Problem with 1098 connected to Plasma

**Andrew Pratt** · 13 October 2003, 10:50 Monday

There was someone else reporting seeing lines on their display when sending video though the 1098 though they were using a projector. I think they tracked that down to the DVD player but I may remember incorrectly. Have you contacted Rotels tech support yet? They're very good at getting back to you and might have a solution to try.

**lcajiga** · 13 October 2003, 11:23 Monday

David, you said that you tried at your dealer, the same DVD player with a different TV bbut do not specify if it worked or not. I assume it worked and if that case, we may eliminate the DVD issue. You have done a great troubleshooting but may you please tell us how is your DISPLAY setup in the 1098? Do you have menu display in both TFT monitor and TV or just monitor? Do you have the PROGRESSIVE option set to YES? If that is the case, please try setting Progressive to NO and output only to monitor. If that solve the problem, then the new firmware that Rotel is developing will fix that issue.

Regards,
Luis

Regards,
Luis

http://www.luiscajiga.com/HT.htm

"It is not what you see and hear...it is how!"

**dwhite** · 13 October 2003, 12:06 Monday

Luis -- Thanks for your reply and good questions. It did work with a different monitor. I failed to mention that in my post. I have also tried every combination in the display set up, with no success.

Dave

**dwhite** · 13 October 2003, 12:09 Monday

Andrew -- I am also working this with Rotel support. They suggested that I try the various settings in the Display setup menu, which did not make a difference. I decided that it was time to broaden my efforts in hopes of finding someone who has wrestled with this or a similar problem. Thanks for your reply!

Dave

**skipm** · 13 October 2003, 13:20 Monday

Dave-

I have my 1098 connected to a Pioneer 433CMX plasma which I believe is the commerical version of the PRO800HD that you have. Right now I have it connected to video input 2 which is the component input. The only time I ever experienced wierd video was when I had PROGRESSIVE=YES and OSD OUTPUT=TFT + MONITOR. With PROGRESSIVE=NO and OSD OUTPUT=MONITOR I get perfect video.

Let me go back and re-read what you have already done. You have a lot information there and I don't want to tell you to do something you have already tried. I do have one question though, does your PRO800HD have a media box that you make your connections to?

-Skip

**dwhite** · 13 October 2003, 15:37 Monday

Skip -- thanks for your help. I have tried all the combinations of progressive and OSD settings in the Display setup. I can make the screen look even worse by changing those configuration settings, but no better.

The connections on the PRO800HD are directly to the back side of the monitor. There is not a separate box.

Thanks again,

Dave

**skipm** · 13 October 2003, 19:32 Monday

Dave-

I knew one the Pio plasmas had a media box but I couldn't remember which. Mine is exactly like yours except for the gloss black Elite bezel. I'm assuming you are also still using the 5002 card and not one of the Auora cards.

I took a look at your pictures and I would have bet money that you had some sort of power interference issue but you've done everything I would have done to rule it out. Those wavy lines look like 60 cycle power interference to me. The problem I had looked more like very brief static at scene changes.

What happens when your sources are connected via s-video into the 1098 and component out to the plasma? I'm assuming your cable box is connected via component into the 1098 and s-video into the Tivo. Then the Tivo is connected via s-video into the 1098. Do you see the lines when viewing video from the Tivo?

Also, how close is the 1075 to the 1098? And, did you try it with the 1075 completely out of the loop, i.e. unplugged?

-Skip

**rlin** · 13 October 2003, 19:50 Monday

Does the AC cable on your Pioneer Plasma have a 3 prong or a 2 prong plug? If it's a 3 prong plug have you considered make it a 2 prong?

Rob

**dwhite** · 13 October 2003, 21:41 Monday

Skip -

I'm not familiar with the cards you mention. Are these tweaks to the Pioneer? Where can I learn more about them. I have not tweaked the plasma in any way.

I agree that it looks like a power issue. I have no idea what to try next. The odd thing is that it definitely seems to be some interaction between the 1098 and the plasma. With the 1098 out of the loop, everything is great.

You are completely correct with your assumption about the Cable to TiVo to 1098 connection. The TiVo source (s-video) does not have the lines when displayed on the plasma through the 1098 component out connection.

The 1098 is on the top shelf of my audio rack. The 1075 is on the floor under the rack. The bottom of the 1098 is 28.5 inches above the top of the 1075.

