1077 New Rotel Digital Amp

[gianni]

Rotel's offerings are rather curious with what appear to be big holes in the line.

The choices are
7x100 or 2X500 and 500w monoblocks.

You would think that if Rotel feels the technology is clearly superior, they would also offer some 100-200w stereo amps. It seems however they are focusing on bringing to market models which would be huge power users in a linear amp. It is as if they were saying: "the current models are perfectly adequate for low to mid powered stereo amps".

Looks like I will be looking elsewhere for my next stereo amp if these new switching amps prove to be a step up in performance. Their lack of info alone on this subject is geting to the point of driving me to another brand. I have for some time been a real Rotel fan, but with all the QC issues on top of their poor communication via their website, I'm really beginning to wonder. I think Rotel needs to eat some crow for a while.

[mjb]

Rotel's offerings are rather curious with what appear to be big holes in the line.

The choices are
7x100 or 2X500 and 500w monoblocks.

You would think that if Rotel feels the technology is clearly superior, they would also offer some 100-200w stereo amps. It seems however they are focusing on bringing to market models which would be huge power users in a linear amp. It is as if they were saying: "the current models are perfectly adequate for low to mid powered stereo amps".

Like everyone else, I'm waiting for the first listening tests, but you raise a very valid point. Class D, unless Rotel are really on to something special with their design, is for producing a lot of power (for poor loads) with very high efficiency - read 'automotive power amps'. It looks good on paper, but is not really audiophile. Maybe I'm wrong, but no 5x200 is a big omission and maybe even an admission that Class D is some how a compromise.

[jim777]

One thing is for sure, Class D won't have the same "problems" as AB. I would take care with the first listening tests because most people are "trained" to hear typical class-AB distorsion but not many people what to listen for in a class D amp. I'm sure that most people will bring their typical "test" CDs and listen for the same problems that they heard on so many class AB amps, like lack of bass. At first shot, the class-D might sound pretty good it that arena. I'm going to be sticking with sensitive speakers and a hot and heavy McIntosh for a long while (well, not that hot..).

Is class D more for 7 channel cinema use than for audiophile stereo... that's the question

[gianni]

Is class D more for 7 channel cinema use than for audiophile stereo... that's the question

Agreed!

[shadow]

[QUOTE=Feisal K]

If you have a fairly sensitive pair of speakers (90db/w/m and above?) it's not that expensive an experiment - buy a US$30 Sonic Impact T-Amp. a less sensitive pair is still ok as long as you don't expect it to go very loud - the T-Amp is only 6W into 8?

This quote tends to raise the paradox I and others noted earlier. If this technology is so great and so inexpensive, how do you go from $30 for a small amp to $2500 for a 7 channel moderately powered amp? I hope this is audio nirvana but I suspect when the dust settles the 1095 will still be the king of the hill for multichannel Rotel

[Andrew M Ward]

Like everyone else, I'm waiting for the first listening tests, but you raise a very valid point. Class D, unless Rotel are really on to something special with their design, is for producing a lot of power (for poor loads) with very high efficiency - read 'automotive power amps'. It looks good on paper, but is not really audiophile. Maybe I'm wrong, but no 5x200 is a big omission and maybe even an admission that Class D is some how a compromise.

Wow!
Automotive power amps? (Step away from the Crack pipe)

First of all, Yes there is something very special about the Rotel design, it's been in development for years, this did not happen over-night. Yes it looks good on paper and it sounds awesome. There are no omissions or secret motives. See below:

A) Seven channel is the future (Period)
B) This 100 watt design is a true double down (watt doubler) design and will drive virtually any speaker hooked up to it, I personally heard it power a pair of KRELL LAT-1 (Okee-Dokee) and it didn't even hick-up it kicked serious rear-end.
C) Tell Jeff Rowland that his Class D amplifiers aren't high-end and you'll get a 40 page dissertation on how wrong you are and how un-informed you are...
D) Lastly - Quit guessing - just go listen to one, they're amazing.

Just my 2 cents
Andrew M Ward

[soundhound]

Whoa, I am not a moderator Andrew, and I can appreciate the fact you appear to be well informed, but as an ocassional crack smoker I take offense to the way you began you're post.

[Andrew M Ward]

Whoa, I am not a moderator Andrew, and I can appreciate the fact you appear to be well informed, but as an ocassional crack smoker I take offense to the way you began you're post.

