1077 New Rotel Digital Amp

[Feisal K]

I don't think nuForce is using Tripath

the new Marantz multichannel digital power amps may be using Tripath though but no confirmation of this

There's also Acoustic Reality's digital power amps which are using ICEpower

[DrJRapp]

Nuforce doesn't really tell anyone who they are using, but if one reads between the lines of the specifications it certainly sounds a lot like IcePower 100 watt analog controlled modules. That's what the 1077 is.

[dermie999]

Seems to me that Rotel are between a rock and a hard place. If they utilise existing technologies they get accused of copying. If they design it themselves then the price goes up even further and they get accused of ruthless profiteering.

I'll stick to my normal mode of purchase. If I like the sound and I can afford it I'll buy it safe in the knowledge that the Rotel brand to me has always represented quality (so far 6 Rotel pieces and not a scap of trouble with any of them) and willingly pay a premium for the brand.

For those who think Rotel are ruthless profit makers the simple solution is don't buy their gear.


Trevor

[DrJRapp]

For those who think Rotel are ruthless profit makers the simple solution is don't buy their gear.


Trevor

I'm glad someone finally said it!

[Taito]

Couldn't agree more!

[nyny]

Hey guys, I have my 804S hooked up to the Jeff Rowland Concerto Integrated and simply love the Jeff Rowland sound!! Clarity, quickness, and tight bass are some of the words I would use to describe it. The integrated amp uses B&O's ICEPower.

Although Rotel might have a different implementation from JRDG, I am sure the main underlying technology (ICEPower) should still perform pretty well. this is just my two cents.

*One side note, I did run into a snag with my Concerto Integrated. The unit would not output sound sometimes after only 3 months of ownership - not sure if it's the pre or the ICEPower amp that's defective. Jeff Rowland noted that he has not seen this problem with the Concerto Integrated yet and will be sending me a new unit shortly (kudos to JRDG's customer service).

[ProStereo]

I can't say I'm very fond of the Jeff Rowland digital amps, and they far over-charge for it for what it cost them to make, and far exceed what is fair price profits.

[DrJRapp]

I can't say I'm very fond of the Jeff Rowland digital amps, and they far over-charge for it for what it cost them to make, and far exceed what is fair price profits.

What is a fair profit? Who determines that?

It costs about 6K to manufacture an automobile that sells for 30K, yeilding a gross profit of 24K, the rest goes to run the company, advertise and do new product development. The dealers margin is 3K. It costs me $ 1.8 million to build a house that I sell for $2.0 mil yielding a gross profit ot $200K, the rest goes to run the company, pay real estate agents fees and advertise. These are big ticket items that yeild big ticket profits.

Now, lets take a 1077. The dealer pays Rotel about $1700 for it (including shipping etc) and if they were to sell it to you at $2250 (10% discount) then they would have made a whopping $550 to run their business and advertise.

[markmaple]

In case it hasn't been posted yet, Rotel now has on-line info on the RMB-1077.

http://www.rotel.com/products/specs/rmb1077.htm

[nyny]

I can't say I'm very fond of the Jeff Rowland digital amps, and they far over-charge for it for what it cost them to make, and far exceed what is fair price profits.

ProStereo, I guess different people have different taste in sound characteristic, which explains the number of equipment manufacturers out there. Personally, I really like JRDG's sound characteristics.

Regarding your point on over charging and fair profit, I really think one should consider more than the price alone. How many manufacturers out there are willing to send their customers a brand new replacement unit (without hassle) instead of just fixing the defective unit? I am more than willing to pay for this level of service.

Cheers,
Tony

[Andrew M Ward]

ProStereo, I guess different people have different taste in sound characteristic, which explains the number of equipment manufacturers out there. Personally, I really like JRDG's sound characteristics.

Regarding your point on over charging and fair profit, I really think one should consider more than the price alone. How many manufacturers out there are willing to send their customers a brand new replacement unit (without hassle) instead of just fixing the defective unit? I am more than willing to pay for this level of service.

Cheers,
Tony

I've had a few interactions with the Rowland amps and I really enjoyed the way they performed (or controlled the speaker) and sounded.

Nice ...

The interesting thing is this. The guy I was talking to thought that a pair of Jeff's mono's at under $7K was a total steal... He's a dealer in Florida and I think he sells a bunch and his clients are happy...

Just an observation...

