1077 New Rotel Digital Amp

[Feisal K]

lvhung, what dya mean?

[Mark1Ace1]

I think he means that having a digi amp is just a fashion statement...Much like when you wear addidas instead of dunlop lol

Mark

[Feisal K]

LOL ok, a high performancerice ratio never goes out of fashion

[DrJRapp]

Far from it. I think we are seeing the beginning of the next generation of multi-channel amps. Ten years from now regular "analog" amps will be as boutique as tube amps are today.

[maddog]

LOL ok, a high performancerice ratio never goes out of fashion

7 x 100W : $2500 - That doesn't sound like an impressive performance : price ratio to me. When the $250 Panasonic first came out, everyone got all excited because they thought they would be able to spend a few hundred dollars for a (digital) amp that could drive just about any speaker. People were talking about how in the future the speaker would be the only really expesive component of an audio system. Leave it to the boutique audio shops to put that fantasy in the gound. Quite frankly, at these prices, I don't get why everyone is all excited about this.

[DrJRapp]

Here is what I'm excited about in terms of price-performance. For 100 watts Bel Canto Evos run in at around $600 per channel and Nuforce 8's at $800. The 1077 is $360 a channel, so if it's performance is anywhere near the ballpark of the other two it's a bargain. From everything I've read that even though it's rated at only 100wpc it has the depth and drive of a 1095 which is $400 per channel.

Perhaps it's not as much of a bargain as a Panasonic receiver, but I'm looking forward to much better build and performance than my XR25 Panasonic receiver.

[shadow]

Maddog hit it on the head. This is a typical example of boutique manufacturers sticking it to the consumer. There is no reason to charge what they do for this amp other than keeping up dealer's profits. Two and one half times what the 1075 sells for for the same power??? Look at AV 123, they have a small digital mono amp going for less than $150 (cannot remember the exact price) This amp will be on the market later this year and will be a lot less expensive than Rotel. Since AV123 does not have to keep a dealer chain fat and happy, the price savings will go to the customer.

[DrJRapp]

Maddog hit it on the head. This is a typical example of boutique manufacturers sticking it to the consumer. There is no reason to charge what they do for this amp other than keeping up dealer's profits.

There are several good reasons for them to charge what they are going to charge. First, this piece is an orginal, and I guarantee you that this little puppy cost a pretty penny to develop. Rotel takes their design and development seriously and hires some of the finest engineers and designers out there. This does not come cheap. AV123s electronics, on the other hand, specifically the Emotiva brand are variations on existing equipment designed by others (Outlaw& ATI & Sherwood) and shared by about seven other name brands. This means LOW development costs, it also means "ME TOO" performance.

Second of all, who ever said "profit" is a dirty word never lived on the other side of the equation, where slim or no profits held back new product development, new production facilities, etc etc. This has a snowball effect that can eventually lead to the demise of a company.

Thirdly, Rotel cannot offer the unit at $250 like Panasonic does with it's receivers because it doesn't have the economies of scale that Panasonic does. Rotel probably will sell 10- 20 thousand of these amps during it's product life, while Pannys receiver is in the millions.

[shadow]

This is an amp, not a Picasso. It amplifies a signal, it doesn't transmute lead to gold. The Rotel amp will either drop drastically in price or it will die on the vine as other companies bring you the same performance for half the price. One of the enduring traits of Rotel was high value for the money. I do not see that with this new amp

[jim777]

One of the enduring traits of Rotel was high value for the money. I do not see that with this new amp

Did you hear it? Not to be rude, but can we just wait to hear it before judging its value.. :roll:

[Kobus]

As an "independant" I would say that if it comes close to the 1095 in performance then it is good value. As a normal 100 watt amp ??.

I still think they should have gone for a amp with output of +- 200w for the first one. If it was a performer at the price then all the above would have been null & void and their market would have been muchhh wider.