I just tried it with the 1075's power unplugged and with the interconnects to it disconnected at the 1098. This made no difference.

Thanks for your input. Please let me know if you have any other ideas.

Dave

**dwhite** · 13 October 2003, 22:01 Monday

Rob -- The AC cable for the plasma has a 3 prong connector. I just tried plugging it into a 3-prong to 2-prong plug converter. The lines in the display did not disappear completely, but they are somewhat diminished.

I then tried this in combination with unplugging the 1075's power cable (Skip's suggestion). This had an additional effect: the diagnonal lines that I usually have disappeared. New diagonal lines appeared -- the new lines are at a different angle, are much lighter, and appear to move across the display at a much higher rate than the others. Curious.

You and Skip are definitely onto something. Can you make sense of what is happening? Do you have any other suggestions?

Thanks for your help.

Dave

**skipm** · 14 October 2003, 00:06 Tuesday

Dave-

Until we can think of something else for you to try I would head on over to http://www.avsforum.com and post your original message in the plasma forum. They have some very knowledgeable folks over there who may be able to help. You and I have very similiar equipment and mine works perfectly. Your 1098 firmware is actually newer than mine. My 1098 is 2" away from my plasma and my 1075 is only 4" away from my 1098. I have 4 sources connected via component and the 1098 is connected to the plasma thru video input 2 just like yours.

I still believe it is a power issue of some sort. Do you know whether or not your plasma and the 1098 are plugged into the same circuit? If they are, have you tried plugging them into different circuits? You may need to run an extension cord temporaryly to test this out but it's worth a shot. I have both of mine on the same circuit but I have them plugged into a APC UPS which also does a little power conditioning/filtering as well.

-Skip

**Stevebez** · 14 October 2003, 03:06 Tuesday

Seems to me your grounding line is picking up some interference which is exactly at the frequency the Plasma is scanning at. Have u checked for power line cables running anywere near the back of your plasma (even in the wall / wall cavity)? You can use one of those hand held detectors. Is your wall on which the plasma is attached dry wall boarding or is is brick & mortar? If the former it seems sonme power line interference is leaking through and causing disturbance with plasma. POwer line cleaner probably wont help as the interfernce is coming from a different source.

Did not manage to go through your list of trouble shooting ... but if u have not already done so try changing the plasma location as a test (i.e. away from a wall in middle of room.)

**ejfiii** · 14 October 2003, 07:41 Tuesday

Seems like a power issue to me too. If lifting the ground helped, even a little, then it seems you have a ground issue in the circuit you are using. not sure if a Richard Grey will help there. Also seems like an 'electricity leak issue' as the above poster pointed out. You might find the problem gone when moving the plasma off the wall. I have a hunch your video cables or power cables are receiving interference form an electrical line somewhere. I was told to always make sure you cross electrical lines at a 90 degree, perpindicular angle to eliminate any interference. Perhaps your component video cable in the wall is crossing a poorly shielded power line at an incorrect angle?

Let us know what happens after moving it off the wall and testing.

E. J.

My HT

**rlin** · 15 October 2003, 19:17 Wednesday

The reason I ask about 2 and 3 prong plug is because my thought is on some kind of interference / (ground loop?) analogous to hums in a subwoofer.

Try this: Radioshack sells a Fusion AV Component Video Cable that has a in-line Ferrite filter in each cable that may eliminate interferences

see this link
http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&category%5Fname=CT LG%5F003%5F010%5F003%5F003&product%5Fid=15%2D1072

Rob

**dwhite** · 15 October 2003, 22:11 Wednesday

Skip - thanks again for your help; it's really great to have discovered someone who has a very similar setup to mine. I checked out AVS Forum last night and will post this issue there this weekend. Excellent suggestion.

The plasma and the 1098 are definitely plugged into the same circuit. I will try plugging one of them into a different circuit this weekend.

I'm also considering tracking down an isolation transformer.

Thanks again,

Dave

**dwhite** · 15 October 2003, 22:18 Wednesday

Steve -- I'm in a temporary rental at the moment, waiting for a new house to be finished. I'm not sure what's in the wall, but I will check it out this weekend. Because I'm in temportary quarters, the plasma is on a stand on a table. The back of the plasma is 16 inches from the wall.

I am more and more convinced that this is a ground loop issue between the 1098 and the plasma. I'll try more troubleshooting this weekend and report on it here.

Thanks for your help and ideas.

