RCD-855 or Oppo DVD. Which has superior SQ?

[bigburner]

I love watching music DVDs, and I want to improve the quality of the audio side. I currently use an LG DVD which is connected to my Rotel / B&W hi-fi system.

I’m therefore looking for a reasonably priced DVD player that is highly regarded for its sound quality. I was interested in Rotel but I’m now tempted by the Oppo OPDV971H because it's inexpensive and the video quality is rated so highly. However, can anyone comment on the sound quality of this DVD player?

I'm also interested to know whether a modern DVD player like the Oppo will provide superior sound quality to my 13-year old Rotel RCD-855, thereby enabling me to play CDs and DVDs on the same device and free up space in my cabinet. Do any of you have an opinion on this?

Here’s an interesting excerpt from “The Absolute Sound” about my beloved RCD-855 and the much admired RCD-1072. This is why I need a good reason to retire the 855.

Porsche 911, BMW 2002, Jaguar XKE. What do these storied automobiles have in common, aside from their iconic status? All were products that single-handedly defined the essence of their builder. In the audio world, one equivalent is the Rotel RCD-855. A dozen years ago, it alerted the world that a high-end CD player could be built for under $500. The 855’s introduction produced chagrin among competitors, and euphoria among consumers, who bought it in droves.

Since then, Rotel has applied the 855’s successful high-performance/high-value formula to the entire spectrum of audio electronics. And yet, there hasn’t been a bona fide successor to the product that started it all. Certainly the company has produced many a fine CD player in the intervening years. But none has coupled landmark performance with affordability quite so convincingly as the original. That situation has now changed. Rotel’s new RCD-1072 is nearly as attractively priced today (accounting for inflation) as was the RCD-855 in 1991.

[Taito]

Hi Bigburner, I haven't heard the Oppo. While the 1072 pretty soundly beats the 855 (my dad has one), his 855 is, IMO, better than a 945 (which I picked up about 2 years ago). I'm pretty sure I'd take the 855 over a 4 year old (basic) pioneer dvd player that I've been using too (if I only wanted to play CD's). For its age, the 855 is a good disc spinner.

To be honest, I don't think that a player, such as the Oppo, which retails for approximatly $200 US (I think) and has heaps of features, will have a fantastic analogue audio stage. However, as stated above, I've never even seen an Oppo, let alone heard one. My comments regarding the Oppo are speculation.

Hope this helps, Ben

[bigburner]

Thanks Ben. Do these specs tell you anything about the SQ of the Oppo?

Hardware:
RF AMP/Servo DSP/CD Decoder/DVD Decoder: MTK1389
Memory (Flash): 8M(bit)/16M(bit)
Memory (DRAM/SDRAM/SRAM): 32Mbit/64Mbit
D/A Converter for Video: MTK1389 108MHz/12bit & CS4955 54MHz/12bit
D/A Converter for Audio: CS4360 192KHz/24bit
Loader: Sanyo Optics DV34S

Audio:
192 KHz Sampling Frequency, 24-Bit High Quality Audio DAC
Dolby Digital Down-mixed 2-Ch Stereo (L. R)
Built-in Dolby digital Decoder, Dolby Digital (AC3) 5.1 Channel Output
Built-in DTS Digital Decoder, DTS 5.1 Channel Output
Dolby Digital/DTS/LCPM Bitstream Output
3D Surround (Virtual Surround): Concert, Live, Dance, Techno, Classic, Soft

Audio Characteristic:
Frequency: 20Hz~20KHz
Signal-to-Noise Ratio: >90db
Dynamic Range: ≥ 80 (1KHz)
Total Harmonic Distortion: <0.01%

[gianni]

I don't think the specs would allow anyone to make such a judgement except in the case where they revealed clearly inferior components. As unfortunate as it is, there is really no way to know unless you have a listen.

The only other option would be to find someone like Jerry who owns an Oppo and might have made comparisons to his other players.

[DrJRapp]

What aspect of Audio are you concerned about? Digital multi-track, analog 2 channel or analog multi-track.

