as I know is HDMI or analog connections for the HD-Audio tracks.

[DrJRapp]

Not according to Toshiba, the spdif or digital (optical/coax) connections are supposed to support the advanced formats. What you seem to be looking at are the lmitations of the HDMI spec, not the performance of the players. Whatever the case, these seems to be some problems with some earlier units.

One can listen to 5.1 channels of the 7.1 channel DD+ by using the analog inputs.....but who wants that if they own a 7.1 system?

[aud19]

Lot's of pre's have 7.1 analog ins Where did you see this info from Toshiba? Everything I've seen say's the HD-Audio is only available via analog, HDMI 1.1+ player decoded PCM or HDMI 1.3.

Just looking on Toshiba's page under "Detailed Specs" it looks like it only supports 5.1 L-PCM over HDMI.

http://www.tacp.toshiba.com/dvd/product.asp?model=hd-xa1

[DrJRapp]

The owner's manual.

[aud19]

It also looks like Dolby's Lossless format, Dolby True HD, will only be supported up to 2-ch, not 5.1 or 7.1. Dolby Digital Plus is a lossy format that will be supported in multichannel. So in that case you may be right that the lossy format is avaialable over SPDIF

[aud19]

The HD-XA1 can pass digital information to a surround sound processor/receiver with either S/PDIF or HDMI. For Dolby Digital and DTS soundtracks, the bit stream will be passed through both connections just as in a standard DVD player with the same interfaces. Dolby Digital Plus and DTS-HD soundtracks will be converted to a standard bit stream (i.e. Dolby Digital) output through S/PDIF or HDMI. Additionally all the HD-XA1’s supported audio formats can be decoded to PCM and output via HDMI in either stereo or 5.1 multi-channel, depending on the original soundtrack.

Seems to me that means that DD+ and DTD-HD can be downconverted to transmit over SPDIF/HDMI for compatability with older processors but to get the native format it must be transmitted via HDMI.

[DrJRapp]

Don't know where you got that....owners manual pg 59 says DD+ and DTS HD both supported in 5 ch in bitstream over SPDIF, also as dowmmix.

It doesn't appear there is anything present through HDMI that does't come thru S/PDIF

[Nolan B]

Dr...of topic, but just curious, Have you got any movies yet?

[DrJRapp]

nope

[DrJRapp]

I took a trip thru a ton of literature before coming to the conclusion that it might be awhile before we see processors that can handle the DD+ and DTS HD formats. The issue seems to be standardizations within the decoders don't really exist yet, and are unlikely until HDMI 1.3 arrives. Also, it appears that Blu-Ray may handle 7.1 under HDMI 1.3 before HD DVD does.

[bleeding ears]

guys, as the owner of a Rotel 1068 (no hdmi) I find this subject very interesting, however I am getting lost in the acronyms etc.

Eg could someone explain what SPDIF means for us uneducated folk.

Thanks Pete

[Aussie Geoff]

Hi,

HTGuide member, Kal Rubinson has this covered in his "Music in the Round" column in the May Sterophile. Essentially (summarising the article):

>>Dolby True HD and DTS Master Audio can do up to 8 channels of lossless Audio.
>>Transmitting this requires higher bandwidth than can be supported over SPDIF
>>More importantly, the high bandwidth signals worry the studios (as with DVD-A and SACD) so they are insistiing on a further development of HDMI (1.3) to provide even more complex end to end enctryption as a way of trying to protect the signal
>>The HDMI 1.3 standard is not finalised (sigh!)
>>So the early release players like the Toshiba are releasing all sorts of downcoverted signals over SPDIF and HDMI 1.1 with lossy encoding or lower frequency sampling etc to still get a signal out...
>>This still sounds very good - so the good news is you can get some of the benefit of the new audio formats with your existing processors.
>>We will need to wait for 2nd or thrd generation players and the matching Recievers to prococess the HDMI 1.3 signal

Now my opinion is:
>>Sadly, there is a chance that all this is going to be come so complex the format will be crippled for the publics acceptance for many years (like DVD-A and SACD)
>>The reality is that software developers will crack the format withing months making the whole HDMI 1.3 mess uneccessary... Indeed the studios insistence on the security is likely to delay for years the acceptance of the format, while ever it it too complex to use...

Geoff

[Kobus]

Eg could someone explain what SPDIF means for us uneducated folk.

Thanks Pete

Sony/Philips Digital InterFace

It's the coax and optical(toslink) connector on your DVD player, used to transfer digital audio.

Due to limited bandwidth it can not be used for sacd and dvd-audio. I think the reason is bandwidth, it might be security / copywrite issues as well.

Kobus

[Aussie Geoff]

Due to limited bandwidth it can not be used for sacd and dvd-audio. I think the reason is bandwidth, it might be security / copywrite issues as well.

Sadly it's mostly security and copywrite. As you will see from this (very informative) link on digital data formats a properly implemented SPDIF interface can support a 192 Kz sampling rate - which is the maximum of SACD and DVD-A...

