Line conditioner?

[thyname]

Hi guys:

As I completed my stereo system I am looking to some upgrades. I first thought about replacing power cords, but I read it will not cause any difference in sound (though some argued in favor). I have seen online Rotel RLCs 1050 and 900 line conditioners and power sequencers. I currently use one of those supermarket Belkin SurgeMaster where all my equipment is plugged. Do you think that purchasing a Rotel line cond. and power sequencer would improve the sound of the system? I have no problems so far with any hissing or so, just trying to see if I can improve anything. Do you suggest any other similar product apart from Rotel? Only recently I heard about the importance of power supply to sound quality and would highly appreciate any input. My system is:

Rotel RX-1052 stereo receiver
Rotel RCD-1072 cd player
Axiom M60ti floor mains
SilverCats interconnects
SignalCable shotgun Bi-wire 10g speaker cable

[mourrri]

Hello Thyname,

Your power seems fine, so I'd start by trading in the RX-1052 for ROTEL separate components.

In regards to power chords, electrical components must go through a battery of rigorous testing and pass several government regulations/certifications to make sure the product operates as stated by the company and is safe to use. So, if the power cord wasn't of a sufficient gage then it would eventually heat up thus creating a possible safety hazard and not receive certification. I'm sure the engineers at Rotel thought about that one.

But you can always have a dedicated power circuit put in for your Stereo.

Speaking of RLC 1050 I'm also curious to hear user comments about this one.

Later...
Rick

[TunerX]

I contemplated this move as well... my dealer put it like this, if you want to hear a difference in your sound it will take at least 1500 bucks... until then he could recommend nothing more than a standard surge protector and a good home owners insurance policy 8O

[audiofan]

some of guys i know use Panamax 5300. They swear that the sound is cleaner even though they have to increase volume a bit to get the level they get used to. I personally never hear it as i plug my system directly to the wall outlet. If you search on the internet , you can find one for $300 .

[benny]

Probably won't take $1500 to make an audible improvement. Richard Gray units ($900-1200+) are known to improve sound and video on many types of systems. I'm very happy with my Brickwall ($270) 6 outlet suppressor/filter. Line conditioners are kinda like cables- everyone has an opinion and they can differ greatly. One thing that makes a lot of sense to most peolple though- Units that limit current of any kind can adversly affect components, especially amps. I may take the plunge soon and get a dedicated line run for my rack. There is never a debate that this will yield improvements.

[thyname]

Hello Thyname,

Your power seems fine, so I'd start by trading in the RX-1052 for ROTEL separate components.

Rick

Unfortunately, the dealer I purchased my RX-1052 did not accept trade-ins for Rotel equipment. I also called Rotel and they told me that I cannot add a power amp to my RX-1052 simply because it does not have inputs for a power amp.

[mourrri]

Thyname,

Since there are no pre-outs for... hmmm.... let's call it zone 1(the room the RX-1052 is setup in) you can always hookup an external amp to zone 2 and run the unit like it's feeding zone 2. That should work... unless you're already using zone 2.

Too bad your dealer doesn't allow trade ins... that really sucks.

Have you looked around for other Rotel dealers that do trade ins ?

In my case I've been doing business with my Ottawa Rotel dealer for over 6 years. Every year I trade something up .... and have always been satisfied with the trade up program.

good luck..

Rick

[thyname]

Thyname,

Since there are no pre-outs for... hmmm.... let's call it zone 1(the room the RX-1052 is setup in) you can always hookup an external amp to zone 2 and run the unit like it's feeding zone 2. That should work... unless you're already using zone 2.

Rick

That is what I thought too when I spoke with Rotel representative over the phone. However, after he went to have a look at an actual unit, told me that I cannot add any amp to my RX-1052. However, I think, I better sell my RX-1052 on audiogon or ebay, hoping to get at least usd 700 and then buy a RC-1070 for usd 500 (or less used). Of course, I have to purchase RB-1080 (or 1070) What to you think?

Too bad your dealer doesn't allow trade ins... that really sucks.

Have you looked around for other Rotel dealers that do trade ins ?

I talked to the second dealer in my area (there seems to be only two). They told me they don't do trade-ins but can purchase mine for 2/3 of the price, still have to confirm though.

[audiofan]

Thyname,
I have rc-1070 and rb-1080. The combo sounds very sweet. My current speaker is M60 , but i'm going to upgrade it to something else., probably Aperion, which will have a new full range speaker next month. I like Totem Forrest , but it's way out of my price range.

