Are Rotel Products HiFi?

[RebelMan]

I have come to believe that there are three major camps that all audio/video reproducing electronics can fit into. These are LoFi, MidFi and HiFi. Although, you usually won't see them broken down this way.

From my experience and from the feedback of this forum, I have come to consider Rotel a member of the HiFi camp. Maybe on the low side of HiFi but HiFi nonetheless. On a scale of 1 to 5 (LoFi to HiFi), where do you see Rotel?

Please consider how faithfully Rotel products reproduce audio/video, the quality of components used and overall construction, value (price/performance) and support when making a decision.

[DrBoom]

I've been through a range of equipment already, and I think I have a pretty good idea where Rotel fits in the picture.
I can only comment on their HT equipment, since I've never heard any of there stereo amps.
If the "hifi" level is the highest, that's where I would put the high-end brands like Parasound (Halo series), Meridian, TAG, Lexicon, Theta, Mark Levinson, Classé and all the others. (prices starting from around $5000)
The low-fi level would be populated with mass market receivers with a price tag of around $200 - $500, by big brands like Yamaha, Denon, Marantz, Sony, JVC, Kenwood, ...
Between these two extremes you'd find the higher priced mass-market receivers, also from the brands I just mentioned, price tags from $1000 to $2500.
I would position Rotel somewhere in the middle, so it would be around mid-fi for me.
It's better than most mass-market receivers and integrated HT amps, but it can't hold a candle against the highest level of hifi equipment.

[RebelMan]

DrBoom, I didn't want to restrict this to price alone. I believe that some products are priced exhorbitantly high because people associate high price with "it must be better". When in reallity they really aren't that much better. Many professional reviewers will often comment on how an inexpensive product can almost measure up to an expensive one. Take for instance a $699.00 Rotel DVD-A player vs a $5995.00 Meridian one. Yes, the Meridian is better but it took something like the Meridian to best it.

As a general rule, price alone can be used as barometer of things, but I wouldn't use it alone. If, however, this is how you see "HiFi", then by all means interpret it that way. It's your opinion I am interested in anyway!

[DrBoom]

Wow, I didn't mean to link price to performance at all and I think you kinda missed the point
I've owned the Parasound C2 for a while and now have the TAG McLaren AV32 to replace my RSP1098, and compared to those 2 I can safely say that Rotel isn't anywhere near the performance of either the TAG or Parasound.
That's what I based my opinion on, not the pricetag.
And yes, they are both more expensive, but in my opinion much more worth the asking price.
I feel Rotel has really blown it by making the 1068 almost identical to the 1098 (without the screen) and then charging half the price for it.

[RebelMan]

Wow, I didn't mean to link price to performance at all and I think you kinda missed the point
I've owned the Parasound C2 for a while and now have the TAG McLaren AV32 to replace my RSP1098, and compared to those 2 I can safely say that Rotel isn't anywhere near the performance of either the TAG or Parasound.

Understood.

That's what I based my opinion on, not the pricetag.
And yes, they are both more expensive, but in my opinion much more worth the asking price.

Price/Performance was one of the criteria to judge by.

I feel Rotel has really blown it by making the 1068 almost identical to the 1098 (without the screen) and then charging half the price for it.

Not understood. Should the 1068 have been more?

[junior77blue]

Or rather the 1098 should have been less...

[Dmantis]

Good topic by the way.....

I feel that Rotel is the best entry level seperates.Adcom, Outlaw, NAD hold no candle in my book. Then there's B&K which is like at the top of the entry level seperates, Rotel can hold a candle to them and with some speakers, I like the rotel better.

Mid fi hi fi or however you classify it, Rotel is enty level High end. Seprerates are the direction one goes into when wanting more then the average to some high end receivers. Most receivers don't sound all that good when playing music. They have all the features but sound quality seems to be last on there list.

Rotels receivers I also feel sound better then most other receivers. B&K's receivers Rotel has trouble with, but all the japanese receivers, Rotel holds the belt.