Dave

**dwhite** · 15 October 2003, 22:23 Wednesday

Rob -- I'm thinking it's a ground loop issue too. I will check out the ferrite filtered cables. Good suggestion. Do you have any experience with isolation transformers?

BTW -- you had a video glitch with a 1098, right? I hope I haven't confused you with someone. Was it similar to this?

Thanks again,

Dave

**dwhite** · 15 October 2003, 22:35 Wednesday

I ended up doing a little troubleshooting tonight as a side effect of another test I was conducting. I was intrigued by the positive reviews on this forum about the VH Audio power cables, so I ordered two. They arrived at my office today and I spent a little time tonight doing some comparison listening.

I don't want to go off topic here and turn this into a review of the VH Audio power cables, but I am blown away by the difference they made in the size of my soundstage and reduction in noise floor. Awesome.

Now, back on topic: what I was not expecting was for the power cables to make a diffference in the video interference problem. I installed a Flavor 1 on my DVD player and a Flavor 3 on the 1098. The diagonal interference lines were dramatically reduced, but still visible. I'm thinking of ordering another two power cables: one for my amp and one for the plasma.

I think this is more evidence of a power problem -- ground loop or other interference. I suspect that the VH Audio cables have much better shielding than the factory power cables.

Dave

**rlin** · 15 October 2003, 22:58 Wednesday

Fascinating finding! I would not have thought that the power cable would make much difference but come to think of it, power cable is a common source of EM interferences. Keep us posted on your finding. However, I have to say that $70 for a short cable is quite expensive.... :cry:

In term of video artifacts yes I am one the first person (or beta-tester should I say?) that notice verticle moving lines in 480P signals from my progressive DVD player through the 1098 to my InFocus projector. However my problem is solved after I receive the 3rd unit of 1098. So far it has worked without any problem at all.

Ever since I got my 1098 I find it exquisitly sensitive to interferences coming from power disturbances. There were two or three thunderstorms and I distinctively remember a couple of times a flash of lightening outside of the house would confuse the 1098 to the point that I have to shut it off and turn it back on - even though the lights inside my house barely even flickered!! Since I also have a projector, I am afarid of power outage so I installed an uninterrupted power supply (a $70 Belkins UPS) ...Although the thunderstorm has not come back but I have not have to hard reset my 1098 yet...crossing my finger that the UPS is keeping things safe.

**skipm** · 15 October 2003, 23:39 Wednesday

Dave-

Thanx for the update. Sounds like we are getting closer to finding the source of the problem. I thought you might have a ground loop issue but typically when you have that you also hear some humming and you didn't mention hearing any. Also, ground loop issues are typically caused by your cable system and I recall you mentioning unplugging your cable box and still having the problem.

One other thing you could try is picking up a UPS from your local Circuit City. The original reason that I got one was I was having frequent power outages and was missing shows being recorded on my ReplayTV. I have all my equipment plugged into mine and I really do believe it cleans up the power a bit. They are relatively inexpensive and the reason I suggested Circuit City is because of their 30 day, no questions asked return policy if it doesn't work out.

Now, I may have to check into those power cables ...

Keep us posted,

-Skip

**dwhite** · 27 October 2003, 20:39 Monday

I've fallen behind on reporting my troubleshooting here. I've done some more testing and have found a temporary fix. I previously reported that the VH Audio power cables improved the problem noticeably. I recently tried eliminating the ground on the Pioneer power cable (by plugging it into a 3 to 2-prong adapter) -- in conjunction with the VH Audio power cables, this works.

The Pioneer power cable has a big plug on the male end that says "noise filter" on it. I was curious whether this had any positive or negative effect, so I tried another power cable (the factory cable from my DVD player). The lines were much worse without the "noise filter", even with the ground plug defeated.

I called a Pioneer service center and talked to a tech about this. He strongly advised against defeating the ground plug. He suggested that I try installing a grounding cable between the 1098 and the plasma. I tried the grounding cable and it made no difference. The tech seemed certain that this is a ground loop issue.

The other thing I have noticed from all of this experimentation is that the fewer components I have connected to the Rotel, the worse the lines in the display get.

Does anyone have any experience with isolation transformers?