[Feisal K]

one man's steal is another's daylight robbery *LOL*

[shadow]

My problem with the new Rotel is cost. I do not doubt it will be a good sounding amp, but the price is disappointing to me. As was mentioned earlier in this thread, part expense and weight should be much less with a digital amp than a analog unit of similar power and quality. Over the last thirty years or so, a pecking order developed in amp manufacturers. First you had McIntosh, later Krell, Mark Levinson, Rowland etc at the high end of price. Rotel carved a reputation for offering 90% plus of the performance of the big boys at a much lower price point, with ordinary cosmetics. The availability and cost of the new digital amp modules could have led to a paradigm shift in amp cost for high end customers. Rowland is not about to drop its prices by half or two thirds to pass on these savings to its customers, who have no problem paying what is asked. I hoped that Rotel would do this but it appears they are satisfied to keep their traditional position just below Krell and other high end (and high price) brands. With the availability of low cost digital modules that sound great without tweaking or additional circuitry and that any manufacturer can buy and put in a box, I expect other companies will come out with mutl channel amps retailing for around $1,000 or less in the next few months. I hoped Rotel would lead this revolution, but another company will take the lead. BTW, I agree with the position that a company can charge what the market will bear for its products. If you do not like the price, other products are available. It will be interesting to see this situation play out over the next few months.

[DrJRapp]

Steve

I think that Rotel has no desire to start competing in the low end segment of the market, and that's what it would be doing if they followed your wishes. I think they are choosing to leave that to the Denon's, Yamahas, Pioneers and panasonics of this world.

I think what is likely to happen is that we will see an even greater shrinking of the separates market. Digital technology will allow high powered receivers to be built that can perform on par with separates without the compromises for heat control, or bulk and weight that normally accompany units such as the 1067 or say a Denon 5805. Sansung is working on a 250wpc 7 channel one as we speak that could set the whole under 10K separates world on it's ear. I'm sure that all the manufacturers, including Rotel are following suit. They would be foolish not to.

Here is what I would love to see if any of the manufacturers out there are listening. Yo should build a high end front end and chassis that contains all the pre-pro functions and a robust power supply. This chassis would be designed to accept up to 10 plug in power modules of varing capacity from say 100 wpc to 300 wpc. This way if I want I ( or my dealer if I choose) can configure my system with three 300wpc modules (FL,FC,FR) and, for the side surrounds and back surrounds four 200wpc modules and 2 100wpc modules for Zone 2. Mix and match any combination as desired/required. All this needs to be done very high quality at reasonable cost.

Now that would be a very cool piece of gear

[shadow]

I bought my first Krell stereo system about ten years ago. At that time it was very difficult to get the kind of performance in amplification I desired without spending a lot of money. I had a pair of Apogee Caliper speakers then which stayed between two and four ohms. Most amps including a Adcom 555 and a Rotel which number I do not recall, would shut down at moderate volumes. The Krell just kept going playing as loud and as clear as I could ask. The preamp was similarly quiet and dynamic and build quality was as good as you get. None of my previous gear is around today, but I see todays digital amps having the potential to bring the best performance to the people who do not have five figures of income to devote to a home theater system. I love your idea regarding the amp modules in a "receiver", Jerry. This is the kind of thinking that could revolutionize the quality of sound we get in our home. Let Rotel know that the intellectual property for this idea is yours when the first units come on the market. :T

[Kobus]

Jerry,
It is a week now since yours was ordered. I/we can not wait, what is the latest on your 1077.

[DrJRapp]

Jerry,
It is a week now since yours was ordered. I/we can not wait, what is the latest on your 1077.

Just sitting and waiting hopeing to get the call soon to come pick it up!

[Andrew M Ward]

Steve

I think that Rotel has no desire to start competing in the low end segment of the market, and that's what it would be doing if they followed your wishes. I think they are choosing to leave that to the Denon's, Yamahas, Pioneers and panasonics of this world.

I think what is likely to happen is that we will see an even greater shrinking of the separates market. Digital technology will allow high powered receivers to be built that can perform on par with separates without the compromises for heat control, or bulk and weight that normally accompany units such as the 1067 or say a Denon 5805. Sansung is working on a 250wpc 7 channel one as we speak that could set the whole under 10K separates world on it's ear. I'm sure that all the manufacturers, including Rotel are following suit. They would be foolish not to.

Here is what I would love to see if any of the manufacturers out there are listening. Yo should build a high end front end and chassis that contains all the pre-pro functions and a robust power supply. This chassis would be designed to accept up to 10 plug in power modules of varing capacity from say 100 wpc to 300 wpc. This way if I want I ( or my dealer if I choose) can configure my system with three 300wpc modules (FL,FC,FR) and, for the side surrounds and back surrounds four 200wpc modules and 2 100wpc modules for Zone 2. Mix and match any combination as desired/required. All this needs to be done very high quality at reasonable cost.

Now that would be a very cool piece of gear

Once again, rock solid Doc!
I agree with your perspective completely. That's still an engineering feat, even though it does fall in line with the general direction as percieved by the ICEpower modual-ization theory.

the future's so bright...

