How does the C2 compare to some newer pre/pro's

[dsmith999]

I have the C2 and was wondering how it compares to some of the newer pre/pro's in terms of sound quality. Currenty l do not have any HD audio sources.

[Peter Nielsen]

The C2 is top notch in the analog department. What you get with newer models (and Parasounds upcoming replacement for the C2) is HDMI capability and improved digital features...

If you don't have a need for HDMI and the latest HD source features, then the C2 is just fine. No reason to upgrade IMHO... Usually the need for HDMI is what forces people to leave the C2 behind (not for long though as a replacement *finally* is on the way from Parasound!)

Peter

[rocasi]

I should receive my new Integra DHC 9.9 and I will let you know my impressions. I am anxious to compare 2ch. performance between my C2 and the DHC 9.9 with a digital source (SPDIF or Optical).

[blownrx7]

Hey Rocasi,
Have you made the comparison between the Onkyo and the C2 yet?
This should be very interesting and I'm sure many would like to hear your experience.
TIA

[rocasi]

I will try to post something next week. I am very pleased with the Integra in all respects. For 7.1 and 5.1, the Integra has amazing audio. Movies are better than I had ever heard in my HT. For stereo listening, I am still fine tuning the Audyssey system. I had expected to not use Audyssey thinking that it would somehow detract from the 'purity' of the stereo sound. Boy was I mistaken. The Audyssey is really a great idea and has done a great job of taming my room modes. I have just one issue left to fix that I will comment on later.

This unit has met my expectations for sure.

[rocasi]

Well, I have some time on my hands so I will put some impressions down. I was waiting to finish the Audyssey setup before commenting on the unit, but might as well get to it now.

First, fit and finish is very nice and I have no complaints. It does not have the 'look' of a high end unit, looks more like your average receiver, lots of buttons on the front but that doesn't bother me too much. I was more interested in it's performance.

Prior to setting the unit up completely, I merely set it up to play stereo with only my HTPC optical input. Right off the bat, I noticed the Integra is a little noisier than the C2 with nothing playing. My Khorns have absolutely no 'noise' emanating from the tweeters and mid range with no source playing and the C2 hooked up. The 9.9 has a 'hiss', noticeable if I put my ear against the tweeters. It is not noticeable at more than a couple of feet from the speaker. My basic initial hookup was used as a basic way to compare Integra's "Direct" mode with the C2. Minimal processing, just DAC output to the amps. I went back and forth between the C2 and the Integra DHC 9.9 playing the same source material. My impression is that the Integra holds it's own very well in "Direct" stereo with minimal processing. Whatever differences were noted, were very minimal. So much so, that I was left wondering if I was really noticing something or was influenced by my expectations that the C2 'should' sound better.

I then went on to totally remove the C2 from my setup and install the Integra. System connection is a breeze for anyone familiar with HT setup. It was a joy to be able to just hook up my Blu Ray, HTPC and OTA HD Tuner with just one HDMI cable. The Integra has two HDMI outputs, one going to my projector and the second to my HTPC monitor. My old Denon DVD was originally hooked up via HDMI, but due to older HDMI firmware, it did not play well with the Integra. I ended up having to hook it up via component to get the HDMI switching to work properly. The Integra does up-convert any of your sources to HDMI if you wish.

I initially use the balanced connection between the Integra and my HALO amps. However, like the C2, I am fairly sure the balanced section is not truly balanced and also has a 6dB or so boost vs. the unbalanced RCA connection. This became a problem, as it did with the C2, during system calibration and the very efficient Khorns. I ended up going back to unbalanced connections in order to provide the processor the ability to attenuate the Khorns in order to match the other speakers, in my case the La Scala center and the Cornwall side and rear effects.

This was all the easy part. The Integra has so many features and settings that frankly I am still learning and tweaking. The manual is rather light on explanation and direction when it comes to details on settings. A prime example is the Audyssey EQ system. The manual barely explains how to run the setup. I have gone to AVSforums and it's wealth of information on the subject to learn how to properly run the setup. Audyssey thus far is proving to be amazing in it's ability to correct room anomalies. The one problem I am having now is that I had run all my calibrations with the microphone at ear level, as directed by all manuals and advice on forums. However, that has caused Audyssey to boost my high frequencies abnormally. I think I finally have that figured out.

Placing the Mic at ear level places it well below tweeter height on the Khorn and my other speakers that up off the ground. My guess is that the microphone is sensing a greatly reduced high range and compensating for it by boosting the highs. I am going to run another set of calibrations when I am home again, but this time with the microphone at tweeter height.

Even with this current problem, Audyssey had cleaned up low frequency problems in a very noticeable way. I originally figured I would not like Audyssey with my stereo listening and would just use the "direct" mode when listening to music. Boy, was I wrong. Audyssey has cleaned up my room mode problems and that has provided a sense of openness and definition in the music I had not heard before in that room. I am anxious to figure out the high frequency issue. Once I get that under control, I think I will be in music heaven....at least with my modest setup.

In the area of multichannel HD movies, the Integra blows the C2 away. Of course the C2 had to rely on the processing of my Blu Ray player and on analog inputs for the HD audio content. I now have the Blu Ray player sending bitstream to the Integra. The Integra decoding has been perfect and the picture is just as good as I had before. This unit has some ISF calibration features for video that i have yet to explore. I first want to get my audio totally setup before going on to video tweaking. HDMI switching works very well between my four sources and two outputs. It is so nice to have that all working as it should be. The Integra also shows you all the menu's , volume control, etc. on the HDMI output....a capability I had lacked before.