If it is digital multi-track you are concerned with then the Oppo will, like any other DVD player, function purely as a transport, (a good stable one at that with it's Sony-designed Sanyo-built SACD loader) and your pre-pro or receiver will do the yeoman work of conversion to the analog domain, therefore it will determine the overall sound quality, not the Oppo. If your concern is analog 2 channel then we have to look at the fact that the Oppo uses the exact same Crystal Semicondutor 192/24 bit DACs as does the RDV 1060, so it should sound roughtly similar. Some people even say that it will outperform the Burr Browns in the RCD 1072, however, I myself like the Burr Brown sound, that's why I have a dedicated ($2K)CD player that utilizes them. The DACs in the Oppo basically are the same DACs that also appear in the RSP 1098 and 1068, so I can't imagine why someone with either of those components would use the analog 2 channel output of the Oppo anyway. Why incurr the cost of more cables? As`for multi-channel audio such as DVD Audio and SACD, I would have to vote for the Oppo over the RCD 855 because if my memory serves me correctly, the 855 didn't have those modes back in it's day. I used to play SACD from the Oppo to the Multi-inputs of my 1098. I found the bass management to be useful, and the Oppo was every bit as clean as my Denon 2900 (very highly regarded for audio) in DVD Audio. I now do all multi-channel audio only thru the Denon, mostly to avoid additional cable overhead.

There are certain members of these forums who, due to their lack of knowledge of the real facts would incorrectly try to lead you to believe that the Oppo is somehow sub-standard due to it's low price and small size. Next time do you homework guys before shooting from the hip. Don't let the low price fool you, the DV971H is every bit as audiophile as an RDV 1060 even though it may not be as pretty. Audio wise, it will hold it's own with most four figured machines. Build quality is excellent by the way. The Oppo is built by a huge company called Winbase, which is at least as large as Sony or Panasonic. They also build the Cambridge Audio pieces side by side in the same plant, as well as the remotes for Rotel.

[bigburner]

What aspect of Audio are you concerned about? Digital multi-track, analog 2 channel or analog multi-track.

Analogue 2 channel currently. I haven't got into 5.1 or 7.1 yet as my interest is music (CD and DVD), not movies. The new DVD would be connected into my RC-1070 preamp via RCA cables.

Thank you for your comprehensive reply.

[Nolan B]

What aspect of Audio are you concerned about? Digital multi-track, analog 2 channel or analog multi-track.

If it is digital multi-track you are concerned with then the Oppo will, like any other DVD player, function purely as a transport, (a good stable one at that with it's Sony-designed Sanyo-built SACD loader) and your pre-pro or receiver will do the yeoman work of conversion to the analog domain, therefore it will determine the overall sound quality, not the Oppo. If your concern is analog 2 channel then we have to look at the fact that the Oppo uses the exact same Crystal Semicondutor 192/24 bit DACs as does the RDV 1060, so it should sound roughtly similar. Some people even say that it will outperform the Burr Browns in the RCD 1072, however, I myself like the Burr Brown sound, that's why I have a dedicated ($2K)CD player that utilizes them. The DACs in the Oppo basically are the same DACs that also appear in the RSP 1098 and 1068, so I can't imagine why someone with either of those components would use the analog 2 channel output of the Oppo anyway. Why incurr the cost of more cables? As`for multi-channel audio such as DVD Audio and SACD, I would have to vote for the Oppo over the RCD 855 because if my memory serves me correctly, the 855 didn't have those modes back in it's day. I used to play SACD from the Oppo to the Multi-inputs of my 1098. I found the bass management to be useful, and the Oppo was every bit as clean as my Denon 2900 (very highly regarded for audio) in DVD Audio. I now do all multi-channel audio only thru the Denon, mostly to avoid additional cable overhead.

There are certain members of these forums who, due to their lack of knowledge of the real facts would incorrectly try to lead you to believe that the Oppo is somehow sub-standard due to it's low price and small size. Next time do you homework guys before shooting from the hip. Don't let the low price fool you, the DV971H is every bit as audiophile as an RDV 1060 even though it may not be as pretty. Audio wise, it will hold it's own with most four figured machines. Build quality is excellent by the way. The Oppo is built by a huge company called Winbase, which is at least as large as Sony or Panasonic. They also build the Cambridge Audio pieces side by side in the same plant, as well as the remotes for Rotel.

of topic sort of, but would you know what retail chain carrys the oppo? I live in canada and cant find a single one.