[ds22030]

Ive also thought about this recently and here is what I surmised:

1. the benifit of expensive line conditioners is directly correlated to the quality of power at the outlet...obviously,... the dirtier the power, the more benefit a line conditioner is going to have...so it begs the question, how good is the power at the outlet?

2. amps that draw significant current should be plugged directly into the wall so as to not suppress sound. People say that amps are built robust enough that they should be able to coast through minor surges of daily operation without any harm.

my 2 cents...based on what I read...

[thyname]

Ive also thought about this recently and here is what I surmised:

1. the benifit of expensive line conditioners is directly correlated to the quality of power at the outlet...obviously,... the dirtier the power, the more benefit a line conditioner is going to have...so it begs the question, how good is the power at the outlet?

I have no idea how good the power in my area. I live in a high rise apt. building. Is there any way to learn about the power in my area? Do you think that apart from better protection from power surges, a line conditioner will improve the quality of sound?

[TunerX]

Zone 2 only handles analog sources...

[thyname]

Zone 2 only handles analog sources...

What do you mean? Zone 2 cannot support a power amp? Please more details!!

[TunerX]

it handles amplifiers.. like i have mine running to a adcom amp powering back patio speakers.. but it will only send analog signals... so if you have a cd player with analog connections... it will play it.. if you have a dvd player with digital coax connection or optical it will not play it.

[thyname]

it handles amplifiers.. like i have mine running to a adcom amp powering back patio speakers.. but it will only send analog signals... so if you have a cd player with analog connections... it will play it.. if you have a dvd player with digital coax connection or optical it will not play it.

I have Rotel RCD-1072 cd player with analog connections. Do you have a RX-1052 as well?

[TunerX]

no i do not, just passing information along on zone 2 limitations.
I didnt want you to be let down by a WTF who the h$!! DoH!

i just upgraded to a RSP-1098.

[thyname]

I have researched this topic a lot and came to the conclusion:

Panamax 5300
Monster 3600

Any opinion on what is the difference, and what should I choose??

[mourrri]

Consider TrippLite products, you can get the same performance for less the cost of those two. Sure it's not as fancy looking but the performance is the same.

later...
Rick

[audiofan]

panamax 5300 is a good one. I heard it and it did improve the sound. Mind you that i don't know about the power condition at my friend's house, but when he switches between the power outlet and power conditioner, i can hear that power conditioner does reduce the noise. I'm going to order one soon.

[thyname]

panamax 5300 is a good one. I heard it and it did improve the sound. Mind you that i don't know about the power condition at my friend's house, but when he switches between the power outlet and power conditioner, i can hear that power conditioner does reduce the noise. I'm going to order one soon.

MSRP on this one is too high. Any opinion of those that sell on ebay??

[Slice]

I bought the Monster 2600, but don't like the layout on the back panel. The 2600's own power cord receptacle is on the opposite side of the panel from all the other receptacles, with the RJ-11 & BNC in/out in between. Makes isolating signal from power a pain.

Panamax has all receptacles grouped together, with signal on the opposite side. Plus they come with their own gooseneck light that plugs into the front panel. And some come with a separate silver front panel overlay in the box.

FWIW, there's a Panamax 5500 in "mint" condition for $500 on Audiogon.

[mikeyc]

not to muddy the waters but I went with a PS Audio UPC 200, its about $500, offers both audiophile grade power conditioning without being current limiting and is also a kicka** surge protector.

http://www.psaudio.com/products/upc200.asp

[thyname]

Anybody has any opinion on Belkin PureAV PF60 power console? or for its lesser value cousin PF40 for that matter? They look so cool, great specs and much cheaper than Monster.

[cuda65]

They do look nice. I just saw them at Best Buy. Didn't know they carried them. I have no idea how they are though.

[mikeyc]

here's a review on the Belkin unit

http://www.laaudiofile.com/belkinpf60.html

[thyname]

Thank you guys for the link and advise!! I went ahead and purchased Belkin PureAV pf60 for less than half of msrp @ an online store. They told me it is factory brand new and will ship direct from manufacturer.

[cuda65]

Let us know how it works out. Would like to hear if it works well.

[jim777]

Well I don't want to break the party but I bought a Monster HTS1000 MKII and it had a slightly negative effect on the sound (on the stereo image I would say). I kept it because at least I hope it will well protect my system, but I'm considering shortening the power-bar cable and plugging the amp directly into the wall. Ah, I also keep it because it has a slight advantage for my 400$ tv's image.