Rotel for the money is a super bang for the buck. Yoou need to spend alot more to gain more.

Dan

[dermie999]

Hi Fi, Mid Fi or Lo Fi does it really matter? If you like what you're hearing and you can afford it then does a name for your equipment change anything?


Trevor

[RebelMan]

Hi Fi, Mid Fi or Lo Fi does it really matter? If you like what you're hearing and you can afford it then does a name for your equipment change anything?


Trevor

You have a point. But look at it this way. How would you classify, say a Honda and a Lexus? Both manufacturers make fine cars. However, I think most people will agree that a Lexus is more comfortable than a Honda.

I think there is far less subjectivity with what we can feel than there is with what we can hear. I suspect most people would have a harder time making a similar distinction between say a Rotel and a Meridian.

[martino]

I feel Rotel is entry level Hi-Fi. Considering what the average person spends on a system Rotel is very expensive...as much as I wish I could afford Parasound, Meridian etc....I can't (unless I consider divorce, ...joking!) I'm not sur my 46 yr old ears could tell the difference between Meridian and my Rotel kit??...To many Ted Nugent and Punk concernts back in the 70's!!!!

Cheers
Martin

[phuz]

edit: removed by me

[shadow]

This sounds more like mental you know what to convince yourself that you made a valid buying decision. There is no doubt that Rotel is hifi as they have proven with product after product for twenty plus years. Its easy to make "hifi" for $3k plus per component, any company can do that. The fact that Rotel consistently does it for about half the price of the competition makes its customers happy while its angers those guys that spent ten times as much for a marginal improvement or a few more features. BTW, I understand that Tag is dead in home audio. Hows that "hi fi" title working out for them? :roll:

[RebelMan]

This sounds more like mental you know what to convince yourself that you made a valid buying decision.

Sorry shadow, but I don't agree with this statement. I don't believe that my Honda is a luxury car. To "convince" myself that it is would be sadly misguided.

However, I am convinced that Rotel is HiFi. Maybe entry level HiFi, but still HiFi. I believe Rotel's mission is to make the best products they can at prices that are reasonable. They build quality products using components that would traditionally be reserved for more expensive systems. I believe this is why they stand behind the products they build with long warranties and strong customer support. This is not misguided thinking.

I consider a Lexus to be a luxury car, just like I consider a Rolls Royce to be. I also consider Rotel to be HiFi, just like I consider Meridian to be. Price alone does not make one car more luxurious than the other neither does it make one DVD-A player more hifi than the other. Taking everything into consideration is what determines what you have. :wink:

[soundhound]

Being open for opinions, then I must. Shadow, I like you're take on it, and feel the same.

[booktrunk]

Yeah, I think Rotel are Hi-Fi.

I know they are also easy to knock, but also they do some impressive kit. With the laws on diminishing returns the value of the Home Cinema kit is unsurpassed. You can spend a hell of a lot more money to get a system that while better isn't that much better.

Hi-Fi doesn't have to mean expensive, but over the years people had got into the habit of assuming if it costs a fortune it must be good, and if it's relatively inexpensive it must be cheap crap. WRONG!! Some systems that costs 2 or 3 times the price of the Rotel kit do not sound as good.

IMHO

Steff

[soldonandy]

As an owner of many Rotel pieces and compulsive upgrader, my opinion is that Rotel is entry level "higher end", a notch up from the better mass marketed offerings such as Denon and Marantz and several notches below the real pricey gear like Arcam, Lexicon, Krell. I think that puts it in the "above mid hifi" range according to your scale. Rotel does an excellent job of creating "value" for their products and making you feel, however, that you are in the "hifi" category when making a purchase. Rotel achieves this by classy design, better than average build and top notch marketing materials. Performance wise, Rotel typically is well reviewed and in group tests, generally lumped in with the mid hifi gear.