[Taito]

Facts eh? Jerry, I do not doubt the digital prowess of the Oppo. BUT, Bigburner has an RC-1070. No processor with DACs (by the looks of his profile). I therefore assume that he would be relying on the Oppo's internal DACs (which are fine) and it's analogue output stage - not so fine in comparison to the Rotel RCD-855. So, in reply to this question:

I'm also interested to know whether a modern DVD player like the Oppo will provide superior sound quality to my 13-year old Rotel RCD-855, thereby enabling me to play CDs and DVDs on the same device and free up space in my cabinet. Do any of you have an opinion on this?

My opinion is that the CD playing performance of the Rotel RCD-855 will be superior to the CD playing performance of the Oppo.

This opinion was formed by looking at the facts. Let's start with some of the specifications supplied Bigburner:

Audio Characteristic:
Frequency: 20Hz~20KHz
Signal-to-Noise Ratio: >90db
Dynamic Range: ≥ 80 (1KHz)
Total Harmonic Distortion: <0.01%

Now, compare these to the RCD-855's equivalent figures:
Frequency: 20Hz~20KHz
SNR: 100dB
Dynamic Range: 96dB
THD + Noise: 0.0025%

Comparing the Signal-to-noise ratio:
The signal to noise ratio of the RCD-855 is 10dB greater than that of the Oppo. FACT: (Assuming both have correct line-level output voltage) The Rotel's analogue stage is 10X less noisy than the Oppo's. 1 point to the Rotel.

Comparing the Dynamic Range:
The dynamic range of the Rotel is 16dB greater than that of the Oppo.
FACT: The dynamic range of the Rotel's analogue stage is 39.81X greater than that for the Oppo's analogue stage. 2 points to the Rotel.

Comparing Total Harminic Distortion:
FACT: The Oppo's analogue output stage has 4X the total harmonic distortion of the Rotel. 3 points to the Rotel.

So, in using the FACTS (based on my homework :W ) and not simply 'shooting from the hip', I still recommend that if Bigburner gets the Oppo, HE SHOULD NOT get rid of the RCD-855.

Jerry, I'm not rubbishing the Oppo, but a LOT more goes into sound quality than just the DACs used. IMO, the statement:

Don't let the low price fool you, the DV971H is every bit as audiophile as an RDV 1060 even though it may not be as pretty.

is rediculous. Let's talk power supply, analogue output stage topology and components, component layout. Despite using the same DAC (I'm relying on your infomation here, haven't checked this), the analogue performance figures for the RDV-1060 are as follows:

Audio characteristics:

Signal / Noise Ratio 110dB

Frequency response:
CD (at 44.1 kHz): 2 Hz to 20 kHz
DVD (at 48 kHz): 2 Hz to 22 kHz
DVD (at 96/88.2 kHz): 2 Hz to 44 kHz
DVD (at 192/176.4 kHz) : 2 Hz to 88 kHz

Dynamic range:
16 bit: more than 100 dB
20 bit: more than 110 dB
24 bit: more than 110 dB

Wow and flutter: Unmeasurable (less than ± 0.002%)
Total harmonic distortion:
16 bit: less than 0.0018%
20/24 bit: less than 0.0012%

The Oppo every bit as audiophile as the RDV-1060? PLEASE.

Now, I previously made clear that I have not heard the Oppo, but based on the details available to me, and my daily experience with a Rotel RCD-855 prior to my pruchase of an RCD-1072, I formed my opinion.

I stated before that my thoughts on the Oppo's analogue output stage were speculation. They still are, but now I would like to make it clear that I DID examine the facts available to me and that I still assert my opinion that the RCD-855 will play CD's better than the Oppo will play CD's.

Bigburner, if CD playback is important to you (and you don't have or plan to buy an external DAC) and you don't want to be disappointed, get the Oppo, or don't get it. But, keep your RCD-855.

-Ben

[bigburner]

Now that's a comprehensive reply!!!

I'll file that one.

[Taito]

No worries Bigburner, procrastination aided that one - I'm on SWOTVAC.

-Ben

[bigburner]

We don't have SWOTVAC here in Zuld.

Is it swot during vacation?

