Rotel 10xx Equipment Cold Sounding/no Mids?

[ti33er]

Hi, I have a question for all you Rotel 10xx owners?

Case History:

* 7 months ago owned the NAD L56/L76 combo - paired with Mordaunt-short 900 series speakers (www.mordaunt-short.co.uk) - these actually sounded lovely, and “almost” wish I could go back now – I moved on because of Earth looping problems!

* 5 months ago, moved onto a Rotel RSX1055 – a mere 2 weeks later, upgraded to the Rotel 1066/1075 (Pre/Pro) after reading some threads on here, and the “Rotel Super Test Winner” - http://rotel.com/introduction/pdfs/r...0Supertest.pdf

* 4 months ago, ditched Mordaunt-shorts and purchased B&W Nautilus 805 speakers (+ HTM2 Centre) – read up that they were a good match for the Rotel 1075!?


Problem:

Only recently have I lodged my disgruntlements, as I have been reading on Forums/Reviews that Rotel equipment (in fact ALL equipment) takes time to burn in. Now bearing this in mind, I have been patiently waiting for my equipment to "sound great"...and I will say that I think that there is a subtle difference in the smoothness of the sound!? ...BUT *crunch* (and all the HiFi dealers I bought from, even B&W and Rotel themselves after cornering them at the Bristol HiFi show in the UK, haven't got a decent answer for me, except the usual "snake oil" speaker cables/interconnects, which make very little/subtle difference IMO!) Rotel equipment, I am convinced, lacks lower mids/upper bass, this being the core element in sound to make music “warm” and embracing!?

I did read one review (and only one, and for the life of me cannot find this review again ARGH) on the Internet, where somebody had shot down Rotel for “…having no Mids…”, and he went for NAD instead?

If I compare the sound coming from my TV, and cheap Aiwa HiFi, to that of my expensive HT set up, even my girlfriend can notice what I am complaining about – the Rotel etc. has fantastic highs, and prestigious lows, but very little warmth (lower Mids/upper Bass!?)

I am completely befuzzled, because of the ??? from Dealers and Rotel themselves, but wonder if this isn’t the Pre/Pro1066(?), reason I say this is that with my NAD system I still owned a REL subwoofer (a Storm III <www.rel.net>) and with both the Hi AND Lo level connects, the subwoofer reacted much higher up the frequency level i.e. 100Hz boOom was far more apparent with NAD (this has little to do with crossover as sub LFE disabled in Stereo, and it on the Hi Level connect!) than both Rotel models, in fact thought there might be something wrong with my Sub - there was not though!

Ok, I am beginning to ramble, so I will leave here with the question of:

“Is anybody else experiencing this lack of 'Mids', and if so have you found any solution?” – other than 'donating' the Rotel equipment to bargain hunters on eBay?"

Many thanks, Paul

[DrBoom]

Being a Nautilus/Rotel owner myself, I can find myself completely in what you're saying.
I too started off with N805's, RSP1098 and RMB1075.
After a few months i got the 804's for frontspeakers, and the 805's moved to the rear.
What I already heard on the 805's, the 804 made even more obvious.
In my opinion, Rotel and B&W isn't a good match if you like a detailed midrange, airy treble, and tight bass.
I got none of these on my setup, so I started looking at possible ways to fix it.
First one was cable, changed to Kimber 8TC/4TC bi-wire, which already made a big difference compared to standard 12 gauge zipcord.
Still not satisfied, I tried a different poweramp, namely a Parasound HCA2205AT and the difference was pretty obvious (it retails for 3x the price of the 1075 though, but I bought it used).
If you want more authority in the bass, Parasound should be on your list.
It also brought a lot more detail in the midrange, and just plain "more" midrange.
Highs got somewhat crisper too, but could still improve a lot to my taste.
I believe the soft treble can be attributed to the preamp, but as far as bass goes, that's entirely the poweramp's doing.
Midrange is a combination of both, the poweramp isn't very forward sounding, and neither is the preamp.
I read in your post that you find the Rotel does have good bass and highs, well I didn't think so, but that's probably just personal taste.
I found the sound just too soft and mellow, with no highs what so ever and no control in the bass (especially with the 804).
I think the "great match" between Rotel and B&W is really just a matter of personal opinion.
If you haven't tried switching cables and are using ordinary single-wire zipcord, at least TRY and see what a more expensive cable can do.
Just find a dealer that will lend you a pair, and if you don't hear a difference return them.