:rofl: I crack myself up... (get it)

I wouldn't take me too seriously (if I were you) :W

[Kevin D]

It took a few readings, but I can see Andrew's humor in his post. All this stress is probably coming from a 5 page thread debating the qualities of an amp very few people have heard..

As far as the car stereo comment, I've been out of the loop on that for a while. Last I knew, the 'high current' amplifiers were the same Class AB amps but with reduced rail voltages allowing it to run higher wattages into a lower ohm load. This is where you get people in the 50 watts class (rated at 4 ohms) running 12 10" subs at .25 ohms..

When I got out of it, Class D amps were coming into to play which performed the same as 'high current' amps but with less heat and space. These did kill sound quality, but generally only at higher frequencies. These new amps we're discussing are a modified Class D (Class T, I think) that doesn't suffer from the same flaws as pure class D.

So honestly the car stereo comment really does have no bearing.

Kevin D.

[Feisal K]

when I first mentioned ICEpower, my friend thought ICE = In Car Entertainment (which is also quite commonly used)

.. i'd be hard pressed to say that nuForce, TacT Millennium, Halcro, H2O Audio, Jeff Rowland and bel Canto aren't high-end, and by the sound of it, Flying Moles are too if high-end does not always equate to high-price. cheapest High-end? RedWine Audio's Clari-T amp

[Indytown]

Wow!
Automotive power amps? (Step away from the Crack pipe)

First of all, Yes there is something very special about the Rotel design, it's been in development for years, this did not happen over-night. Yes it looks good on paper and it sounds awesome. There are no omissions or secret motives. See below:

A) Seven channel is the future (Period)
B) This 100 watt design is a true double down (watt doubler) design and will drive virtually any speaker hooked up to it, I personally heard it power a pair of KRELL LAT-1 (Okee-Dokee) and it didn't even hick-up it kicked serious rear-end.
C) Tell Jeff Rowland that his Class D amplifiers aren't high-end and you'll get a 40 page dissertation on how wrong you are and how un-informed you are...
D) Lastly - Quit guessing - just go listen to one, they're amazing.

Just my 2 cents
Andrew M Ward

It may sound awesome, but will have it have a sweet top end as a Classe cam400 driving 800D's. It will be interesting to here the results.

[Andrew M Ward]

It may sound awesome, but will have it have a sweet top end as a Classe cam400 driving 800D's. It will be interesting to here the results.

No worries,
Totally different product for a totally different crowd ...

:P

[Aussie Geoff]

Andrew,

Now a few weeks ago you teased us all by starting this thread with rumours of what others had said about the RMB-1077 and then poromised to do a review in your own system at home (where you have some spectacular competition)... You then said you would be travelling for 3 weeks or so...

Well - are you back home this weekend and ready to do a objective review...

IMO this thread has enough theory - we need people who have listened to it... And who better than you

Geoff

[gianni]

Wow!
Automotive power amps? (Step away from the Crack pipe)

First of all, Yes there is something very special about the Rotel design, it's been in development for years, this did not happen over-night. Yes it looks good on paper and it sounds awesome. There are no omissions or secret motives. See below:

A) Seven channel is the future (Period)

B) This 100 watt design is a true double down (watt doubler) design and will drive virtually any speaker hooked up to it, I personally heard it power a pair of KRELL LAT-1 (Okee-Dokee) and it didn't even hick-up it kicked serious rear-end.


Just my 2 cents
Andrew M Ward

A) Seven channels may be your future but with people in smaller rooms it may not. (PERIOD) Don't be so sure of yourself as to what the future holds.

B) I've heard several quality amps sound great on KRELL LAT-1's. Yes, they were more powerful linear amps so this does suggest the 1077 will handle a pretty good load for it's 100w rating. But it does not speak in absolute terms as to it's sound quality with a given speaker. However, if it as good as you say, why would Rotel not make a 2 ch version. If the 1077 is so capable, then most of us won't need the 500w stereo or monoblocks but a 2ch 100w version would be appealing to many people. So yes, there is a gap in their new technology amps. Okee Dokee Andrew?

Besides, I'll bet most people using LAT-1's won't be using them in a 7 ch HT setup. If these amps are so good, does this mean Rotel is abandoning the 2 ch market?

[Aussie Geoff]

Okee-Dokee Guys

Let's just make sure we are nice to each other...

