Stereo Imaging

[lars]

Hello All,

I have trouble with the sound stage when I run 2 channel stereo (RDV1050 multi into an RSX-1067 into JM Labs Cobalt speakers). The music seems to generally come right from the speakers - not in between, no depth, etc.

I figure it to be one or more of:
1) My ears
2) The room (living room about 4x7 square meters/yards and wide rather than deep. Ceiling is about 2.5 meters/yards off the floor (mixed carpet/tile).
3) The components
4) The recordings (pretty much any CD that I try)
5) The interconnects (monster THX)
6) The speakers

I would appreciate your opinions on which of these I should concentrate on improving -

Thanks very much in advance,
Lars

[csuzor]

I was told on the B&W forum to remove any "toe-in" of the speakers, to set them almost parallel for 2channel music... I tried and was impressed with the increase in soundstage (though I prefer slightly more toe-in for multichannel).

Another thing I realised recently, I temporarily have different cables for different speakers (waiting for new cables), and the test-tone is quite different in colour between different cables (same speakers!). I imagine this will prevent a good soundstage.

Finally, raise the speakers above the floor with good spikes/stands.

Others will have good advice I am sure.
Christophe

[soundhound]

Placement of speakers in reference to you're listening position will have a huge impact on soundstage. Experiment b-4 dropping more $$ and you should find what you are after.

[eelco74]

I have got JMlab's electra 906 with the rsp1068 and RB981.
I have very little toe in for better imaging. Focal's inverse tweeter has a very wide image. Do not toe in too mutch.

I have auditioned both the Cobalt 816 and the electra 906. I had no problem with the soundstage of both speakers.

Interlinks can make a difference. I can tell you that I have found vdHul's D102 interconnects and vdHul Cs-122 speakercable a very fine match. You als might take a look at Catcable.

[ajpoe]

I have trouble with the sound stage when I run 2 channel stereo (RDV1050 multi into an RSX-1067 into JM Labs Cobalt speakers). The music seems to generally come right from the speakers - not in between, no depth, etc.

It might be something very simple, I'd check your wiring just to make sure you didn't accidently hook your speakers up out of phase...

[Andrew Pratt]

If I were a betting man I'd say #2 is your problem. In most installs the placement of the speakers will play a HUGE role in the sound you hear. The nice thing about that is that its normally cheap to rearrange gear a bit...but it can be expensive if you're limited by WAF or physical constraints etc. Still you might be surprised at how little it takes to really alter the sound.

[RobP]

Hello Lars, your most likely suspect is the placement of your speakers. Your listening position and your speaker locations should be close to creating a equilateral triangle. Although I find in my setup that I set about two feet behind this triangle, and it sounds great, a tiny amount of toe in is fine. Also if possible make sure that the speakers can interact with one another by pulling them out from any tv's or furniture that sit between them. It takes alot of tweaking sometimes to find that "sweet spot", I have had my B&W 803's for about a month now and still find myself making tiny adjustments on the position of them. :B

Robert P.

[Nick M]

My FL & FR speakers are about 9' apart and toed in close to 45* so they are on-axis with the sweet spot. I have perfect spot on imaging to the point where people think my center channel is on during stereo playback.

I'm pretty sure you want your speakers toed in so they are on axis with your seating position. This degree of toe in is dependant upon distance between the speakers and your distance back from the soundstage. As the distance between the speakers increases or your seating position gets closer, you will need to toe the speakers in more.

[lars]

Thank you all for your advice! Seems the general consensus is speaker position, so I'll play with that and see what happens -

- Lars

[benny]

you probably won't need the speakers toed in directly at you. the center image will be strong, but usually the width of the stage will shrink with too much toe in. good luck!

[mariachi]

It sounds to me like you have the speaker wire hooked up wrong on the left speaker, that is, out of phase. Either that, or there's something wrong w/the speaker. I don't think the amount of toe in would affect your stereo imaging that much as you describe it.

-Vic

[Nick M]

For perfect imaging you want to be directly on both horizontal and vertical axis' (have the speakers directly facing you and at the proper height). As you move the speakers apart (or move your seat closer to them) you have to toe them in further to maintain this alignment. This shrinks the sweetspot for other listeners in order to maintain perfect imaging for the money seat. For wide rooms your best bet is to sacrifice perfect imaging at the sweetspot for average/good imaging for more people.

[gianni]

Like others here have said: Placement, Placement, Placement!