[ti33er]

Dr Boom: Thanks for the reply, that was most helpfull, and nice to know someone with the same speakers that I have (am contemplating 804's/3's btw) - good taste :W !

...however, no offence meant but I am not convinced that speaker cable makes such a big difference, I have Mordaunt-short Silver Maestro bi-wire (I compared this with "Van Den Hull CS-122 Hybrid" speaker cable, which was recommended by B&W to be a good match because this is used for wiring inside the B&W speakers apparently?, and a warm cable, but all I found was that it was ever so slightly 'not as punchy'?)

It is the Mid frequencies that are not strong enough, like you have stated - and I doubt any cable or interconnect would make that drastic a change, the one I am looking for - so I guess from what you have said, Rotel is not really for me then because I desire "warm" sounding music. ARGH!!! (I think most people do?)

Personally, the detail/bass in the music etc is satisfactory for my taste, I only wish Rotel would have a music mode/config option that pumped up the 100-300Hz range! :M

[aud19]

First let me say that my "great match" might be your "sounds like garbage". That's personal preference my friend and there's no getting around it. I will also add that cables, gear and software do make a difference. If you're playing a poorly recorded CD through Rat-Shack cables on a $50 DVD player you picked up at Costco (not saying that you are) on your expensive gear, it won't sound good. It could also be that you might prefer silver over copper cables or vice versa... Or it could be that to your ears, other peoples "great match" is your "sounds like garbage". This is exactly why you always hear people stress the "go listen for yourself rule".

Myself I own a set of Energy's C-series speakers and find the highs, mids and lows all quite lovely in combination with my 1066 and 1075 So is it that you don't like your speakers with the Rotel gear or you don't like your Rotel gear with your speakers? Is it the Source or cables? Is it all of the above? The only way to know is to listen and unfortunately you may have had to spend a lot of money to get to that conclusion.... :? You may very well just prefer a "warmer" sound than the people who are quite enjoying their B&W/Rotel gear. To them your "sounds great" might sound like overly warm and coloured.

One thing that I can think of that might help is checking your bass management/crossover. Adjusting it may allow your sub to take a bit of the upper bass stress from the amp and open up your mids a tiny bit but I don't thinks this will solve your problem that you just prefer a "different sound".

Jason

[Chuck]

I think this is exactly what I've been talking about in other threads. I have the 1056, today is my last chance to return it (7 day return policy when the dealer says it takes 100 hours to break in? Rubbish). I do remember listening to the 1055 / 1065 / 1066&1075 about 3 months ago, and from that brief bit I thought the 1055 & the 1066&1075 combo was more laid back than the 1065. I'm going to try and race over to my dealer after work to return the 1056 / listen to the other amps again to compare.

[Spurt]

I have the same experience with my RSX 1056
When I'm hearing Eric Clapton in stereo (analog bypass mode) it sounds so wonderfull , sweet and with alot of vocal focus !!!
But when I instead hear the music though the digital cox. kabel (same CD & CD player) the sound gets hard and Eric vocal very small. :cry:

[aud19]

A lot of people (myself included) prefer listening via analog connection and bypass mode. In that scenario you're using totally different DAC's in totally different machines though and THAT difference doesn't really have anything to do with your speakers and amp etc.

Jason

[ti33er]

Hi Jason,

I understand what you are saying, and I agree mostly.

FYI I am using good speakers, source components, interconnects, hifi stands etc. ...and have used other speakers, source components, interconnects, speaker cable etc. around the Rotel gear to test and try to isolate the problem - and it seems to be the Rotel stuff? ...It may just be my rotten luck (I have terrible luck with electronics btw, and I mean it! ops: ) that I have had two systems from Rotel with these IMO fundamental flaws, ...unlikely though? - posting a thread on this site was a last attempt to see if anybody else has experienced/is experiencing what I am experiencing and has a solution to this (after slagging through Dealers etc.) because I don't want to have to sell my equipment if I don't have to?