Period.. :W

PS - I suspect this is just Rotel's first foray into digital amps... From what I understand we can expect more models next year that will cover the 200W market... - but this is very much on the QT...

[Andrew M Ward]

A) Seven channels may be your future but with people in smaller rooms it may not. (PERIOD) Don't be so sure of yourself as to what the future holds.

B) I've heard several quality amps sound great on KRELL LAT-1's. Yes, they were more powerful linear amps so this does suggest the 1077 will handle a pretty good load for it's 100w rating. But it does not speak in absolute terms as to it's sound quality with a given speaker. However, if it as good as you say, why would Rotel not make a 2 ch version. If the 1077 is so capable, then most of us won't need the 500w stereo or monoblocks but a 2ch 100w version would be appealing to many people. So yes, there is a gap in their new technology amps. Okee Dokee Andrew?

Besides, I'll bet most people using LAT-1's won't be using them in a 7 ch HT setup. If these amps are so good, does this mean Rotel is abandoning the 2 ch market?

Fair enough:
Rotel already has a few 5 channels amps, this was an opportunity to make a 7 channel product (to compliment our 7 channel processors) and introduce a new technology at the same time that showed a small footprint and super-high output. Simple solution, no grand conspiracy behind the decision, in fact it seemed only logical.

What makes anybody think Rotel won't be making 2 channel Class D amplifiers in a variety of sizes?



Nobody has said, "Here these three amplifiers are" now we're not ever going to make anything else. The logic goes something like this: The 380 watt monster is being phased out, thus some powerful amps needed to be put forth as replacements. So a mono 500 and dual mono 500 are on the way. More applied logic, no big conspiracy.

That’s it, that's all there is to it, no more no less.

[Andrew M Ward]

You got me - I owe you one..

Andrew,

Now a few weeks ago you teased us all by starting this thread with rumours of what others had said about the RMB-1077 and then poromised to do a review in your own system at home (where you have some spectacular competition)... You then said you would be travelling for 3 weeks or so...

Well - are you back home this weekend and ready to do a objective review...

IMO this thread has enough theory - we need people who have listened to it... And who better than you

Geoff

True statements above...
I would rather Doc J.R. do a review, I might not be as objective.

Last night I set-up the Classe' SSP-600 the CDP-300 and will be plugging the RMB1077 into that set-up tonight... and Gin and Tonic too...

[RebelMan]

True statements above...
I would rather Doc J.R. do a review, I might not be as objective.

Last night I set-up the Classe' SSP-600 the CDP-300 and will be plugging the RMB1077 into that set-up tonight... and Gin and Tonic too...

A variety (consensus) of opinions would be helpful! By the way, could you elaborate on what you meant by... "Totally different product for a totally different crowd ..." regarding the Classe amplifier(s) with respect to the Rotel RMB-1077?

[Andrew M Ward]

A variety (consensus) of opinions would be helpful! By the way, could you elaborate on what you meant by... "Totally different product for a totally different crowd ..." regarding the Classe amplifier(s) with respect to the Rotel RMB-1077?

Sure!
A guy (like me for example) who would spend $8,000 for a pair of mono-block Classe' amplifiers is a firm believer in traditional - Big Torroid - Big Cap - fully Balanced board - kind of guy.
It's also likely that that same guy isn't going to own a dozen different Amplifiers and a half dozen preamplifiers, swapping out gear in stacks every other day in his living room. Basically he's committed to the audiophile tradition of Huge Amps and high-end sources; pick one use it for a decade and upgrade rarely.

The above cat is not going to purchase a $2500 class D amplifier to replace his Mark Levinson No.333 Monsters.

He might buy a pair of CAM-400's to replace his Levinson gear however.

The Rotel guy is a dollar versus performance guy. He'll give up that last 5% of performance because it costs too much to get it. That guy is also the target for a high performance Class D product. The performance per dollar ratio is perfect.

As a Classe’ guy (for example) you want that last 5% and aren’t as concerned about it costing more. So basically, you’ve got two different products for two different guys. So when INDYTOWN said “does it have the sweet top end, etc. etc.” Well, I happen to think the Classe’ CAM-400 is the best sounding amp at virtually any price, so I wasn’t going to disagree, but I can buy 3.5 RMB1077’s for $8K, basically over 21 channels versus two channels...same dollars...

I could go on and on, but I’m sure you get the idea...

Just my 2 cents.

[jim777]

Just my 2 cents.