Thanks,

Dave

**Glenn** · 27 October 2003, 23:08 Monday

Originally posted by dwhite

what I was not expecting was for the power cables to make a diffference in the video interference problem. I installed a Flavor 1 on my DVD player and a Flavor 3 on the 1098. The diagonal interference lines were dramatically reduced, but still visible.

dwhite

I am sifting through the VH Audio power cord site, trying to determine which cord is suited to which components. While I am certain you have researched this, I am curious of your above quote. You mentioned that you used a Flavor 3 for the 1098, and as a result, noticed a reduction in the interference.

Is the Flavor 3 the correct power cord for the 1098? I am not certain of the answer, so my comments may be of little value and may actually be incorrect. But, from the VH webiste it mentions that a Flavor 2 is suited for analogue components such as a pre-amp. Flavor 3 is for digital components.

Just making sure the correct power cord is being used, since the power cords made things so close to being right for you.

Would a Flavor 2 be more suited to the 1098, eventhough the 1098 only has a 2 pronged connection?

**dwhite** · 28 October 2003, 19:18 Tuesday

Glenn - good question. With all of the digital processing that happens in the 1098, I think of it as a digital component. I will email Chris VenHaus and ask him which cable he would recommend. I want to order one for my amp too.

Dave

**dwhite** · 28 October 2003, 19:20 Tuesday

It looks like I spoke too soon. The lines are back, even with the ground line on the plasma defeated.

They are subtle but clearly present.

Dave

**dwhite** · 28 October 2003, 21:42 Tuesday

Skip - I did finally post this problem over at AVS Forum. Thanks for the recommendation.

I continue to think that this problem is some sort of ground loop, but I do not have any humming. If it is a ground loop, it must be isolated to the video processing board in the Rotel -- does that make sense?

Thanks,

Dave

**dwhite** · 02 November 2003, 23:03 Sunday

I ran another troubleshooting experiment while Club Rotel was down. I borrowed yet another processor to try. This time, it wasn't a Rotel; it was a Lexicon MC-8. The Lexicon is more than a little out of my comfortable price range, but the real point of trying it was to see whether I would experience the same video problem as with the 1098.

I used the Lexicon for 3 days -- the lines on my plasma were completely absent the whole time. I also noticed that the picture quality overall is much better compared to the 1098 -- both from component sources and from s-video sources.

I think that this is pretty conclusive evidence that the problem here is the 1098. Rotel says that no other customers have experienced this problem, so the problem seems to be the 1098 in the specific context of my setup here. The difference in picture quality that I experienced with the Lexicon leads me to think that maybe Rotel hasn't done a great job with the video board in the 1098.

I should point out that the Lexicon does not do transoding like the 1098, so the component output only provides video signals from the component inputs, so watching an s-video source requires changing the input on the monitor. I really like the transcoding feature on the 1098, but I would give it up for the video quality of the Lexicon switching.

My current theory is that as the 1098 heats up, either an electronic component inside the 1098 begins to operate outside it's specified range by enough to cause the problem or something in the system slowly charges (like a capacitor) and then starts to leak noise into the video line. The real curiousity is why this only seems to happen in my particular setup. Rotel has at times pointed the finger at Pioneer, and has promised to check with Rotel dealers who are also Pioneer dealers to see whether they can find other examples of this. I haven't yet heard any results from their inquiry.

I've been searching for a solution for more than a month now and at this point, I'm beginning to think that I should return the Rotel and buy something else. The success with the Lexicon is tipping me further in that direction. However...

I was really focused on video quality for the 3 days that I had the Lexicon, but before returning it, I had to do some comparison listening: 1098 vs MC-8. The 1098 sounds better, hands down, no question. The MC-8 seems to add something to the audio (I listened to SACD and to DVD digital 5.1 source material) -- it sounded a bit muddy or muffled -- very different from the 1098.

Now the challenge is to either 1) figure out how to make the Rotel work or 2) find something else that sounds as good as the Rotel and does a better job with video. Have any 1098 owners done a comparison test against the Parasound Halo?

All suggestions for either approach are appreciated...

Thanks,

Dave

**skipm** · 03 November 2003, 16:41 Monday

Dave-

I went back and re-read all your posts to see if there might be anything we missed. The video section in the 1098 does indeed seem to be very sensitive to electrical current. I'm beginning to wonder if the lines you see on your plasma are being caused by the plasma or if they are the product of the interference that the 1098 is picking up from somewhere else. What I find ironic is that I have the commerical version of the very same plasma that you have and I have my 1098 sitting 3 inches away from it and I get crystal clear video from all my sources. Commerical equipment tends to have a lot less shielding for RF and other noise so it has a different FCC classification, Class A or Class B, I forget which is which.