...all of my friends (and girlfriend) who have come to take a listen agree when I point this out - the (I am guessing when I give you these figures, but this how best I can describe) frequency band between 100Hz - 300Hz is not loud enough, overpowered by the rest, like on a frequency slider board, the 10-99/100-499/500-999/....etc. sliders are set below the others? - like the Pre-Amp section in "WinAmp" for PC, you can alter the volumes of these frequencies, create a 'curvature/belly' in the middle, which would make content played thru WinAmp sound warmer?

Also owning a NAD system for over a year, I can distinguish the differences between the two manufacturers sounds now - it seems that NAD = warm, smooth; ROTEL = cool, sharp?

*Mr Boom* knows what I am talking about as he currently has a pretty close set up, which has given me a little more closure I think?

Best regards,

Paul

PS. No offence meant to you by this, but I have read a good few articles about Speaker Cable/Interconnects (coupled with personal experience) and believe that these components of audio make only, very subtle changes. Some of my references, which make some interesting reads can be found here:

http://www.verber.com/mark/cables.html

http://www.audioholics.com/techtips/setup/interconnects/snake_oil1.php

[aud19]

Chuck and Paul, As much as I'd like to :P I can't MAKE you like the "Rotel sound" It's also not the end all of audio gear. I'll be the first to tell you there's lot's of other companies out there that make better stuff. As far as I know, all of it costs more though :? There are other options out there in and close to this price range and you should explore them.

Also, IMO, what you're describing to me as your desired "sound" is coloured, overly warm sound. To me it would likely sound inaccurate and I'd probably come to the conclusion that your ears have been tainted and trained to listen to improperly reproduced sounds from years of listening on inferior equipment. (I know it makes me sound like a pompous ass but... lol) But that's just my opinion. If YOU like that warm coloured sound (IMO ops: ) and that's what gives you tingles when listening to music, that's what you should get! It's your ears and your money. Buy what makes you happy not me. I can't re-iterate enough the value of listening before you buy to avoid this scenario.

Jason

[aud19]

Sorry you posted while I was writing there No offense taken either and the same goes for my post to you.

You're right Nad does tend to have a warmer sound and IMO Rotel is more neutral. Again thses are just my opinions though and if you prefer a warmer sound that's what you should get.

I also agree with your comments on interconnects and cables. I'm sorry if I wasn't clear on that but I wasn't trying to say they can have a complete 90 degree change on system characteristics. I was trying to say that something like copper vs silver cables will tend to warm vs brighten a system. But only slightly, as you pointed out.

Jason

[ti33er]

LOL, Jason, you could very well be spot on about me liking 'coloured' music - this has been in my thoughts believe it or not, although I like to think otherwise because that is not a virtue when it comes to hi-end audio! ...I do much prefer the 'warmer' NAD type sound, and my fear is now that I will have to go another MORE EXPENSIVE (x2 ARGH!!) route - GF will kill me, I haven't even paid of the B&W's yet!

Damn my ears! :W

[DarrenR]

Rolled-off highs

I have had the same experience as DrBoom using RSP1066/RB985II/B&W CDMNT-7, but the opposite experience to the original poster. Lower bass is poorly defined (probably due to amp), whereas upper highs appear rolled off. Just as an experiment, I did a comparison between my old Onkyo surround receiver (using pre-outs) & the RSP-1066, both driving the RB985II (+Denon-2900 universal player + Perpetual Technologies DAC). The RSP1066 (to my ears) had better defined mid-range, but with the highs the Onkyo trumped the Rotel. Listening to, for example, a triangle in an orchestral piece (or even in some pop music), the RSP-1066 presented a dull/unfocussed/rolled-off image compared with the Onkyo. I have fiddled with various cables (plus component isolation, changes in speaker placement, room treatments, careful placement of cables, installation of dedicated lines to digital & analogue sources) but to no avail. Perhaps I have a faulty processor?

As for lower/mid-bass, many B&W's (particularly the Nautilus line) are known to like a high current amp, & it is possible the CDM's have a similar requirement. I suspect the 985 doesn't cut it in terms of providing the neccesary power to the bottom end.

[Bam!]

Guys!

I don`t want to be shot dead here....but I have to say you guys definetly like coloured sound....which is O.K....there are Macintosh lovers everywhere. For me Rotel gives you true sound....authoritive sound...clean sound....NAD is tight, detailed and powerful coloured sound....no question...