I thought that it was "just your 8k$" :rofl:

[RebelMan]

Thanks Andrew, sounds like a reasonable hypothesis. Extending your hypothesis a little further, you quoted Jeff Rowland as saying... "a properly made digital amplifier will always out perform and toroidial and capacitor design." This left me with the impression that (properly made) digital amplifiers, like the RMB-1077, could deliver high-end performance virtually matching, say, a Classe like product. If it's possible, could it be then that a guy like you would only be interested in product like Classe just because it's a Classe product?

[Andrew M Ward]

Thanks Andrew, sounds like a reasonable hypothesis. Extending your hypothesis a little further, you quoted Jeff Rowland as saying... "a properly made digital amplifier will always out perform and toroidial and capacitor design." This left me with the impression that (properly made) digital amplifiers, like the RMB-1077, could deliver high-end performance virtually matching, say, a Classe like product. If it's possible, could it be then that a guy like you would only be interested in product like Classe just because it's a Classe product?

Well, Nice shot!
Because I might quote Jeff Rowland to make a point, that does not mean I agree with him completely 100%. (a discussion for later) He simply serves as an excellent example of a company working hard on the Class D engineering front...

I have Classe' power amplifiers and I have Rotel power amplifiers and I have Mark Levinson Power amplifiers, I have some Proceed Amplifiers I have some Linn power and the list goes on and on... so I serve as a bad example.

But Classe' Just because it's Classe'... Why you insolent little turd!
:W actually I can't blame you for saying that, were I you, I might feel compelled to make that point as well.

[RebelMan]

LOL :lol: Just trying to understand where your loyalties lie. Hey, if the RMB-1077 came (comes) close to highly respected and well regarded power amplifier like Classe' then that is saying a lot about Rotel without taking anything away from Classe'.

[Andrew M Ward]

LOL :lol: Just trying to understand where your loyalties lie. Hey, if the RMB-1077 came (comes) close to highly respected and well regarded power amplifier like Classe' then that is saying a lot about Rotel without taking anything away from Classe'.

I understand completely
And appreciate your observations and poignant breakdown of my feeble argument...




:W

[DrJRapp]

True statements above...
I would rather Doc J.R. do a review, I might not be as objective.

Then maybe you can pull some strings so that my dealer gets my unit already. They are Audio Command Systems, Boca Raton branch. I deal with Barry (Integrateme- here at the club).

[lvhung]

The question is :
The 1077 was lauched

will the 1095 be discontinued ?

[Andrew M Ward]

Then maybe you can pull some strings so that my dealer gets my unit already. They are Audio Command Systems, Boca Raton branch. I deal with Barry (Integrateme- here at the club).

Doc,
I'll see what's up with that.
(I chatted with Barry at CEDIA)

[Andrew M Ward]

The question is :
The 1077 was lauched

will the 1095 be discontinued ?

Not any time soon...

[kirkj]

I don't want to hijack the thread by posting about technical features, but..

Any word on future digital inputs like the TacT? Why go from digital to analog to digital? Why buy seven cables when one will do? Hoping, hoping, hoping....

- Kirk.

[Feisal K]

you want a receiver.

(like the panasonic XR series)

actually I don't think it (the analog signal) gets converted to digital at the amp, i.e not to PCM. not an electrical engineer but as far as i can understand it, the analog signal is used to modulate the PWM (does this help?)

[gianni]

you want a receiver.

(like the panasonic XR series)

actually I don't think it (the analog signal) gets converted to digital at the amp, i.e not to PCM. not an electrical engineer but as far as i can understand it, the analog signal is used to modulate the PWM (does this help?)

Interesting article yet another stressing the main advantage being efficiency along with the potential for better bass and adverse load capabilities. In practice, many that have heard them are claiming sound improvements as a benefit. As we've been saying for a while, we're just going to have to listen to them to know. And like many other things this may end up being somewhat system dependent. Even though the 1077 is not the configuration I'm likely to be looking for, enough waiting already. I'm eagerly anticipating the first 1077 reviews and even more so, a chance to hear it. The curiosity is killing me.

[Feisal K]

the Panny XR series is a cheap experiment (~$240), especially if your seller also provides a return policy...

I have a XR25, and I can tell you it's going to be awesome when Rotel does a similar receiver and they take care of the audiophile stuff that Panasonic doesn't (binding posts, beefy power supply, etc etc). It probably won't be as cheap as the Panasonic, but it's a delicious thought.