[gianni]

It is possible that after the initial releae, Rotel may lower the price. I believe they have done this in the past with other amps.

I'll wait and see what performance it offers prior to judging it. 2 and 5 channel versions would be nice too - and not the 500w ones they have announced.

Of course if sound quality is no better than say a 1075, then the only real advantage of the 1077 will be heat, efficiency and space. Time will tell.

[gd]

Did you hear it? Not to be rude, but can we just wait to hear it before judging its value.. :roll:

On the nose-y... jeez, let it get into the marketplace at least... the 1077 will live or die on its own merit... don't worry, we'll scrutinize the hell out of it.

Still, the promise -- from all manufacturers -- has always been lower cost for the digital amps... I know it will take a while, and I'm aware of the cost of R&D... but I was really looking for a $1500 price tag on this multichannel.

But if it's got it where it counts -- Sound Quality and ability to drive tough loads -- it will go on my short list... if it doesn't, I have no qualms about the size, heat, power consumption or appearance of a traditional amp.

I'm easy -- just tickle my ears.

[Andrew M Ward]

Die on the vine?

This is an amp, not a Picasso. It amplifies a signal, it doesn't transmute lead to gold. The Rotel amp will either drop drastically in price or it will die on the vine as other companies bring you the same performance for half the price. One of the enduring traits of Rotel was high value for the money. I do not see that with this new amp

Picasso's cost hundreds of millions... so that's a silly comparrison... and when $2500 for a seven channel amp seems expensive pick another hobby.

sorry, but your perspective seems really lame to me. I mean, really. One can get a DVD player for $39.00 and a reciever for $129.00 and seven speakers and a sub woofer for $249.00...

if I send you all that stuff, do you promise to go away?
:W

just me 2 cents

[Mark1Ace1]

Everyone seems to be closing the gate on this one and the horse has not even bolted yet!!!!

Mark

[Aussie Geoff]

Hi,

Firstly - let's not make this personal - no one is forcing people to buy this amplifier. It will be a case of listen and decide (as with any other medium to high end component..._

And everyone I have spoken to who has heard one of these raves about the sound quality, especially the detail in the midrange and the quality in the bass...

So we can listen and decide is it is value or not...

That aside - I see this as one of the first few hi fi manufacturers to make the transition to switching amps in the main stream. Like any pioneering product there is a price... I remember the even earlier digital amps from companies like Sharp that had really high prices ($15,000 for their SM-SX100) ... Then we have had manufacturers like Bel Canto bringing the price down... Now Halcro and Rotel... Each generation brings the price down (sometimes) further refines the quality... I'm sure with the passage of time as this technology becomes more mainstream it will be even more affordable....

Lastly we should bear in mind the likely US RRP of the RMB-1077's "big bothers" the RB-1092 where the same $2,500 will get you a dual mono 500W digital amp, good for 1000W into 4 ohms.... Now that's value

Geoff

[DrJRapp]

One of the enduring traits of Rotel was high value for the money. I do not see that with this new amp

Everyone said similar things about the RSP 1098 when it was introduced at twice the price of Rotel's then only processor the RSP 1066. Once word got out on it's performance, that all changed. Now it is considered one of the industry's best values.

Interesting that you take pot-shots at Rotel while you own B&K????

[Taito]

Personally, I can't see Rotel abandoning their performance to price ratio that they have maintained for so long. One of the things that I like about my system is that I know that I would have to spend a lot more to significantly better it.

I say congratulations to Rotel for trying a new technology. Whether or not this amp lives up to its hype, we can be confident that Rotel is not likely to become one of those companies that sits by the way-side and feeds off past glory.

A lot of my friends can't see spending 7-8K on a stereo when you can buy a 'decent' one for a few hundred, yet I consider my equipment to represent good value because of the hours of enjoyment that it brings me. If the 1077 happens to have performance similar to amps that cost twice as much (and we're not just talking power here), then it represents good value. Whether or not a given person is able to afford it is another issue entirely. This is an expensive hobby. Just because something is out of the price range of some people (i'm in that group ATM), does NOT mean that it is not good value. It is simply in another league.