This is why there are different people and different gear.... If EVERYONE loved Rotel and owned Rotel there would be no other manufacturer.

I agree with Jason completly...I can`t echo his three posts enough. Also you evolve with time and evolve in your sound likes....


I wish you all the best of luck in your conquest for the perfect sound.....honestly Good Luck.....for me I think it is a life long search....and life long adventure!

[DrJRapp]

Also, IMO, what you're describing to me as your desired "sound" is coloured, overly warm sound. To me it would likely sound inaccurate and I'd probably come to the conclusion that your ears have been tainted and trained to listen to improperly reproduced sounds from years of listening on inferior equipment. (I know it makes me sound like a pompous ass but... lol) But that's just my opinion. Jason

Jason, I completely agree. I went through a similar experience when switching from my Denon 3801 to my Rotel separates. At first I felt that something was severly missing. After listening for about three days I came to the conclusion that yes indeed something was missing, and that something was the overemphasized midrange and bloated midrange compression that most receiver manufacturers design into their equipment to make them seem more powerful than they really are. Distortion of the audio signal, intentional or not, is still distortion. If wanting the pure undistorted true signal makes us pompus AH's then so be it. At least we are esoteric PAs....

[pbarata]

I have to say that what I like most in Rotel is the clear sound it can reproduce, especially in the midrange. Bass is also very strong and I confess, some times a little bombastic, but this as to do with my speakers, which are floor stands from Monitor Audio, the Silver 8i model. Where I can perceive some limitiations are in the highs, probably to the characteristic of my Rotel RCD-1070 player, which seams to cut a little early the high frequency output.

Best sound for me is as clear and transparent as possible, and Rotel allow me to afford it !!

[Aussie Geoff]

Some special characteristics of the 805's

Paul,

Some further thoughts

Firstly the higher end B&W series (especially the Nautilus 800s) are increasingly hard to drive. The 805's not too bad moving progressively through to the 801s ("bastards" to drive loving current and very high quality). They have complex crossovers with widely varying impedances (you should see the graphs!). All this places some real stresses on an amplifier which (when one thinks of impedance moving from very low to high and back again across the frequency). See this link for a picture of this and the matching phase angle for the Nautilus 805 and you will understand! Stereophile Review (of the older model 805)

Secondly there is a school of thought that the B&Ws have a "special" midrange sound - a family characteristic. For some this can be very attractive for others it can be harder to adjust too. You may also be hearing this as a change from your other speakers.

Thirdly the 805s have a slightly unusual frequency graph that matches your perceived sound. Have a look at the graph Here (of the older model 805) and you can see a Bass Peak at about 100 Hz followed by a sustained 4-5 dB drop off in the 300 Hz range upwards. This sounds like what you are hearing. This will be made worse / impacted by any limitations in an amplifiers current capacity (hence high end B&Ws sounding much better with very high quality / high current amps)

Lastly (and less likely) could you have a phase difference between your speakers and a sub-woofer. This will cause one to cancel the other out at frequences near and above the crossover frequency (creating a "dip" in the sound.

I am sure that you will find a very high current amp will change the sound of the 805s. You may also want to consider different speakers and keep the Rotel. Again you may find that for your room / ears different speakers will suit your taste better.

All food for thought for you I hope

Geoff

[Bam!]

Geoff!

Well said....well written.....I'd love to hear some comments on these last posts from the guys.....

Also when talkin' about high current amps...meaning Class A....that is a whole other conversation here.....I think they seem to think that other Class A/B amps....sound better.....

[ti33er]

Thanks for all the great replies guys...right now I think that I will just have to put up with my equipment because I am "not allowed" to spend any more money just yet (GF wears the pants!) - but who knows, this may actually be a good thing! With all this new 'food for thought' about what things 'should 'sound like, I may grow to appreciate my set up!? :wink:

Best regards,

Paul

PS. I have heard about B&W speakers being harder to drive, but would think that the ROTEL 1075 is adequate (120W!) - that rolloff issue on the B&W's that you mentioned does make sense, although I am biwiring which should negate that(?)...should I perhaps not biwire(?) - I have always noticed the missing Mids with ROTEL (colouration!?), but this became more apparent with the B&W's perhaps because they are more accurate speakers than Mordaunt-shorts?