[bigburner]

Now, compare these to the RCD-855's equivalent figures:
Frequency: 20Hz~20KHz
SNR: 100dB
Dynamic Range: 96dB
THD + Noise: 0.0025%

Now, compare these to the RCD-1072's equivalent figures:
Frequency: 20Hz~20KHz
SNR: >100dB
Dynamic Range: >96dB
THD + Noise: 0.0045%


Comparing the Signal-to-noise ratio:
The signal to noise ratio of the RCD-855 is the same as the RCD-1072. 1 point each.

Comparing the Dynamic Range:
The dynamic range of the RCD-855 is the same as the RCD-1072. 1 point each.

Comparing Total Harmonic Distortion:
The RCD-1072’s analogue output stage has 1.8X the total harmonic distortion of the RCD-855. 1 point to the RCD-855.

The RCD-855 wins a tight competition by 1 point!!!

“Keep your RCD-855” you said, Ben. Hell, I’ll be locking it up!

[Taito]

Officially the semester is over, but exams start next week. 2 weeks for exams, 14 weeks of summer (at least it would be if I didn't have to do at least 12 weeks of eng. work experience to graduate next year).

The 855 certainly is a good CDP, although all things considered (and having used both), I'll take my 1072 any day

Output impedance: 200 Ohms Vs 100 Ohms. 1 Point to the 1072.
HDCD: 1 Point to the 1072 (not that HDCDs are terribly common).
18-bit DAC vs. 16-bit DAC: 1 Point to the 1072.

If you like, in 2 or 3 weeks, I'll do an A/B/C comparison of the 855, the 945 and the 1072. It'd be using the RC-1070, the RB-1080 and my Focal JM Lab Cobalt 826S's.

-Ben

[Adz]

In case any Oppo owners are interested, there is a guy who modifies the Oppo DVD player. Kris Deering tested his modded machine against the stock machine and found significant enhancement in picture quality and a some noticeable improvement in sonic quality. $400 for the mod. http://www.boldercables.com/servlet/Detail?no=265

[DrJRapp]

Tiato

Since you seem to be so intent in proving me wrong with statistics only, not ever having actually even listened to the machine. I think we have another deskjocky critic here????...lol

I would like you to answer a few questions .....if you can.

One comment first, the Oppo specs you listed are the units overall digital audio specs, not it's 2 channel analog specs, which are not listed, I don't think the Oppo's designers ever really though someone would use their unit as a serious dedicated CD player. The true 2 channel analog specs should be available by contacting OppoDigital. You also deprived us of the fact that the Oppo specs are you offered up are listed as an indefinite number, (which means they are design criteria, not actual tests). You are trying to compare these to a definite number. DON'T! Subjectively, the unit performs much better than design specs alone would tell. Once again, the value of actually having touched and listened to the device before criticizing it rings very clear.

Questions:

What is the ultimate dynamic range capability of CD media? What does the recording industry use as an allowable dynamic range figure (before compression)? ie: does having 16 or even 100 times more dynamic range really matter after some point?

What are the age effects on noise in any piece of electronics? ie:Will a 10 y/o CD player be as quiet as a new one? Do electronics age like fine wine and improve over time, or do they "mellow" because resistor and capacitor values change and degrade performance?

What is the lowest S/N ratio & Dynamic Range in a CD player considered "audiophile" in the industry? Not by YOU , by the industry! What is considered "silent"?

Why do my Klipsch RF7s sound so much better than my step-son's Altec computer speakers even though on paper the Altec's have vastly superior specifications?...

[Yuri]

If your concern is analog 2 channel then we have to look at the fact that the Oppo uses the exact same Crystal Semicondutor 192/24 bit DACs as does the RDV 1060, so it should sound roughtly similar.
.........
The DACs in the Oppo basically are the same DACs that also appear in the RSP 1098 and 1068, so I can't imagine why someone with either of those components would use the analog 2 channel output of the Oppo anyway.

Jerry,
some time ago I did a lot of search figuring out the DACs on various equipment. So I have to say that all mentioned equipment has different DACs:
Oppo: CS4360
RDV-1060: CS4396
RSP-1068: AK4395
RSP-1098: CS43122
Just my two cents
P.S. Sorry for my bad English.