[TunerX]

A relative visited recently whom I had never met, he was telling me his experience working for intel and a another large chip corp. He is an electrical engineer, so i was talking to him about surge protection. He went on to tell me its not usually the spike that kills but the sag, and that these surge protectors cant protect from the sag. His only recommendation for protection was battery backup.

Your Thoughts?

[soundhound]

It would take a pretty sizable ups (battery backup) $$$$$$ to accomplish what you are thinking. Both spikes and their counterparts, sags can induce problems. Spikes can get into the line, sometimes make it through a power supply, and enter into the logic level where erronious symptoms occur. Sags on the other hand are hard on inductors, transformers.....As the voltage drops, current rises, HEAT gets generated. Unless your'e home has very old service, say 60 amp fused, you should maintain 112-125 volts, which will be fine. Most machines are speced @ 120 +/- 10% That allows 108 vac minimum (perferably not constant). If you are in a newer home, I would just purchase one of the previously mentioned filters/conditioners and not worry.

[csuzor]

I disagree, sorry soundhound, a UPS is not expensive, and power dips are very common. When a large air conditioner turns on (maybe even the neighbour's), or pool pump, or a whole bunch of other reasons related to supply of electricity, these cause dips, or even short blackouts. I have a small UPS designed for computer marlet, and I can live through a 3 minute blackout without stopping a movie, but even better, I often hear it click into action and off again after 1-3 seconds, indicating a temporary dip... but the audio just keeps going smooth.

My first recommendation, get a UPS.
Then, if you really must, get a line conditioner and put it after the UPS.

[soundhound]

No need to apolagize csuzor, just curious what the power rating of you're ups is, and which components you are running thru it. A small one capable of holding up a p.c will run you about $150 here. One capable of suppliying a couple of power amps, and all of the gadgets that most people have here will cost you. We just replaced one @ work on a server which had the batteries fail @ a cost of $4500, and it was really nothing special. Shoot, if they were that affordable, everyone here (myself included) would have one, line conditioners would not be spoken of, and alot of the poor voltage related topics would not be posted. Bob

[csuzor]

Actually soundhound I am no expert, I just know it works.

From the charts available on apc.com, I can predict how long my UPS can supply the power I need, so I just need an estimation of the power required.
The 1068 consumes 48W
The 1075 consumes up to 800W, but in reality this is with all channels at max... If the energy efficiency is 0.5, and my music is not too loud or not on all the time (like a movie), I guess 30W per speaker average / 0.5 efficiency, so 180W for 3 channels
The Denon 2200 consumes 27W

So you can see, total < 300W, even the most basic UPS from APC gives me 2-3 minutes battery life (@230V... you'll need to check @110V from apc.com). The Back-UPS RS models with 1000VA could power a sub and TV and satellite receiver as well, and still provide several minutes battery life. When the battery gets weak, they beep, and it's time to turn everything off. Until then, though, you're laughing.

I have several UPS at home for all sensitive gear, and none cost more than $200.

[soundhound]

Good timing, American Power Conversion (APC) announced today it is getting in on the HT craze, and has developed power conditioners for home theater enthusiasts. The model S10, $1299, and the S15, $1499 are now available to installers. Extra battery packs can be had for $499. There is a copy of the press release @ audioholics.com

[csuzor]

Yes, the new APC UPS S-series units look like serious gear for hi-fi, with

noise filtering banks, pure sine wave battery power, sequenced turn on/off functionality, inductor-less filtering for high current components, EMI/RFI noise filtering for digital devices, two analog, two video, and two high current (amplifier, subwoofer) filtered outlets

recommendable from the specs alone. Their catalog even has a picture side-by-side with a Rotel (1075 or 1080)

Note that they are 1kVA or 1.5kVA units, so the Back UPS RS series can also do the job, with less noise filtering and no additional battery available, for <$300 (but they dont look as good!)

noise filtering performance:
S series: Full time multi-pole noise filtering : 0.7% IEEE surge let-through
RS series: Full time multi-pole noise filtering : 5% IEEE surge let-through

[thyname]

My Belkin PureAV PF60 power console just arrived today. I got it from an online retailer, brand new for less than half MSRP of USD 749. It is their top of the line and I can tell you now, it has great looks. I plugged everything in (13 outlets). As for the performance, I can't say much, everything does as before (at least for the first hour or so I tried it). I can't seem to notice any improvements, neither I expected so. Just happy I put my last stone in the building of my stereo. I will post here again if I notice any development with my power conditioner in the next few days. Here is the link for what I purchased:

http://catalog.belkin.com/PureAV_detail.process?Product_Id=178925