However the recording studios were worried about letting their high quality (near master level) digital signal out - hence they got th DVD Forum to restricte the use of DVD-Audio - leadin to its near death do to being too hard to use! Sony, owners of the SACD standard and the CBS record label did the same thing with their technology with similar results!

Geoff

[Adz]

Any feedback on the audio quality from the downconverted signals using spdif or HDMI 1.1 versus the analog outs on the HD DVD players (which is using the DVD players DACs/bass management but at least would be a Hi-Def signal)?

[Clepto]

Not according to Toshiba, the spdif or digital (optical/coax) connections are supposed to support the advanced formats. What you seem to be looking at are the lmitations of the HDMI spec, not the performance of the players. Whatever the case, these seems to be some problems with some earlier units.

One can listen to 5.1 channels of the 7.1 channel DD+ by using the analog inputs.....but who wants that if they own a 7.1 system?

Well, all the currently available titles in DD+ are only in 5.1 anyway. I think it'll be a while before you see 7.1 encodes.

On another note, it seems that if you're using SPDIF on the HD DVD players, the DD+ is decoded by the player, then re-encoded in DTS, and then output... Seems like Analog or HDMI is really the way to go.

[aud19]

So the early release players like the Toshiba are releasing all sorts of downcoverted signals over SPDIF and HDMI 1.1 with lossy encoding or lower frequency sampling etc to still get a signal out...

That's what I thought...

[pciav]

Here is a good summary of how digital audio will be handled in the first generation HD-DVD and Blue-Ray Players from DVDFILE . This should clear up a couple of things a little.

Phil C.

[LEVESQUE]

Any feedback on the audio quality from the downconverted signals using spdif or HDMI 1.1 versus the analog outs on the HD DVD players (which is using the DVD players DACs/bass management but at least would be a Hi-Def signal)?

The Toshiba HD-A1 is working perfectly with the new Anthem D2 and DD+ over HDMI 1.1., and 1080i inverse-telecine form the integrated Gennum VXP scaler of the D2. Perfect match for the Toshiba player.

No downconversion. DD+ over HDMI 1.1.

Unbelievable picture quality at 1080p with a Sony Ruby. It's a pre/pro... with better picture quality then the DVDO and Lumagen scalers out there that are not able to perform true inverse-telecine of 1080i.

[aud19]

No downconversion. DD+ over HDMI 1.1.

What about over SPDIF?

[rushisrighton]

Hi,


Now my opinion is:
>>Sadly, there is a chance that all this is going to be come so complex the format will be crippled for the publics acceptance for many years (like DVD-A and SACD)
>>The reality is that software developers will crack the format withing months making the whole HDMI 1.3 mess uneccessary... Indeed the studios insistence on the security is likely to delay for years the acceptance of the format, while ever it it too complex to use...

Geoff

So true, nothing in todays age says steal/hack me like encryption. It seems like this is becoming a lucrative business, design something to be hacked, so you can come up with something new, that gets hacked again, a lucrative circel. Sometimes I feel like I'm the sheep whos buying insurance from the wolf.

[Stevebez]

The way HDMI / Blue-Ray / HD-DVD are going it will be obsolete before we see agreement over all the issues... its really draging on too long now...

I for one will wait until all the dust has settled before I commit to anything.

For backward compatibility it seems HD-DVD should have the edge but BR has the extra capacity ... who cares ... just agree and share the profits OK!

Geez these guys are a greedy stubborn bunch.

Classic revisit of the VHS / BETA war ... the interesting thing there was the inferior format won ... (sorry dont want to start a flame).

Rgds Steve.

[Clepto]

For backward compatibility it seems HD-DVD should have the edge but BR has the extra capacity ... who cares ... just agree and share the profits OK!

I'm guessing this is in refrence to the requirement of a 3-way OPU for BD to playback CD + DVD + BD vs. a 2-way for HD DVD... I know the Sony BD launch player may not have CD playback, but that's a limitation of the specific player, not of the format itself...

[Stevebez]

Well the BR format uses different laser to HD DVD - which means it reads more bits per/second than HD DVD can, so they can pack more info so sounds like a format issue to me, as this laser cannot read standard DVD.

Also mbe HD DVD will not allow BR licence to incorporate DVD backward compatibility - pure guess here though.

All I know is they should have both climbed off their high horses 2 years ago and agreed on some common ground - HD DVD probably should just have bought BR out - but guess they were not selling.

I dont really care who wins here at all ... just let them sort it all out NOW!...
as I only want a universal player. There is no way I will buy 2/3 units to play CD/SACD/DVD -Audio/HD-DVD/BlueRay.

Same goes for HDMI - although there is not really a competing format here or is there ?

Rgds Steve

[aud19]

Well the BR format uses different laser to HD DVD - which means it reads more bits per/second than HD DVD can, so they can pack more info so sounds like a format issue to me, as this laser cannot read standard DVD.

Both formats use a blue/violet laser. The difference lies more in layer depths and the distances between pits. BluRay has closer pits and a thinner layer structure hence it's higher capacity. Both players will utilize a seperate red laser to read SD-DVD's CD's etc.