[Mark_C.]

My local dealer has the digital amps on order, only there is no delivery date as yet (at least not one that he wishes to share).

I did get the latest literature hot off the presses. Let's hope this info stays on the board.

[Taito]

The only thing that worries me about the spec. is the realatively low input impedance of 8.3 K Ohms. This is some 4X lower than that for the 1075. However, if it is a problem, a decent buffer should correct it.

[maddog]

7 x 100W : $2500 - That doesn't sound like an impressive performance : price ratio to me. When the $250 Panasonic first came out, everyone got all excited because they thought they would be able to spend a few hundred dollars for a (digital) amp that could drive just about any speaker. People were talking about how in the future the speaker would be the only really expesive component of an audio system. Leave it to the boutique audio shops to put that fantasy in the gound. Quite frankly, at these prices, I don't get why everyone is all excited about this.

Just for clarification, my remarks are about the boutique audio shops in general, not just Rotel. I use the Rotel 1077 as an example because that is what people are writing about in this thread.

$2500 for 7 x 100 W may be inexpensive for, e.g., Krell; but Rotel is not Krell. When determining value, you must compare with other Rotel amps. $2500 for 7 x 100 W is $3.57 / Watt. Compare that to the RMB 1075 @ $1.67 / Watt, the RMB 1095 @ $2.00 / Watt, and the RB 1090 @ $2.63 / Watt, and you'll see that it's no real bargain.

Even if it does sound terrific, my point is that it does not live up to the hype that digital amps are the dawn of a new era of flat out cheap amps that can drive just about any speaker with great sound quality. Just do a search on the internet and you will find pleanty of threads where people were all excited about this, especially from about 2 years ago when the $250 Panasonic first came out. You can even find early reviews where the reviewers talk about the speaker being the only real expensive part of an audio setup in this new age of digital amps. But so far, it appears that the boutique audio shops will have none of that. They are setting prices comparable to their existing analog amps, regardless of how much it costs to make them. In fact, I'll bet that the cost of engineering and production has little to do with the asking prices of their digital amps. I'll bet they are asking whatever they think they can get for them. As far as lowering the price after the initial R&D is recouped, I wouldn't bet on that. How often does that happen in the world of mid and hi-fi audio equipment. If the market will support $2500 for the 1077, why would they lower prices? The only way prices will go down is if the market will not support them. We'll just have to wait and see how that one pans out...

Anyway, although I am dissapointed (but not surprised) that the new digital amps from the boutique audio shops are not living up to their promise of a new age with respect to prices, I do hope the Rotel 1077 sounds terrific and I do look forward to Jerry's review of it. :T

- maddog

[gianni]

One thing does strike me: In the little literature Rotel has released on the 1077, nowhere do they mention that it offers increased sound quality over the current amps. They always emphasize low heat, high efficiency, and small size.

I guess it's possible that they do not want to hurt sales of the existing models, but it does make me wonder.

[DrJRapp]

My local dealer has the digital amps on order, only there is no delivery date as yet (at least not one that he wishes to share).

I did get the latest literature hot off the presses. Let's hope this info stays on the board.

Where did you get that, Id like a ledgible copy.

[DrJRapp]

Here is a humerous parody of something I read over at AVS forum:

“Say Adam, I just traded in my $2000, 80+ pound RB1080 and RMB 1075 for a 17 pound, 3" high amp that cost me only $250 and sounds like a $6000 Krell. Would you like to come over and listen to it?”

“No Jerry, it’s OK, I have to cut my cats nails right now and then my wife and I are going on 2 year world tour so you don’t need to try calling me again. Ever.”

[Mark_C.]

Where did you get that, Id like a ledgible copy.