One of the main differentiating factors between Rotel and the higher end is the manner in which it is produced. Rotel has more in common with the way it is produced with the "mid hifi" crowd than it does with the elite "hifi" pieces, the number of Rotel dealers is fairly high in the United States and the product is mass produced in China. Unlike Rotel, I have noticed the quality control in the big time "hifi" world is a little different. To that end, there is certainly no shortage of consumer complaints on the various forums regarding issues and support when it comes to Rotel. In comparison, my Anthem gear which I think has more in common with the products in the "hifi" category but which is similarly priced to Rotel, I have had a much different ownership experience. My questions to Anthem have been quickly and personally handled by a knowledgeable support staff member (Nick), the fit and finish are a tad better too.

For these reasons, I cannot conceive that Rotel is in the "hifi" category. This is not a knock on Rotel, but the reality is that Rotel does a real slick marketing job in seducing the consumer to believe that you are getting top end. Nothing wrong with buying entry level higher end stuff or even "midhifi" for that matter, I commend anyone with the means and taste to try a piece of the better audio/video world.

[RebelMan]

As an owner of many Rotel pieces and compulsive upgrader, my opinion is that Rotel is entry level "higher end", a notch up from the better mass marketed offerings such as Denon and Marantz and several notches below the real pricey gear like Arcam, Lexicon, Krell. I think that puts it in the "above mid hifi" range according to your scale. Rotel does an excellent job of creating "value" for their products and making you feel, however, that you are in the "hifi" category when making a purchase. Rotel achieves this by classy design, better than average build and top notch marketing materials. Performance wise, Rotel typically is well reviewed and in group tests, generally lumped in with the mid hifi gear.

I too regard Arcam (and the others you mentioned) as HiFi. So, would it surprise you to learn that Rotel's RSX-1056 out performed the highly revered Arcam DiVA AVR-300 in one review? This is just an example, but I think it says a lot about Rotel's performance.

One of the main differentiating factors between Rotel and the higher end is the manner in which it is produced. Rotel has more in common with the way it is produced with the "mid hifi" crowd than it does with the elite "hifi" pieces, the number of Rotel dealers is fairly high in the United States and the product is mass produced in China. Unlike Rotel, I have noticed the quality control in the big time "hifi" world is a little different. To that end, there is certainly no shortage of consumer complaints on the various forums regarding issues and support when it comes to Rotel.

There is some truth to this. However, all manufacturers use ouside resources to some degree. It really comes down to quality control and I believe respected HiFi companies like Rotel work hard to address these issues when they do surface.

For these reasons, I cannot conceive that Rotel is in the "hifi" category. This is not a knock on Rotel, but the reality is that Rotel does a real slick marketing job in seducing the consumer to believe that you are getting top end. Nothing wrong with buying entry level higher end stuff or even "midhifi" for that matter, I commend anyone with the means and taste to try a piece of the better audio/video world.

Can you really fault Rotel for marketing their products as well as they have? B&W has marketed their products just as well and they, I am sure, are still regarded as HiFi.

Thanks for your feedback.

[soundhound]

I believe the $$$$ invested fuels our passion about any and all of our beloved "systems". Webster defines high fidelity as: The reproduction of an effect (as sound or image) that is very faithful to the original. This makes the answer to the initial question pretty cut and dried, allthough the opinions side of things make for some good foruming......

[DrJRapp]

Based on the Sound Quality, IMHO Rotel definitly ranks as HiFi. Build quality is midfi and reliability, which is the pitts, is on the level of cheap consumer electronics. It's the same old story, you get what you pay for, or in other words, there is no such thing as a free lunch.

In order to meet it's development costs Rotel must sell in mass at a (relatively) low price. To do so means buying cheap parts and paying cheap labor. Cheap parts may sound ok, but have high failure rates. Cheap labor is just that, and ALWAYS creates quality issues. Cheap parts and labor is why Rotel is having so many problems over the past few years. I have had all three of my last three Rotel components fail. My RB 1080 lost a channel. My 1st RSP 1098 had DTS issues. The replacement that Rotel sent me blew a video board within a week. It's only been a week since that board was replaced and I'm still holding my breath. Rotel is relatively inexpensive, but only by a small margin when it comes to it's flagship pieces. We deserve better.