[Feisal K]

not sure what the rules are about mentioning other brands, but...

.
.
This chassis would be designed to accept up to 10 plug in power modules of varing capacity from say 100 wpc to 300 wpc.
.
.
.

something like the Flying Moles Cascade Series, or PSAudio's GCMC?

on the GCMC

* 6 models to choose from
* Can be configured in 5 or 7 channel
* Choose any wattage for any channel
* Independent power supplies
* No heat
* XLR or RCA input
* Gain matched regardless of power

[DrJRapp]

something like the Flying Moles Cascade Series, or PSAudio's GCMC?

That's a PART of my concept. I've seen them before. Add to them the Emotiva that is shipped to you in modules for your own assembly. The other part of my concept, perhaps the most important part (at least where it differs the most from the ones mentioned) is the Pre-pro front end already packaged on the Chassis. This would allow you to have either a receiver that you configure yourself (as I stated above) or a separate pre-pro to use with external amps.

[Feisal K]

has it arrived yet? We can't wait for your impressions

[bigburner]

No pressure Jerry.

[DrJRapp]

No pressure Jerry.

Lol. I don't feel much pressure. I probably won't even start to bug my dealer till next week. Although Rotel started to accept orders, that doesn't mean they are shipping yet. I haven't heard of anyone else getting one yet!

[EAmin]

Do you guys expect there will be more bottom end on this amp and the 1091 and 1092? I don't know if that is something ICE is known for. But then again, Rotel is modding the ICE from what I understand. ??? I would really like to hear deeper bass in these new amps.

[Kobus]

What are these 1091, 1092, are they the new 500w versions, if so, when are they due?

[DrJRapp]

Do you guys expect there will be more bottom end on this amp and the 1091 and 1092? I don't know if that is something ICE is known for. But then again, Rotel is modding the ICE from what I understand. ??? I would really like to hear deeper bass in these new amps.

The only thing I've heard about so far is that the 1077 is supposed to sound different that other Rotel amps. I'm not real sure how that is going to play out with me since I LIKE the way my current Rotel amps sound.

[Indytown]

The only thing I've heard about so far is that the 1077 is supposed to sound different that other Rotel amps. I'm not real sure how that is going to play out with me since I LIKE the way my current Rotel amps sound.

Jerry,

I saw the three units yesterday at the CEDIA show. Good looking pieces of equipment, low profile, have some weight to them, finish is very good.

[Aussie Geoff]

Jerry,

The only thing I've heard about so far is that the 1077 is supposed to sound different that other Rotel amps. I'm not real sure how that is going to play out with me since I LIKE the way my current Rotel amps sound.

If they sound "different" like the ICEpower amplifiers I have heard - it will be "Different Good "

Geoff

[yfei]

I went to a local hometheaterstore in dallas today. They already have RB 1077 for sale. I listened to it in the demo room, driving Dynaudio speakers. The sound is as I expected, clean and fast. I asked about 2 channel versions, the sales man said he have no idea when it will be released, and how much it will be.
He give me a brocher of Rotel RKB amps, he think they are also digital amps using the same tech as 1077. And they are a lot cheaper, RKB 2100 is 100Wx2 for only $800.
Anyone have speculations on RKB amps?

[bullitt731]

So is the 1077 priced of $2,500 MSRP correct as reported earlier in the beginning of this thread?

Ed

[yfei]

Yes, the dealer told me the price is $2500. I didn't do any further price negotiation, because I am more interested in higher powered 2 channel versions to drive B&W N803.

The dealer suggest me to bridge 2 or 3 channels. But I dought if 1077 allows briding, and the dealer can't answer this.
Manual is here:

http://www.rotel.com/support/pdfs/manuals/rmb1077-ml-aug05.pdf

Anyone knows?

So is the 1077 priced of $2,500 MSRP correct as reported earlier in the beginning of this thread?

Ed

[Kevin D]

The RKB amps are not digital amps. They are no frills powerhouses designed for multiroom and custom intallations. They even have a rackmount fan system to keep them cool.

Kevin D.

[DrJRapp]

I just read the manual off the link above. This is probably the subject for another thread somewhere else, but what I found most interesting was Rotel's veiled suggestion that higher quality speaker wire can lead to improved performance.

"Use insulated two-conductor stranded wire to
connect the RMB-1077 to the speakers. The
size and quality of the wire can have an audible
effect on the performance of the system.
Standard speaker wire will work, but can result
in lower output or diminished bass response,
particularly over longer distances. In general,
heavier wire will improve the sound. For best
performance, you may want to consider special
high-quality speaker cables. Your authorized
Rotel dealer can help in the selection of appropriate
cables for your system."

[srb]

Jerry,

That sounds familiar.

Actually, that is Rotel's standard speaker cable recommendation for all of their amplifiers. My RB-1080 manual contains the exact same paragraph.