Sorry for the quality, but they're photocopies of documents faxed to my dealer from Rotel. I think this info is going out right now to all Rotel dealers.

If you have a specific question, ask via PM.

Mark

[w6000]

I think alot of people in this thread are trying to equate power with the price of the amp. In my experience the two have nothing to do with each other.

[calmac]

I think alot of people in this thread are trying to equate power with the price of the amp. In my experience the two have nothing to do with each other.

I just wish Rotel would get the product onto the market and stop all this specualtion.I would also like to know when the video scaler/switcher will be available.
Gordon :Z

[Mark1Ace1]

As far as I know, well heard from the Rep in Europe via email, the scaler won't be out until later this year or early next.

Looking forward to hearing the amp too...

Mark

[maddog]

Here is a humerous parody of something I read over at AVS forum:

“Say Adam, I just traded in my $2000, 80+ pound RB1080 and RMB 1075 for a 17 pound, 3" high amp that cost me only $250 and sounds like a $6000 Krell. Would you like to come over and listen to it?”

“No Jerry, it’s OK, I have to cut my cats nails right now and then my wife and I are going on 2 year world tour so you don’t need to try calling me again. Ever.”

Thank you for agreeing with me that the expectation of cost benefits from digital amps from boutique audio shops is really just fantasy.

[DrJRapp]

Thank you for agreeing with me that the expectation of cost benefits from digital amps from boutique audio shops is really just fantasy.

I don't think that's what it said.

[chrispy35]

There are several good reasons for them to charge what they are going to charge. First, this piece is an orginal, and I guarantee you that this little puppy cost a pretty penny to develop. Rotel takes their design and development seriously and hires some of the finest engineers and designers out there. This does not come cheap. AV123s electronics, on the other hand, specifically the Emotiva brand are variations on existing equipment designed by others (Outlaw& ATI & Sherwood) and shared by about seven other name brands. This means LOW development costs, it also means "ME TOO" performance.

Isn't the RMB-1077 is a variation of existing amp technology? i.e. B&O ICEpower (http://www.icepower.bang-olufsen.com/sw1273.asp). Sounds like 'me too' to me.

[jim777]

Isn't the RMB-1077 is a variation of existing amp technology? i.e. B&O ICEpower (http://www.icepower.bang-olufsen.com/sw1273.asp). Sounds like 'me too' to me.

So what? All amps are made from existing technology. Sound Quality will depend on the many implementation/component choices, not only on technology. You can take existing class-A "technology" and make a superb amp or a piece of s***. ME-too technology doesn't mean ME-too sound or performance.

So lets don't get caught in the marketing stuff and just go and listen to it for ourselfs

Anyway, whatever happens, I'm keeping my little Mac :lol:

[DrJRapp]

Isn't the RMB-1077 is a variation of existing amp technology? i.e. B&O ICEpower (http://www.icepower.bang-olufsen.com/sw1273.asp). Sounds like 'me too' to me.

You are 100% right, so it's me too technology with the likes of Jeff Rowland, NuForce, B&W, Acoustic Reality and let's not forget such cheap junk as Samsungs $6000 digital receiver. Me too technology isn't the same as a me too design like Emotiva.

[chrispy35]

Just trying to point out that the RMB-1077 is using borrowed technology/circuitry. Is it really fair to say that it's in a different league than the other amps mentioned in Jerry's post based on this alone? I agree that borrowed technology can be tweaked to improve performance or save cost but the previous post implied (to me anyway) that Rotel had designed their digital amps from the ground up.

That leads us to the follow on question:

Does anyone know if Rotel has just repackaged existing PCBs or if they (or B&O) have actually redesigned circuits specifically for Rotel's needs? If redesign has taken place, to what extent?