[RebelMan]

I believe the $$$$ invested fuels our passion about any and all of our beloved "systems". Webster defines high fidelity as: The reproduction of an effect (as sound or image) that is very faithful to the original. This makes the answer to the initial question pretty cut and dried, allthough the opinions side of things make for some good foruming......

True. So, how did you answer the question?

[RebelMan]

Jerry, your situation is unfortunate. Did Rotel's manufacturing practices change within the last few years, leading you to believe that this is the reason for your issues?

[Cracking Oboe]

Performance wise, Rotel typically is well reviewed and in group tests, generally lumped in with the mid hifi gear.

I too regard Arcam (and the others you mentioned) as HiFi. So, would it surprise you to learn that Rotel's RSX-1056 out performed the highly revered Arcam DiVA AVR-300 in one review? This is just an example, but I think it says a lot about Rotel's performance.

I think that group tests could help determine where to place Rotel on the scale. Maybe other examples of the group tests RebelMan mentioned should be listed.

Two more examples I know of are:

1. The What's HI-Fi review of the RSP-1066 and the RMB-1075 against the likes of Arcam, TAG, Cyrus, Myryad, and Primare. Rotel won.

2. In Hi-Fi news the Rotel RDV-1060 (far from the costliest player in the group) beat out the Arcam DV89 (and others) in DVD-A sound in HiFi News.

Not only is Rotel compared to equipment we would all agree that is Hi-Fi... it wins out. :T

Cracking!

[DrJRapp]

Jerry, your situation is unfortunate. Did Rotel's manufacturing practices change within the last few years, leading you to believe that this is the reason for your issues?

To answer your question, the increased problems seem to be happening only lately so it is hard to strictly pin it on Rotel's recent move of it's manufacturing facilities to China. Probably it is more a problem with Rotel's choice the suppliers of the component parts it doesn't manufacture itself, and Rotel's lack of adequite QC proceedures at the point of assembly to screen and identify them.

The real unfortunate part is that I am not alone. I constantly recommend Rotel to my customers and friends and the amount of equipment showing up with flaws is very alarming. For example, most recently, besides my own 1098 experience, I convinced a friend to buy an RSX1056 over a Denon 5808. His receiver arrived with a defect and is now being replaced by Rotel. My dealer informs me that he sees far more problems with Rotel gear vs the other lines he sells. Unfortunatly, my dealer is not the only local dealer that says this, there is one in the local area who always trys to steer me away from Rotel, I'm starting to understand why.

Fortunatly, the overall performance of Rotel gear is so good that once a good piece of gear is landed, or a defect repaired, then the memory of the problems ultimately fade.

[RebelMan]

Thanks for your answer Jerry.

My dealer informs me that he sees far more problems with Rotel gear vs the other lines he sells. Unfortunatly, my dealer is not the only local dealer that says this, there is one in the local area who always trys to steer me away from Rotel, I'm starting to understand why.

It bothers me when dealers say things like this without qualifying their statements. Maybe they are seeing more, but what is the percentage? If Rotel sells twice as many units as another brand, then it would not be unreasonable to see twice as many returns. Don't you agree?

[soldonandy]

response to RebelMan

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I too regard Arcam (and the others you mentioned) as HiFi. So, would it surprise you to learn that Rotel's RSX-1056 out performed the highly revered Arcam DiVA AVR-300 in one review? This is just an example, but I think it says a lot about Rotel's performance.

No it would not surprise me, the AVR-300 is Arcams attempt to have an entry level product to compete with the likes of the Rotel offerings at that price point. Arcam's receivers are not necessarily their most competitive products, Arcam separates is what really widens the gap when compared to Rotel.