Since you want to hang on to the 1098, and I don't blame you, I only have a few more suggestions. By the way, I enjoyed your 1098 vs. MC-8 comparison. Your outcome was the opposite of what I would have thought. I would have thought the 1098 to have a better video section and the Lexicon to have better audio. It's nice to know that the 1098 can go toe to toe with pre/pros costing twice as much and hold it's own or even get the better of them. I too looked at the Parasound C1 but it was more than I wanted to spend. Now for the suggestions ...

1. You say you are in temporary living quarters but you didn't say for how much longer. It also sounds like you have a reasonable dealer so is there a chance of hanging on to the 1098 until you move to see if you still have the problem?

2. The main difference I see in our setups is that I run everything through a APC UPS. Have you tried a UPS yet? I know you have the Richard Grey unit but I'm grasping at straws here. Might be worth a try before giving up on the 1098.

3. Since we established that you have a very reasonable dealer above, is there a chance that he would let you bring another 1098 home to try? The newer the better. I don't know how old your current one is or what version of firmware you are running but Rotel has tweaked the firmware every month since the 1098 has been available and most of the tweaks have involved the video section. A couple of fellow owners here have had their video problems fixed by getting units with newer firmware. It's a long shot but you never know.

4. I don't know how relevant it might be but take a look at the following. This guy was having a wierd power/ground loop issue with a 1066 that he was finally able to resolve. It might give you some ideas of additional things to try.
http://www.hometheaterspot.com/htsth...t=1#Post493310

That's about it. If I think of anything else I'll yet you know or if there is anything you want me to try with my setup just let me know.

Good luck,

-Skip

**dwhite** · 04 November 2003, 23:12 Tuesday

Skip,

Thanks so much for your continued help on this. I appreciate the time you've taken to read all my posts; I know that some of them were pretty long.

Did you audition the Parasound Halo C1 or C2? If so, what were your impressions?

Originally posted by skipm

1. You say you are in temporary living quarters but you didn't say for how much longer. It also sounds like you have a reasonable dealer so is there a chance of hanging on to the 1098 until you move to see if you still have the problem?

We'll probably be in the temporary quarters until April 04. I suspect that my dealer would make this kind of deal with me -- I have to say that I don't look forward to being without component video switching for all that time. It was the desire for component video switching that started all of this upgrade madness after I bought the plasma. It's definitely worth considering.

Originally posted by skipm

2. The main difference I see in our setups is that I run everything through a APC UPS. Have you tried a UPS yet? I know you have the Richard Grey unit but I'm grasping at straws here. Might be worth a try before giving up on the 1098.

Trying a UPS is not a bad idea, especially if I can return it. I'll look into that next week -- I'm pretty crazy with work until then.

Originally posted by skipm

3. Since we established that you have a very reasonable dealer above, is there a chance that he would let you bring another 1098 home to try? The newer the better. I don't know how old your current one is or what version of firmware you are running but Rotel has tweaked the firmware every month since the 1098 has been available and most of the tweaks have involved the video section. A couple of fellow owners here have had their video problems fixed by getting units with newer firmware. It's a long shot but you never know.

My dealer is awesome. He already offered another 1098. Since I've already tried three, I'm reluctant to try another, but maybe I should. I'd really like to know whether Rotel has made any changes to the video board since the 1098 was released.

I'm positive that my dealer would continue to provide replacement 1098's until Rotel put a halt to it. I have to say that I haven't been that satisfied with Rotel's response to all of this.

Originally posted by skipm

4. I don't know how relevant it might be but take a look at the following. This guy was having a wierd power/ground loop issue with a 1066 that he was finally able to resolve. It might give you some ideas of additional things to try.
http://www.hometheaterspot.com/htsth...t=1#Post493310

I read this thread -- interesting. It gave me some ideas for a few more troubleshooting experiments I could try.

Thanks again Skip!

Dave

**Azeke** · 05 November 2003, 13:47 Wednesday

Dwhite,

I seem to recall that a forum member was having problems with his RSP-1098 the same firmware version that you had. He exchanged is RSP-1098 thrice before the issue was recitfied, seems like it was related to the video board, however I am unsure of the specifics.

Hope this helps,

Azeke

Problem with 1098 connected to Plasma

Problem with 1098 connected to Plasma

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