[Taito]

Jerry, Let's not let this get personal. I'm not intent on proving you wrong. And I'm not just some 'deskjockey critic'. Now I feel the need to justify my entire argument.

The reason that I originally replied to Bigburner was because I have experience with the RCD-855. I speculated (and freely admitted that it was speculation) that the RCD-855 would be better than the Oppo FOR CD & CD ONLY.

Have you ever listened to an RCD-855? If not, we're at two different ends of the same bridge.

In my first post, I said:

To be honest, I don't think that a player, such as the Oppo, which retails for approximatly $200 US (I think) and has heaps of features, will have a fantastic analogue audio stage. However, as stated above, I've never even seen an Oppo, let alone heard one. My comments regarding the Oppo are speculation.

To me, it doesn't seem like I'm taking a hardline, mud-slinging approach here.

At this point, your:

There are certain members of these forums who, due to their lack of knowledge of the real facts would incorrectly try to lead you to believe that the Oppo is somehow sub-standard due to it's low price and small size. Next time do you homework guys before shooting from the hip.

was pretty annoying, almost discrediting. And based on the facts? What facts have you put forward here?

That's why, in my response, (and Bigburner asked me what I could tell him based on spec.) I went to some lengths to show that the RCD-855 was likely superior (for CD only) than the Oppo.

I also said that I did not doubt the Oppo's performance when everything stayed digital.

Later, you said:

You also deprived us of the fact that the Oppo specs are you offered up are listed as an indefinite number, (which means they are design criteria, not actual tests).

Did I really deprive you of anything? Did I try to hide anything? No. I stated quite clearly that the Oppo specs came from this thread and that I hadn't looked them up elsewhere.

And "(which means they are a design criteria, not actual tests)". Does it REALLY mean that? Are you certain, or guessing? Because my interpretation is that those specs minimum performace characterisitcs that each player will have. ie. You may get one better, but you will not get one worse. Think about it.

Also:

One comment first, the Oppo specs you listed are the units overall digital audio specs, not it's 2 channel analog specs, which are not listed

If they are overall digital audio specs, not its 2 channel analog....

Why list SNR? Digital circuits will suffer from bit errors, but not noise. Why? A data signal is determined to be high if it is above a certain threshold and low if its below a certain threshold. This leads me to belive thay they are analogue specs. Have you actually checked this?

Also:

I don't think the Oppo's designers ever really though someone would use their unit as a serious dedicated CD player.

Good! Exactly! The analogue output stage is the only part of the Oppo that I EVER criticised. It seems that you agree with me.

FINALLY, answers to your questions:

1) The ultimate dynamic range of content on a CD can be calculated, based on the fact that the CD format uses 16 bits to describe each sample. Now, this leaves us (2^15)-1 units above 0 and 2^15 units below. 2^15=32768 (or 32767, depending whether you are positive or negative). That means that we can have 32767 discrete levels between 0 and maximum. Now, but this equates to about 45dB. (10*log(32767) = 45.15). I hadn't really stopped to think about it. That's actually a pretty interesting result (assuming that I'm correct).

2) What are the age effects on noise in any piece of electronics? The answer is not necessarily anything. I say this because a particular RCD-855 that I'm very familiar with is perfectly quiet. Maybe you should ask Bigburner and see if his is too. I never hinted or implyed that electronic components will improve with age. But they will not necessarily appreciably worse.

3) I don't know what the industry standard minimum acceptable SNR & Dynamic range for an 'audiophile product' is. How do you define 'audiophile product'? Every audio company will try to convince you that their's is an audiophile product.

4) Because altec computer speakers (while pretty good for what they are) are crap. Are the Altec's actually vastly superior on paper? Has every important measurement been included? What about frequency response, efficiency/sensitivity, THD, max SPL.... If the speakers were measured in the same lab, you and I both know that the results would show the Klipsch pair to be vastly superior.

So, in conclusion: We both seem to agree that the Oppo was not designed for use as a CD player (with no external DACs in use) -my argument from the start. I never criticised the Oppo's digital abilities. My point from the begining was that the RCD-855 is better at CD (internal DACs and analogue circuitry included) than the Oppo (same goes). Jerry, don't take a shot at me and I wont fire one back. Bigburner has received a couple opinions as answers to his question. Can't we all just play nicely together?