[DrJRapp]

The XR25 is excellent, even ignoring the price. I use it in a 5.1 system in my MBR. It replaced a DENON 3801 under a 46" RPTV because of it's size and cost. I now think it replaced the 3801 for SQ also.

On another note: I'm starting to get really tired of waiting for the 1077 to show up, it's been over six weeks since I ordered it and according to Andrew it was available then. I'm a patient person, but this is rediculous. My dealers rep isn't returning my calls; if I did that to a customer I'd be out of business in no-time flat. I'm beginning to think my dealer flubbed this deal and fogot to order it. That's happened before on the last order.

I really HATE the fact that Rotel doesn't allow mail order because their dealer organization stinks. Unfortunatly, the good ones, if there are such, are really few and far between. I think it's the one big weak link that keeps the product line from truely florishing.

I'm now thinking of cancelling that order and going Bel Canto or NuForce.

[Kevin D]

I'm starting to get really tired of waiting for the 1077 to show up. I'm thinking of cancelling that order and going NuForce.

Argh! Then this debate will take even longer to end!

Kevin D.

[gianni]

Argh! Then this debate will take even longer to end!

Kevin D.

I understand you gotta do what you gotta do. But I think I can safely say that I'm not the only one who would like to see you "hang in there".

I think this is almost as bad for us as it is for you. In any case good luck and please keep us posted -- regardless of what you buy.

[RebelMan]

I'm now thinking of cancelling that order and going Bel Canto or NuForce.

Egats, don't do it Jerry!!! I agree, there is a huge shortage of good Rotel dealers out there. I have been periodically in touch with mine regarding the 1077 and I really think it is a manufacturer hold up. Perhaps they are just ramping up production to keep the distribution pipelines at capacity when the product finally hits the showroom floor. Hang in there man. A lot of people are depending on you. :T

[kirkj]

you want a receiver.

(like the panasonic XR series)

actually I don't think it (the analog signal) gets converted to digital at the amp, i.e not to PCM. not an electrical engineer but as far as i can understand it, the analog signal is used to modulate the PWM (does this help?)

Thanks. The article helps. I came across this TI article regarding PCM to PWM conversion. Warning, it's quite technical.

- Kirk.

[IntegrateMe]

Jerry (and everyone else)-

I emailed you already, but it looks like you check here more often.
I would like to update you with the Rotel RMB-1077 order status.

Equity International, Rotel's parent, is represented in Florida by C&E Marketing in Miami. When we place orders they are faxed in to C&E, who in turn faxes it in to Rotel. We are direct dealers for Rotel, in that we do not pay a distributor 10% to acquire a product ( in the case of Sharp, Panasonic, etc...). However, Rotel deals with manufacturer's reps and not with individual accounts (at least in Florida). Consequently, C&E knows all about Rotel's product releases and advises us as to when things become available.

I placed Jerry's order the day after he asked me to (I emailed my purchaser on 8-12 at 2 in the afternoon). On 8-18 I received an email from my purchaser that C&E said that the order was returned because the item was not available yet.

On 8-29, I got an email from C&E that said that orders were now being accepted for the RMB-1077, so we refaxed the order on 8-30.

Last week I had my purchaser call and check, and C&E told her that the units would not be shipping until the end of the month. My rep confirmed this on Friday, and he said he would get back to me with an exact date.

Sorry I didnt call you back Jerry, but I was forced to put away my Sales hat and put on my Crestron hat this afternoon and I was without cell phone until 7:30.

I think the whole problem is that everyone thought these were going to be out sooner.
Does anyone actually have one?

Barry

[gianni]

I understand you gotta do what you gotta do. But I think I can safely say that I'm not the only one who would like to see you "hang in there".

I think this is almost as bad for us as it is for you. In any case good luck and please keep us posted -- regardless of what you buy.

This was supposed to be in reply to Jerry's post.

[bigburner]

I'm now thinking of cancelling that order and going Bel Canto or NuForce.

Such a disappointment for a girl!

[IntegrateMe]

Jerry's amp just got here 10 mintues ago.

They do exist!

[Feisal K]

OMG it's not just vaporware after all ;D

[Kobus]

This is unfolding like a tv series, an exciting one I must ad.

[gianni]

I've got butterflies :T

[Kevin D]

Jerry wanted everyone to know he's going to be out of town for the next two weeks and won't be able to pick it up until he returns..

Just joking!
hehe...