PPS. To be fair, I have only really been into Audio for about 2 years now - have done plenty of reading, but learning more every day - thanks again guys! :T

[DrBoom]

To be honest, I liked the sound of the Rotel much better on my cheap Yamaha speakers.
But then again, those were pretty bright sounding speakers.
So it's all in the match, I probably would like Rotel too, but on different speakers.
And since I'm not changing my speakers any time soon, I'm changing my amp to suit my taste.

[aud19]

Geoff thanks for lending your technical expertise yet again buddy Also for making some very good, additional points :T

Thanks for all the great replies guys...right now I think that I will just have to put up with my equipment because I am "not allowed" to spend any more money just yet (GF wears the pants!) - but who knows, this may actually be a good thing! With all this new 'food for thought' about what things 'should 'sound like, I may grow to appreciate my set up!?

LOL :lol: Don't worry Paul, if any man tells you he's in charge in his relationship he's one of three things. One, a liar, two, dillusional or three... stupid :lol:

Hopefully, as you stated, sticking with your current setup might allow you to learn to appreciate less coloured sound and re-train your ears and brain to it. Definately investigate some of the other points though. Check your subs phase in relation to your speakers to start. What do you have the crossover set at anyways? Also as Geoff also eluded to even the 805's like some power. The 1075 is definately adequate to good for your speakers. To really make them sing though I'd say 150-200W would open them up, 804's 200-250W etc. So at the risk of having you sink more money into equipment you don't like, : perhaps a RB-1080's in your future....? (If the GF let's ya anyway )

Good luck and happy listening 8)

Jason

[Aussie Geoff]

More echnical &quot;Stuff&quot;

Aud19,

Thanks for your comments. Your points on the power hungry nature of the 805s (and many speakers) are true indeed. For those that are interested - let me go a bit further.

Let me start with a simple explanation. Generally as a speakers impedance varies with frequency (which they all do to some extent) the amplifier needs to "follow" this by varying its current drive in inverse proportion to the change in impedance. The plain English version of this is if a speakers impedance drops from 8 ohms to 4 ohms, then the current sent to the speaker needs to double and therefore the power (e.g. 100w into 8 ohms becomes 200w into 4 ohms.) Equally for a doubling of impedance (8 ohms to 16 ohms) - then the current and power needs to halve.

To add to this complexity a speaker playing music will be handling many frequencies simultaneously, and therefore presenting a complex instantaneously changing load to the amplifier, varying in tiny fractions of thousanths of a second as it tracks the music waveform. The amplifier needs to track this instantaneously and linearly - with any variation colouring or compromising the sound in various ways. And to simplify this explanation I am leaving out the equally impacting subjects of capacitance, inductance and phase angle, each of which have a significant impact on the challenges that a speaker presents to an amplifier.

You will often see reviewers refer to speaker loads as "easy" or "difficult". Here they are referring to the combination of the range of variation in the impendence (it is not uncommon to see variaitons from 1.8 ohms to 42 ohms across the frequency range), phase angle, inductance and capacitance. You can even (rather scarily) get a "negative impedance load" as the voice coil in a spaker generates current as it moves agains the magnetic field. Speaker manufacturers of higher end speakers sometimes use very sophisticated crossovers with complex filters (e.g. 4th order Butterworth) and advanced speaker drivers which can create some very difficult loads indeed in the name of having a smooth frequency response, or taming the characteristics of some of the exotic speaker drivers used.

Lets consider a typical home theatre receiver such as one of the Denon 3800 series. Rated at around 120w per channel into 8 ohms and around 160w into 4 ohms, the amplifier has a power supply transformer of around 650-700w depending on the model. What does this tell us? Firstly the amplifier doesn't respond linearly to changes in impedance (i.e. it can't double power with halving impedance’s, especially at high volumes). Secondly the total power that can be delivered (650-700W in the transformer) isn't enough to drive all channels to full power at anything less than 8 ohms. And this is a recognised good quality receiver - many of the mass market ones simple can't put out more power into less than 8 ohms (my old Sony actually put out less power into 4 ohms than 8!). When presented with a rapidly varying complex speaker load (impedance etc) the receiver just can't follow the changes in dynamic load accurately, hence the sound being compromised in some way (which varies substantially depending on the speaker). So mass market home theatre recievers (in general) aren't good at driving difficult speaker loads, with the cheaper models (generally) being particularly compromised.