There is some truth to this. However, all manufacturers use ouside resources to some degree. It really comes down to quality control and I believe respected HiFi companies like Rotel work hard to address these issues when they do surface.

I don't doubt that Rotel works hard, all I can tell you that it takes two days to get a return email from Rotel as compared to a personal phone call from Anthem.

Can you really fault Rotel for marketing their products as well as they have? B&W has marketed their products just as well and they, I am sure, are still regarded as HiFi.

I don't fault Rotel, I actually commend them for their marketing efforts, apparently you bought into it and have taken it to a level in your mind where you want to believe that Rotel is shoulder to shoulder with the best that the Hifi world has to offer. My opinion is that again, Rotel gives you a decent value, does a nice job of marketing to make you believe that you are getting high end, the performance of their goods is competitive but not with the best and their quality is more comparable to mid hifi. Moreover, compared with the Adcoms, Outlaws, etc., I believe that Rotel is the brand to own and Rotel even outperforms "real" hifi lower end offerings such as your Arcam AVR 300 example.

Thanks for your feedback.

[RebelMan]

No it would not surprise me, the AVR-300 is Arcams attempt to have an entry level product to compete with the likes of the Rotel offerings at that price point. Arcam's receivers are not necessarily their most competitive products, Arcam separates is what really widens the gap when compared to Rotel.

Actually, it is ARCAM's second attempt, that I know of. Remember the AVR-200? I don't agree that it is entry level though. ARCAM is usually far more expensive than Rotel is but is often compared to it.

I don't fault Rotel, I actually commend them for their marketing efforts, apparently you bought into it and have taken it to a level in your mind where you want to believe that Rotel is shoulder to shoulder with the best that the Hifi world has to offer.

I think you are making some assumptions here. I was seriously considering NAD, ARCAM, ADCOM and a few others (yes, even Anthem) long before I came to know Rotel. It was through the reviews of professionals and non-professionals that I came to know and regard Rotel as HiFi. I never go by marketing hype. I go by personal experiences and the experiences of others.

[DrJRapp]

Thanks for your answer Jerry.


It bothers me when dealers say things like this without qualifying their statements. Maybe they are seeing more, but what is the percentage? Don't you agree?

My dealer did qualify it with all the gory details, I just didn't think it was appropriate for me to publicise it.

[RebelMan]

My dealer did qualify it with all the gory details, I just didn't think it was appropriate for me to publicise it.

Okay. Then to be fair, I must say that I have visited two Rotel dealers that have not experienced the kind of issues (or at least not to the degree) brought up in this forum. This is not to say they don't exist. We could argue logistical product volumes to qualify the issue even further. Assuming all else being equal, its a draw.

[DrJRapp]

Okay. I have visited two Rotel dealers that have not experienced the kind of issues (or at least not to the degree) brought up in this forum. This is not to say they don't exist.

There are a lot of dealers that won't admit to ANY of their brands having ANY problems. That is not to say that they don't exist.

[ds22030]

QC concerns is the primary reason I have not pulled the trigger on a 1056 or 1068 to go with my 1080...which luckily has not had issues. Jerry has a balanced view, seeing the strength of Rotel sound but seeing its weakness in relibility as well. Granted forums like this does attract problem posts but come on....this is not HTIB we are talking about here....people paid good money for their gear and deserve better QC....

[RebelMan]

There are a lot of dealers that won't admit to ANY of their brands having ANY problems. That is not to say that they don't exist.

True. And I am sure there are a lot of dealers that will complain about the products they carry if the manufacturer makes them feel second rate.

[RebelMan]

Jerry has a balanced view, seeing the strength of Rotel sound but seeing its weakness in relibility as well. Granted forums like this does attract problem posts but come on....this is not HTIB we are talking about here....people paid good money for their gear and deserve better QC....

Agreed.