[DrJRapp]

Shows my ignorance for never having read a Rotel manual before!

[Kobus]

200w into 4 Ohms

I notice in the attached specs that the amps output into 4 Ohms doubles to 200w. This is supposed to be very good ?, especially for more difficult to drive speakers. (or am I missing something)

What else can you guys read into the specs that us novices might not know?

[Stevebez]

Yup power goes to 200w but at 3x the harmonic distortion ... (0.09%). Not ideal - but you are right it demonstrates there is some reserve for driving difficult loads.

Rgds steve.

[shadow]

Don't see how a .09 THD could be even marginally audible, esp at a 200 watt output! Actually, a multichannel amp that can double power into four ohms is incredibly rare. I can only think of a handful that can do this and that is at prices exceeding $4K.

[yfei]

Rotel replied my email about the concerns of using 1077 to drive b&w 800 series:

"
You can not bridge the 1077 but you could bi-amp the speakers which would give you more power to the overall speaker. I have not personally connected the 1077 to any nautilus 800 series speakers but I have heard it on the
800D speakers and it sounded incredible so I think that you should be fine.
The best thing to do would be to either demo the 1077 on your speakers or hold off for awhile until we release the RB-1092 digital amp, 500 watts x 2, which should be released first quarter in 2006.

Best Regards,
...........
Technical Support
B&W/Rotel
"

[Pwoida]

Here in Australia you could buy a RMB-1075(5x120W) and a RB-1070(2x130W) for less than a single RMB-1077. So you get more power for less. I understand the space, heat and power consumption advantages of the RMB-1077 but it just doesn't seem like the best offering from Rotel. Is it being marketed as better quality than Rotel's existing amplifiers? I would have expected a digital amp to be cheaper than the analogue ones but not as good a quality but it appears Rotel is claiming the opposite?

[Aussie Geoff]

Pwoida,

From the digital amps I have heard (including ICEpower based ones similar to the Rotel unit) I would be extremely surprised if most people didn't find the sound quality of the new RMB-1077 a significant step up from the existing RMB-1075 and RB-1070...

I think you will find it is a whole different league up in quality and capability to drive difficult speaker loads. Tighter deeper bass and a whole layer more transparent midrange is what I fully expect tofind, as well as a much faster, more dynamic sound. Many of us Rotel lovers are likely to put our linear beasts on the market and buy the RMB-1077 or the new RB-1091 and RB-1092)....

However, time will tell, and everyone's needs and personal listening preferences are different. I expect we will get some people that love it and others that want to stick to the sound they know...

Geoff

[shadow]

Its amazing how expectations of audio components almost always lead to conclusions that mirror them! I for one am skeptical of the quantitative difference between this amp and its analog brothers. I do not believe at this point that this technology is so obviously superior when compared to analog amps which have been improved incrementally for fifty years. I well remember the hype for CD over records twenty years ago, which was less than what was claimed. I suspect any diffferences will be subtle, but am willing to give it a fair trial. This is a great example of why blind testing makes sense in the real world, unless you love spending more money.

[thefleu]

I must admit that it is difficult for me to understand why it seems so obvious that digital amps are superior to the "old fashion". Then again I'm not as expert as you guys are, in fact I'm just a newby :-)
If one of you have some explanation to share that would help me a lot ...

[Indytown]

I must admit that it is difficult for me to understand why it seems so obvious that digital amps are superior to the "old fashion". Then again I'm not as expert as you guys are, in fact I'm just a newby :-)
If one of you have some explanation to share that would help me a lot ...

I have read some older speaker reviews on Stereophile.com, if you go on their site and click on full-range speakers; and scroll down to B&W Signature 800, I think maybe 2002-2003 year, Kal one of their reviewers used a Bel Canto Evo amp to drive the 800 Sig's very well; the closest competition was the Classe CAM350 and it won him over by a small margin.

This technology has been around for a while.

[Feisal K]

... I do not believe at this point that this technology is so obviously superior when compared to analog amps which have been improved incrementally for fifty years.

while your comparison between CD and vinyl is valid, i'd like to propose another perspective:

the abacus has been around for hundreds (thousands?) of years, and is still good in the right hands, yet everyone today uses personal computers - which only existed in any form in the early 80s; efficiency, portability ease of use all in its favour plus continuing development from now on will be digital.


If you have a fairly sensitive pair of speakers (90db/w/m and above?) it's not that expensive an experiment - buy a US$30 Sonic Impact T-Amp. a less sensitive pair is still ok as long as you don't expect it to go very loud - the T-Amp is only 6W into 8Ω

Then listen with an open mind. After you make allowances for the crappy construction and connectors let us know what digital technology can achieve for a mere $30