-Ben

[Nolan B]

I may get fried for this opinion, but I'm always surprised at how little value manufactures and consumers put on the actual look of components. I know that there is a good debate over the Oppo vs RDV 1060 etc..., regardless as to who is right I have to say that the Oppo looks cheap.

Personally I want to please my ears and eyes. I have a friend who has a whole B&O setup with the virticle CD player (BEO 9000), the oval DVD player beautiful speakers etc, while the sound quality may not be the absolut best, it is still pretty good and the looks/design of the equipment is jaw dropping.

Its funny that most people when buying things for their homes (i.e. appliances, cabinets, couches etc.) consider looks equally if not more to quality, but that all changes when it comes to home theater. Granted most people in this forum have good taste becuase the buy rotel and rotel is good looking equipment that sounds good.

Ever piece I buy for my HT has to look as good as it sounds, and I have made some decisions that may reduce sound/picture quality by 5-10%, but in exchange increase the quality in looks by 100%.


LOL after saying all of that and going back and forth between the Oppo and RDV 1060 I have decided to buy both, just to do a comparision for myself, and have the good looking RDV 1060 in my rack. If the Oppo sound and picture quality is miles better, well I guess I will just have to hide it in my B&O AV rack

sorry not sure if I really made a point here....

[gianni]

I may get fried for this opinion, but I'm always surprised at how little value manufactures and consumers put on the actual look of components. I know that there is a good debate over the Oppo vs RDV 1060 etc..., regardless as to who is right I have to say that the Oppo looks cheap.

Personally I want to please my ears and eyes. I have a friend who has a whole B&O setup with the virticle CD player (BEO 9000), the oval DVD player beautiful speakers etc, while the sound quality may not be the absolut best, it is still pretty good and the looks/design of the equipment is jaw dropping.

Its funny that most people when buying things for their homes (i.e. appliances, cabinets, couches etc.) consider looks equally if not more to quality, but that all changes when it comes to home theater. Granted most people in this forum have good taste becuase the buy rotel and rotel is good looking equipment that sounds good.

Ever piece I buy for my HT has to look as good as it sounds, and I have made some decisions that may reduce sound/picture quality by 5-10%, but in exchange increase the quality in looks by 100%.


LOL after saying all of that and going back and forth between the Oppo and RDV 1060 I have decided to buy both, just to do a comparision for myself, and have the good looking RDV 1060 in my rack. If the Oppo sound and picture quality is miles better, well I guess I will just have to hide it in my B&O AV rack

sorry not sure if I really made a point here....

I'm sure you are not the only one that feels that way. I for one, hate displaying ugly or cheap looking equipment. BTW, this is not aimed at the Oppo.

[Nolan B]

since we are comparing stats, lets compare the one you CAN do by looking.

[grit]

I may get fried for this opinion, but I'm always surprised at how little value manufactures and consumers put on the actual look of components. I know that there is a good debate over the Oppo vs RDV 1060 etc..., regardless as to who is right I have to say that the Oppo looks cheap.

Its funny that most people when buying things for their homes (i.e. appliances, cabinets, couches etc.) consider looks equally if not more to quality, but that all changes when it comes to home theater. Granted most people in this forum have good taste becuase the buy rotel and rotel is good looking equipment that sounds good.

Ever piece I buy for my HT has to look as good as it sounds, and I have made some decisions that may reduce sound/picture quality by 5-10%, but in exchange increase the quality in looks by 100%.

sorry not sure if I really made a point here....

I agree with you completely. I love the way my Rotel gear sounds, but I'da had a harder time justifying the purchase if I didn't enjoy the appearance of the equipment. The same can be said for my B&W speakers. Granted, everyone has different taste, and what is appealing to one person may not be to another. However, I don't think appearance of quality is as subjective. One may not like the appearance of Krell's equipment, but I doubt anyone will argue that it looks cheap.

[greenjudas]

Taito,I would be very interested if you could compare the 1072 to the 855.I have the RCD865 which is about the same vintage as the 855 but a little more expensive, and have often wondered how good it is.Bear in mind the 865 cost me $140AU as opposed to a used 1072 which might cost $700+.