[mariachi]

ds22030,

You hit the nail in the head. And that's why I'm leaving Rotel. I'm tired of coming to the forum and seeing a new thread about people having some kind of problem with their Rotel unit. Instead of hearing how people are enjoying their system, I see people talking about how they're on their "3rd unit" and that one seems to be working fine. That's unacceptable. A mass market receiver doesn't pose that many problems. I've decided to go with a different brand, even though I'll pay more, I have to security that it won't die on my suddendly.

[soldonandy]

reply to Rebelman

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Actually, it is ARCAM's second attempt, that I know of. Remember the AVR-200? I don't agree that it is entry level though. ARCAM is usually far more expensive than Rotel is but is often compared to it.

There was also an Arcam AVR-100 but that is either here nor there. I subscribe and buy all of the home theater magazines and have seen Arcam receivers compared to Rotel but never their amps, dvd players and pre-amps.


I think you are making some assumptions here. I was seriously considering NAD, ARCAM, ADCOM and a few others (yes, even Anthem) long before I came to know Rotel. It was through the reviews of professionals and non-professionals that I came to know and regard Rotel as HiFi. I never go by marketing hype. I go by personal experiences and the experiences of others.

I apologize for making assumptions but we are all influenced by "marketing hype", in fact, most of the reviews we read are influenced by advertising in some fashion. I think that when you get into pissing contests like this, it is all a matter of opinion so if you want to categorize Rotel along with the cream of the crop then so be it. Further, I am the last one who wants to rain on your parade, like I said, I commend your pride of ownership. All I can do is repeat what I said before but I would like to emphasize based on some of the feedback here that you have to be a little concerned with Rotel's quality control.

[soundhound]

Knock on wood, I am on my 10th Rotel component, still own 3, and have had but 1 very minor issue with any of them. My RSX-1055 had the 12 trigger disabled by a cable coming unpluged from a circuit board on the inside. I was the 2nd owner so who knows..........If I were a gambling man I would bet that 40-50% of the issues that appear on this forum could be attributed to 1st time owners having set up issues, software download issues, supplied power issues, cable routing issues, etc.......I am not excusing those who have some very good knowledge and have had true problems, it's just that I am not ready to stop recommending their products to anyone who is in search of a bang for the buck hi-fi system. One of the engineers I work with took my advice, went to see my buddy @ the dealer where I go, and is going to put a nice Rotel system in his newly done dedicated a/v room.

[will1066]

Rotel is definitely hifi. It says so on the box.

[DrJRapp]

Instead of hearing how people are enjoying their system, I see people talking about how they're on their "3rd unit" and that one seems to be working fine. That's unacceptable. A mass market receiver doesn't pose that many problems. I've decided to go with a different brand, even though I'll pay more, I have to security that it won't die on my suddendly.

That is the value of these forums and I commend you on your courage in sharing your decision to go elsewhere. The Higher ups at Rotel need to hear that "voting with your feet" is really happening so that they will have greater motivation to improve the situation. I love my Rotel, but I currently have an aching back from lugging my well built, heavy 1098 in and out of my equipment rack three times.

[Mitchell]

As I read it, the general consensus of this thread is that Rotel sound, with properly working equipment would be definitely considered HI-Fi, even if only entry level. I agree with that. When doing sound comparisons at dealers I put the sound squarely in the HI Fi category.
The question really seems to be, do reliability issues take it out of the Hi FI category?
I would say no.
While disappointing to get a unit with problems, when ultimately fixed as they all seem to be, the Rotel equipment according to many people on this forum deliver excellent Hi FI sound. The argument about whether it is as good as a Krell or Arcam or others can and will be discussed forever, but the fact that there is even an argument that Rotel gear compares to other brands that noone would argue is not Hifi (and costs significantly more,) I believe proves that it is HIFI.
My experience at the dealer and the opinion of overwhelmingly smart educated people on this forum also says to me that when people shop for equipment and their ears make the decisions about what Hi Fi equipment to buy, they often buy Rotel.
The reliability problems which may or may not be overblown remind me of Jaguars in the 80's, Gibson guitars in the 70's, Harley Davidson some years back and many other products where the design is excellent but the implementation is uneven. All three of the above mentioned products (except possibly Jaguar) are considered example of products that have been turned around and now thrive.
Who would argue that even during under there worst of times that a Jag was not a luxury car, a Gibson Les Paul not a work of art and a Harley not an amazing bike?
I have had one small problem with my 1080 which has been fixed and the sound coming out of my all Rotel system is I believe HiFi. I believe, coupled with my B&W speakers it is among the best systems that can be bought for between 5 and 6 thousand dollars. I am sure there are others who would have made other choices and perhaps I would have also if my budget was double, but it was not.
Thats my 2 cents