[DrJRapp]

Honestly, I don't think Rotel is "borrowing" the technology. They are probably paying thru the nose for it. Perhaps that's one reason the cost is "relatively speaking" somewhat higher than Rotel amps that were designed 10 or 15 years ago. I'm sure a lot of the resultant SQ will come from those supporting bits and pieces that Rotel choses to surround the IcePower chips with. Based on the amount of time it took to bring this puppy to market from it's original announcement, I have to believe that this just isn't a Plug n Play deal of repackaged existing stuff.

[shadow]

I guess we will need to hear the final product to make a final decision, but I remain skeptical. Digital amp technology was promised to bring high quality and high power at a low price, with small size and no heat issues. I suspect that the early adopters of this amp will find that equal performance at a much lower price will come soon from other sources. I still want to hear it though.

[jim777]

Digital amp technology was promised to bring high quality and high power at a low price, with small size and no heat issues.

I guess that it will be like with oil; on second thought, some gready people will prefer to keep the extra money for themselfs :rofl:

[DrJRapp]

My dealer informed me that as of yesterday Rotel started to accept orders for silver units. Blacks will be here in 5 weeks. Mine was the first to be ordered from my dealer so I expect to see it soon.

[jim777]

My dealer informed me that as of yesterday Rotel started to accept orders for silver units. Blacks will be here in 5 weeks. Mine was the first to be ordered from my dealer so I expect to see it soon.

Did you listen to it before ordering it?

Keep us updated !

[DrJRapp]

Did you listen to it before ordering it?

Keep us updated !

No, why? What do you think my chances are of listening to it with my speakers in a room with acoustics like mine. It's a crap shoot either way.

Besides, I like being a pioneer.

[Andrew M Ward]

I guess we will need to hear the final product to make a final decision, but I remain skeptical. Digital amp technology was promised to bring high quality and high power at a low price, with small size and no heat issues. I suspect that the early adopters of this amp will find that equal performance at a much lower price will come soon from other sources. I still want to hear it though.

Early adopter?

Early adopters were buying digital amps 3 years ago... Would you consider a plasma TV buyer today to be an early adopter?

[RebelMan]

Man Andrew you're tough. :lol: I think he meant early adopters of the RMB-1077.

[twitchie]

Oh man, I'm not feelin the lov around here anymore. Last I checked, this was still Club Rotel and not AVS :P

DrJRapp, congratulations on the new addition and let us know how you like it

[Andrew M Ward]

Oops..

Man Andrew you're tough. :lol: I think he meant early adopters of the RMB-1077.

I think we both said what we meant... No harm intended.

The ICEpower Module in conjunction with the Rotel analog front and back ends becomes an RMB1077 and is basically many patented implementations of a switched class D amplifier stage with proprietary error correction and a chain of complex power conversion elements. The heart of the technology is a combination of two new principles named Controlled Oscillation Modulation (COM) and Multivariable Enhanced Cascade Control (MECC). Together, the COM and the MECC form the intelligent power processing “brain” of the technology.

Suffice to know ICEpower has subsequently matured the original class D module technology to the point of audiophile grade applications when combined with Rotel superior analog front-end signal handling and a fantastically clean and smooth Rotel high-power analog output section.

We do what we do well, they do what they do well, everybody wins...

That has been no small task – but it’s not “new” technology nor is really that revolutionary - it’s just the process of development.

Jeff Rowland has been selling digital power amps for years http://www.jeffrowland.com/M501.htm


Just my 2 cents

[voxy]

some reviews on other digital amps:

http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/nuforce/ref8.html

http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/sonicimpact/t.html

http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/belcanto2i/belcanto2i.html

Nuforce & Sonic impact.... they use Tripath Class T

http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/h2o/m250.html

H20 on ICE Power

http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue17/flyingmoledadm100.htm

flying mole

I would say most of these are not cheap. They cost typically from $500 and above, except the Sonic Impact at $39. :W

Even though Rotel is using so call ICEpower, there is alot of factors that will affect the sonic performance of the amp. However I do feel that the 2.5k asking price for 7 X 100 is fairly ex.