[Taito]

Alright greenjudas, I'd be happy to. I'll also throw my RCD-945 (which I bought second hand before I got the RCD-1072 into the mix). I won't have time to do this though until after I finish exams for the year - Wednesday 16th.

-Ben

[DrJRapp]

Have you ever listened to an RCD-855? If not, we're at two different ends of the same bridge.

Yes, I owned one...but that was long time ago, and one of my ( former)employees has it now. (I tend to just give away a lot of stuff...like I just gave away my RMB 1075 to another employee... gave another employee a new RSX 1056 as a bonus....gives them a taste of the good stuff. I replaced the 855 with a DVD player, because I wasn't using that system for two channel audio anymore....just surround.

Good! Exactly! The analogue output stage is the only part of the Oppo that I EVER criticised. It seems that you agree with me.

After re-reading your tome, it IS clear that you were only criticising the analog stage, but you didn't shoot from the hip...you took out a cannon. All this with never having seen, yet alone heard an Oppo.


If you were a student in one of my classes, your answer's wouldn't earn you passing grades. You've done a pretty good job of convincing me that you are just a deskjocky critic.... lol. I'm not taking any shot's here...just making an observation. Your answers were all a pretty much a dance around the real facts.

Sorry if it seems I was taking shots at you. People who use specifications to critque an item without ever even having seen it really raise my eire. As you get older and more experienced, you will learn how twisted specificatiolns can really get at times. This is from someone who used to make a living ( or at least part of it) tearing apart specifications for the courts.

[DrJRapp]

since we are comparing stats, lets compare the one you CAN do by looking.

I wouldn't exactly call the Oppo ugly. It is small and unobtrusive and it uses the same shade of silver powder coating as Rotel does. It essentially can be made to dissapear on a rack. It's even smaller than the 1077.

I may be going blind, but all DVD players look (appearance) about the same to me in a darkened theater room!...lol

[Nolan B]

I wouldn't exactly call the Oppo ugly. It is small and unobtrusive and it uses the same shade of silver powder coating as Rotel does. It essentially can be made to dissapear on a rack. It's even smaller than the 1077.

I may be going blind, but all DVD players look (appearance) about the same to me in a darkened theater room!...lol

and what about when the lights go on? I guess if you have a HT room dedicated to just HT then it is less of an issue. If your components are in a high traffic area then it becomes more of an issue.

tell me...whats missing from it that makes it so much smaller and lighter then most other players?

[Taito]

Just as well I'm in other people's classes :P . Can you please indicate to me what these real facts that I've been dancing around are?

My intention to A/B/C the RCD-855, RCD-945 and RCD-1072 (when I could easily just look up the specs) should show that I am not just a 'deskjocky critic' (still don't see what's so funny about this term). I also spent a very long time auditioning components for my system - when I could have gone with the specs instead. It took me three or four months of careful listening just to select my speakers.

I did state that I was speculating as I had never heard the Oppo.

I took out my canon, because I felt the need to defend my position. Otherwise, it would have been a mere pistol .

Now, my position is that if a listening comparison is available, I will ALWAYS trust that over pure specs - especially considering that some companies specs can be somewhat embellished. However, not having the opportunity to have used both, if making a decision, I would rather fall back on the specs than nothing at all. Especially if they come from a company that is not known to stretch the truth too far.

I offered my opionion because of my experience with the RCD-855. If you had said that you used to own an 855 and, when used as a dedicated CD player (analogue out), the Oppo is better. That would have been enough for me. So, if you can say that (and be reasonably sure of it), please do so. If not, fine. I didn't advise that Bigburner shouldn't get the Oppo. I advised that regardless of any decision about the purchase of the Oppo, he should keep the RCD-855.

Bigburner, perhaps if you do get the Oppo, you can do a CD-playing comparison for us.

So Jerry, no hard feelings. But if we are talking about dancing around the facts:

If your concern is analog 2 channel then we have to look at the fact that the Oppo uses the exact same Crystal Semicondutor 192/24 bit DACs as does the RDV 1060, so it should sound roughtly similar.

Regardless of whether or not it is exactly the same DACs, calling me down for using specs to differentiate the Oppo and the RCD-855 smells a little hypocritical. There is SO much more to the analogue-outputted sound of a player than just the choice of DAC.