[RebelMan]

Nicely put Mitchell.

[soldonandy]

Wrong, I don't think that people are saying that it would be "hifi" except for the reliability issues. Don't forget that this thread was started asking people to categorize Rotel in a particular level ranging from low to high end. I think the consensus is that there is a high end categorized as "hifi" and a lower tier of "hifi" categorized as "midhifi". I think the consensus is that Rotel is closer to mid than hi.

There is a pretty substantial difference between Rotel and Krell, Lexicon, Arcam, Meridian, etc. in the part selection, manufacturing process, QC, perhaps warranty and so on. Performance wise, hearing is subjective and nobody can agree on whether or not Rotel is in the ballpark with these higher cost brands, further, it depends on so many factors like partnering equipment, room acoustics and taste. If you want to say that Rotel is "hifi" based on your opinion of the sound, it is subjective. I am only saying that if you take all of the factors in to account, in terms of overall integrity, Rotel isn't in the same class according to the scale.

The Jaguar in my opinion is a shakey example, Jaguar's are more of a niche automobile catering to folks with a higher budget looking for something a little more sportier or exotic. The Rotel is more of a Camry, sold on the merits of its' "value". I live near the Philadelphia area and there are 1/2 dozen dealers at my fingertips pushing the Rotel/B&W thing as their lead brands. These stores also may offer Marantz or Integra as a price point alternative and they will also hitch up to one or two more "exotic" brands like Krell or Meridian for that segment of their business. But there are always more Rotel gear boxes walking out the door under someone's armpit than a car backed up to the loading dock for a Krell Amp. What this tells me is that Rotel fits more of the needs of the masses, it is an easy product to sell for the customer on the upgrade path from Tweeter/Chain Store A and the Rotel line gives the dealer the flexibility to sell affordable Rotel amps & DVD players in addition to having the pricier but far from high end pre-amp for the customer with those needs and desires. Moreover, it is an easy sell for the dealer because it looks respectable, relatively affordable and it is produced in enough quantities to meet demand. Vastly different story from the true audiophile dealer, the kind of store that is a little more unique, may not be merchandised as nicely, in fact, it may be a mess of pricey custom order gear. You'll know the kind of place that I am talking about because they don't sell Rotel there and if you haven't been to this type of store, the equipment is unobtainable and/or unrealistic for most of us, you may even find the $2500 cables and $500 power cords are a little amusing. Whether you buy in to it or not, that my friend is "hif".

[DrJRapp]

The Jaguar in my opinion is a shakey example, Jaguar's are more of a niche automobile catering to folks with a higher budget looking for something a little more sportier or exotic. The Rotel is more of a Camry, sold on the merits of its' "value".

Actually, as both a long time Jaguar owner, and a (somewhat) long time Rotel owner I see a lot of points on which to compare the two, however, I do think that Jaguar is more of a premium commodity whereas the Rotel is more commonplace, but the percentages may be closer than you think. Toyota only produced about 6 times as many Camry's last year as Jaguar produced X-Types, whereas if we were to look at say...the number of 2804s that Denon produced by comparison to 1056s for Rotel it would probably be a number closer to 20 or 40 to 1.