Other than upgrading speakers, I have found placement to yield more positve results than anything else with the exception of the room and treatments. Search the web for speaker placement as there are many good articles on this topic. For starters try the Cardas Audio site and AudioRevolution. There are many techniques -- you just need to find the one that works for you. Once you have worked through this then try equipment upgrades.

[miket]

I have Linn Katans with 'wide dispersion tweeter' and have come to the conclusion that minimal toe-in is required maintaining wide sound stage with good imaging partially as a result of this. My sitting-speakers triangle is equilateral. Moving from the sweet spot still maintains decent imaging with the soundstage becoming distorted but enjoyable nonetheless. Toeing in the speakers can enhance but also reduce the size of the sweetspot.

Experiment with speaker position, sandfill stands, put towers on robust supports etc and you should be acheiveing near the best from your system.

bye ..... mike

[basementjack]

I'll add in here that the speakers interact with the room acoustics to create the effect we call imaging - if it didn't then listening through a good pair of headphones would produce an acceptible soundstage, which it doesn't....

There is too much to know about acoustics to discuss in a reply like this, however I would agree with others - Speaker Placement if your first priority - after that you can get an additional improvement with room treatments - as many users on this forum who've done so have reported improved imaging.

Lastly, just for fun, Try this out - I read a paper on this and it made perfect sense...
Rotate your speakers and listening position by 45 degrees



This will give a huge change to the imaging, has to do with the way the sounds from the left and right speakers reverberate around the room.

Even if it's not practical it's worth doing once to get an idea of what your speakers can image like

[csuzor]

Interesting suggestion basementjack.

I have played a lot with speaker placements, trying just about everything, and this configuration provide the best soundstage for me. Speaker layout is approx on a circle, all distances are very similar, 3.3m from the ideal listening position, the little circle.

Stereo is also better than against a back wall, but sacd 5.0 is the priority.

Still leaves room for surround back L/R later (7.0), but this surround speaker position was much more realistic than further back for 5.0 recordings.

Anyone else use such a corner config?

Christophe

[calgaryguy]

Lars...
You don't indicate the cd player you are using. I found that the entire synergy of the system dictates the overall sound. Compared to my Classe Audio equipment that I had previously, the Rotels sounded a bit on the brighter....more analytical side...The Classe's...more laid back. The cd player that I'm using, the ARCAM CD92, tends to be a warmer sounding player. The key to improve the imaging and coherence of my system was to change the interconnects I was using. Originally, I was using van den hul interconnects (tend to be a warmer sounding cable), and most recently, switched over to DNM Reson interconnects with Eichmann plugs. The transformation in the sound was amazing....clear, open...articulate.......and produced an amazing vocal presence between the two speakers. I suggest you look at the overall synergy of your system in addition to speaker placement..as others have suggested.....(and yes..interconnects do make a huge difference!)

Tony

[lars]

Hello All,

First, thank you all for your suggestions!

Second, I have tried positioning and it appears that for my situation minimal/no toe helps. I have not tried the corner room position yet, but will definately try it.

Tony, I use the Rotel 1050 DVD player as my CD player; monster interconnects at the moment, though they seem to be not too well thought of on this forum -

Once again, thank you everyone for your thoughts -

Lars

[calgaryguy]

Lars....
I don't know much about the Rotel 1050 DVD player unfortunately. The one thing that I do know is that there are very few DVD players that play CD's at an audiophile grade. Without getting ridiculously expensive, I know of two company's products that produce a great dvd player while also incorporating an exceptional CD playback...the ARCAM FMJ products as well as the Naim DVD's. I personally own the ARCAM FMJ DV27plus, and it's an awesome sounding CD machine. It almost matches my ARCAM CD92 in performance. As I was mentioning earlier though, interconnects do make a huge difference though. A warm sounding cable such as van den huls, or the Harmonic Technology truthlink, might be a good choice for your system, since I would imagine the Rotel DVD player might be a bit on the bright side. In the end, with an interconnect change, you might end up with a softer, rounder, or more relaxed sound, taking off the high frequency edge that might be apparent from the dvd player output. The imaging that you're looking for may not be accomplished from your current player. Prior to obtaining the ARCAM CD92, I had owned a Denon 1700 transport paired with a older model Meridian Delta Sigma 263 DAC converter. The switch over to the ARCAM player was NIGHT and DAY! It was the biggest single improvement/upgrade I have ever made; voice images were floating between the speakers...amazing transparency....and air. I have read reviews that Rotel makes some really sweet sounding stand alone cd players. That may be an option for you as well if it's in your budget.

Tony