-Ben

P.S. purely out of curiosity, which classes do you teach?

[DrJRapp]

tell me...whats missing from it that makes it so much smaller and lighter then most other players?

It's got a state of the art switching power supply, therefor no massive transformers or capacitors. Other than that, just air.

[DrJRapp]

P.S. purely out of curiosity, which classes do you teach?

I've tought a whole variety of college level topics thru the years. From basic Mechanical and Electrical courses to Engineering Management and Ethics. Teaching is just a sideline that gives my life more purpose and meaning. I believe that knowledge is power and is meant to be shared.

[Taito]

Cheers. I had a feeling it was something along those lines.
-Ben

[bigburner]

If you like, in 2 or 3 weeks, I'll do an A/B/C comparison of the 855, the 945 and the 1072. It'd be using the RC-1070, the RB-1080 and my Focal JM Lab Cobalt 826S's. -Ben

That will be very interesting.

[bigburner]

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrJRapp
If your concern is analog 2 channel then we have to look at the fact that the Oppo uses the exact same Crystal Semicondutor 192/24 bit DACs as does the RDV 1060, so it should sound roughtly similar.
.........
The DACs in the Oppo basically are the same DACs that also appear in the RSP 1098 and 1068, so I can't imagine why someone with either of those components would use the analog 2 channel output of the Oppo anyway.

Jerry,
some time ago I did a lot of search figuring out the DACs on various equipment. So I have to say that all mentioned equipment has different DACs:
Oppo: CS4360
RDV-1060: CS4396
RSP-1068: AK4395
RSP-1098: CS43122
Just my two cents
P.S. Sorry for my bad English.

Well spotted Yuri.

[DrJRapp]

My orginal statement was correct, they are all basically the same DACs. All the "43" series are the same 24 bit core and should all sound "roughly similar"(I believe that's as definitive as I got).. The different models have different connections, sampling rates, system timing requirements, vintages, voltages, bias requirements, channel support, range, cost, etc. Some of the variations are the results of the individual OEM packaging requirements. Some just have a different number based on which plant produced it, or when it was produced and something called yeilds. i.e. a 43112 is a variant of the 4396 and a 4398 is an updated 4396 and can replace a 43112. Will there be some minor variations in sq?: absolutely, but at the end of the day a cs DAC will sound like a CS DAC and not a Burr Brown. That is the point I was making.

[VikingP]

If your concern is analog 2 channel then we have to look at the fact that the Oppo uses the exact same Crystal Semicondutor 192/24 bit DACs as does the RDV 1060, so it should sound roughtly similar.

I totally disagree with this statement. It does not necessarily mean that two CD or DVD players have the same DAC chip, regardless of the numbering "variations", that they will sound roughly similar. Many more things come into account, most important of all, layout design. Then there is also component selection, and the compromises agreed upon by the design team. All this also holds true for the player's analog stage, resulting in big differences among player that use the same DAC chip.


Just my 2¢.

Paul

[Nolan B]

I always like reviews by Audioholics and here is one on the Oppo. Its rates it as good for the money, but certainly not close to flagships.

http://www.audioholics.com/productreviews/avhardware/oppoDV971Hdvdplayer1.php

[DrJRapp]

Van

Too bad he didn't have time to talk about audio. IMHO, I think that there is some hypocrsy in that report that is based on latent disdain for inexpensive components. He says he wouldn't put the unit in a "Flagship" category, yet rates the pq as high or higher than some of the "Flagship" models Audoiholics has reviewed such as the Denon 3910, Denon 5900 (the 5910 beat it in pq, and holy cow...should it ever at $3500 vs $250), the $2200 Marantz DV9500 doesn't even come close. He then convieniently doesn't have time to rate the audio.....hummmmmm

I feel this way, anyone really concerned with two channel analog should be using a dedicated CD player anyway. At $200 (street) the Oppo certainly leaves room in the budget to buy one.

[Kevin D]

I think we all know that this thread is not going to turn back to Rotel. If anyone wishes to continue debating, please keep it to PM's.

If anyone has any specific questions for Rotel DVD players vs the Oppo, feel free to start a new thread.

Kevin D.