Now lets look at the Rotel RB-1080 which has a 800w transformer for its 2x 200W into 8 ohms channels and is rated at around 380W into 4 Ohms (at which point it flat lines still delivering around 380w into 2 ohms. The RB-1080 also has a recommended minimum speaker impedance of 4 ohms. This amplifier has much more current reserves for tracking difficult loads, especially at medium to loud volumes. It also has a very high damping factor (1000) and is able to track dynamic load changes well. Hence most people who add a RB-1080 to the pre-outs of their HT receiver for stereo are amazed at the dramatic improvement in quality, with the sound cleaning up, becoming more transparent, wider sound stage etc, even at quite low volumes. For speakers with minimum impendence of 4 ohms the RB-1080 will do very well. For speakers with very dynamic ranges of impedence, capacitance etc, it will still start to get challenges (though very much less than a typical home theatre reciever.)

Now there are higher end amplifiers (Krell, Parasound for example) and Rotel’s own RB-1090 with greater current capacity and more sophisticated curcuitry that are able to track dynamic loads even better than the Rotel, often being able to linearly double power all the way down to 2 ohms, while simultaneously dealing with demanding capacative and inductive loads. These amplifiers (for many people) will sound even better on speakers that have very demanding / dynamic loads. Some very high end speakers like the B&W 800 series range, Martin Logans etc can really benefit from a high current amplifier. Of course all this comes at a price - with these higher end amplifiers often being twice or more the price of the equivalent Rotel.... For most speakers with a little less demanding loads, the Rotel amplifiers like the RB-1080 and RMB-1075 and RMB-1095 are good enough (and great value ). Though I have to say, that for me the "extra" that a dedicated stereo amplified adds means that I would not want less than the RB-1080 for the front left and right.

Here are some links for people who wish to explore further.
Amplifier Power
FAQ
Secrets Speaker Primer
Speaker Impedance, Your Amplifier And You

Hopefully this has helped answer three questions:

• Why is it that adding Rotel amps makes such an improvement to the sound of my HT system?
• Why is it you can never have too much power?
• Why some speakers need very special amplifiers to drive them?

Geoff

[Bam!]

Wow Geoff very impressive. Precise, clear to the point.....well done....you must graduated 1st in your class at Rotel University for Theateramanics!!!

Thanks for that....that should be added to the sticky here......

:T

[Adz]

Two points:

1. I previously owned an Elite. Nice piece of equipment and very heavy as compred to other receivers, but if I were to describe in NON-TECHNICAL terms the difference between that and the Rotel separates it is simply the sheer force of the sound that is thrown at you when listening to the Rotel at the same or similar volume levels through the same speakers. I think that means that the Elite is a warmer sound but the Rotel has more clarity and depth at all levels and hits you with it like a freakin freight train (but please tell me otherwise).

2. When I put my system together, I had thought about the 1090/1095 but I would up with the 1080/1095 as it seemed to me and my dealer agreed that for movies it was better to have at least all the fronts (and even the surrounds if possible) at all the same power for a more homogenous(??) sound coming from all speakers. Does that statement have any merit?


Feel free to comment away on either or both of the above.

[Azeke]

Here is my quick two cents.

Adz,

Addressing point number 2, it sounds good in theory, having the 1095 & 1080 setup, that was my initially thought to maintain the same wattage for homogenous sounds, however the fronts are really what need the dedicated power. Once you calibrate the speakers I believe that it really doesn't matter, of course this is equipment dependent. The rears don't need as much dedicated power as the fronts.

I also believe as elaborated on earlier, that a dedicated 2 channel amp (be it Rotel, Bryston, etc.) will solve your mid-range issues. I also thought something was missing with my original RMB-1095 setup in 5.1, and then I added the RB-1080, which enhanced my midrange and highs to a different level. Also, you must be careful about your bass setup, too much bass can overwhelm your mid-range and make it seem non-existent.

I would at this point try different dedicated two channel amps in your home environment, this will perhaps provide the acoustical enchancements you need, of course as always your mileage may vary.

Good luck,

Azeke