The real question is where, or how do we draw the line? 40 years ago that was easy, HiFi gear clearly stood heads and sholders above it's CE counterparts, both in price and performance. In those times we had two categories of HiFi equipment, the "audiophile" grade and the "esoteric" grade. All these lines have gotten blurred as CE gear got much better and some of the "esoteric" brands like Fisher, KLH, Marantz and Harmon Kardon evolved into nothing more than nameplates for CE. Nowadays "audiophile" only applies to certain gear, and if you were to ask a 20 something what esoteric meant, the reaction would be "Huuu?".

[soldonandy]

Actually, as both a long time Jaguar owner, and a (somewhat) long time Rotel owner I see a lot of points on which to compare the two, however, I do think that Jaguar is more of a premium commodity whereas the Rotel is more commonplace, but the percentages may be closer than you think. Toyota only produced about 6 times as many Camry's last year as Jaguar produced X-Types, whereas if we were to look at say...the number of 2804s that Denon produced by comparison to 1056s for Rotel it would probably be a number closer to 20 or 40 to 1.

Sorry, I don't follow you, first you say that there are a lot of points to compare the two but don't mention any and then you say that "Jaguar is more of a premium commodity whereas the Rotel is more commonplace". I think the fact you say that that Camry produced 6 times as many Camry's last year than the X-type actually makes my point. Further, my original comment that Camry is sold on the merits of it's value is a true statement and the fact that many Rotel brochures tout the term "value" is the basis of my comment. I still say that the Jaguar-Rotel comparison is weak at best and the the car analogy thing is just more rhetoric.

The real question is where, or how do we draw the line. 40 years ago that was easy, HiFi gear clearly stood heads and sholders above it's CE counterparts, both in price and performance. In those times we had two categories of HiFi equipment, the "audiophile" grade and the "esoteric" grade. All these lines have gotten blurred as CE gear got much better and some of the "esoteric" brands like Fisher, KLH, Marantz and Harmon Kardon evolved into nothing more than nameplates for CE. Nowadays "audiophile" only applies to certain gear, and if you were to ask a 20 something what esoteric meant, the reaction would be "Huuu?".

I am not sure what your position is on this discussion, I see alot of words am not sure what your point is. I do agree that the real attempt here is where do we draw the line and all I am saying is that there is a line between pricey audiophile equipment and Rotel.

[gd]

This thread is pointless... what is the value of classifying Rotel products?... to give it a 'high-end' rating as if to imply that you don't have much untill you move up to a Rotel?

It's just AV gear -- AV gear with a discernible performance factor in a certain price range... I greatly enjoy the Rotel components in my 2-ch system, excellent music and near-flawless dependability... but I'm confident I could build any number of alternate systems -- with 'better' and also 'lesser' components -- that would stand tall on their own and leave few if any wanting for a Rotel.

Rotel sits wherever it does on the food chain in large part as a niche player... 'more' than a Yamaha, 'less' than a Krell... it's just another choice to be researched, auditioned and considered.

A good choice, mind you...

[RebelMan]

I think Jerry's message was pretty clear. Rotel is not as mass produced as you are lead to believe. Which, according to you (Andy), has more impact on wether it is HiFi or not. Obviously, Rotel is not in the same class as Naim, Linn, Meridian, Krell, Bryston, Macintosh in terms of price. But interms of sound, I believe it can stand head and shoulders with the best of these. Many professional reviewers say so. But you disagree and that's okay.

If Rotel is going to compared to automobiles, a Lexus is more befitting. I agree Rotel has a price/performance goal in the products that they make and sell. That would be high performance products at affordable prices. Absolutely nothing wrong with that. The most expensive speakers in the world do not bear the name B&W. But B&W best has earned a very respectable position in the HiFi world. Likewise with Rotel.

[RebelMan]

This thread is pointless... what is the value of classifying Rotel products?... to give it a 'high-end' rating as if to imply that you don't have much untill you move up to a Rotel?

The point is to see how others view what they get from Rotel in terms of how HiFi is defined. Afterall, who really determines what's HiFi? You? Me? The magazines? The manufacturers? Pointless? Not at all pointless.