The remote for the Integra is very busy to say the least. I am using a secondary Parasound HALO remote to control all my systems now. That remote I believe was based on the Universal MX-700. AVSForums has a download for all the discrete codes for the Integra. This has allowed me to create programmed 'Favorites' buttons that make all the required selections with the touch of one button.

I can best summarize my impressions by saying that I am now selling my C2. I truly loved that unit, but since Parasound chose not to upgrade it to HDMI capability they pretty much forced me to move on to something else. I use my system about 50/50 between movies and simple audio. For movies, the Integra is a no brainer. It has every codec you can imagine and some i was not familiar with. For audio, the Integra meets my requirements for quality and performance. The unit may not meed the audio standard of some more discerning ears, but for me it is was very adequate. Particularly when you add Audyssey Multi EQ and Dynamic EQ into the mix. Bang for the buck, the Integra is an amazing piece of gear and does a very respectable job in the direct audio area. I think Parasound has made a mistake in either not upgrading our C1/C2 units or in delaying production of the follow on HDMI capable processors.

If you are wondering if the Integra is worth the money....it is!

[rocasi]

I spent this afternoon working on a final problem I was having with my Audyssey setup. I have tall Klipshorns and as a result, positioning the microphone at what is normally ear level caused Audyssey to boost my high frequencies too much. The sound was not natural. I finally figured that by putting the microphone at the height of the tweeters, I could get accurate readings.

I was finally ready to listen to the complete system. However, it needed one final tweak. I had a problem with imaging due to a difference in distance measurements between my mains. I verified and adjusted speaker postions, re-calibrated and presto! Perfect imaging.

I have been listening to all kinds of music since then and frankly I am blown away! The Audyssey system is simply amazing. I am hearing clarity in vocals and low frequency dynamics I had never heard in my HT.

I truly thought I would not like Audyssey. I had planned on listening to music in Direct mode only, no DSP. However, it is the other way around. I will not listen to music now without Audyssey taming my room problems.

I sure hope Parasound adds Audyssey to their upcoming unit. That will be incredible. I am thrilled I purchased this Integra. Whatever it may lack vs. the quality of higher priced gear, it more than makes up for in it's ability to properly tune your room.

Well, back to the music. I feel like i have a whole new system, speakers and all. The HALO amps sound so good with my Khorns! BTW, my C2 sold this afternoon.....no regrets.

[audioqueso]

Congrats! The Integra seems quite impressive to be on par and more than the C2. I'm glad you're enjoying it. Have fun.

[Chris D]

Congrats, rocasi, glad you're happy! :banana: I too am hoping the C3 has Audyssey, and for that matter, ALL the latest toys when it comes out. Some are just gadgetry, but some are useful, and while I don't find Audyssey as useful as DPL IIx, I still put it in the useful category.

[blownrx7]

Rocasi,
Thanks for the thorough evaluation.
Room equalization is definitely the wave of the future and really is the limiting factor in many sytems over and above the quality of the electronics.
Have fun exploring the rest of the Audyssey flexibility!

[rocasi]

Congrats, rocasi, glad you're happy! :banana: I too am hoping the C3 has Audyssey, and for that matter, ALL the latest toys when it comes out. Some are just gadgetry, but some are useful, and while I don't find Audyssey as useful as DPL IIx, I still put it in the useful category.

Chris, that's interesting. Do you find Audyssey does not do that much for you? In my room, I now find that turning Audyssey off makes a huge difference, and not a good one.

I am still amazed at what it does to clean up sound problems.....and I thought I had a reasonably tuned room.

[Chris D]

No, I definite DO find that Audyssey is useful in application. (unlike other things like the traditional "Party" DSP and such) My only point there was that while it makes a great improvement, I personally find use of DPLIIx to be more useful. The two used together is really great.

[rocasi]

Agreed. It will be something to see if the C3 comes out with Audyssey. That would be an amazing unit. I will miss the sound purity of the C2, but the Audyssey paired with the HDMI capabilities of the Integra make it a better deal for what I need.

[Kal Rubinson]

No, I definite DO find that Audyssey is useful in application. (unlike other things like the traditional "Party" DSP and such) My only point there was that while it makes a great improvement, I personally find use of DPLIIx to be more useful. The two used together is really great.

That's what makes horse-racing, as they used to say. I cannot recall finding any use for DPLIIx at all. I guess that's why these devices are becoming feature-bloated: They are trying to please everyone.

[Eric Carroll]

I cannot recall finding any use for DPLIIx at all.

Whereas I use DPLIIx and DD EX (basically the same) all the time. I have a 6.1 speaker config, and use it to matrix 5.1 sources, all the time.

[Eric Carroll]

I initially use the balanced connection between the Integra and my HALO amps. However, like the C2, I am fairly sure the balanced section is not truly balanced and also has a 6dB or so boost vs. the unbalanced RCA connection.

This statement has been made before and continues to puzzle me. The only claim I have ever seen is that the 9.8/9.9 has a balanced transmission line on output. This means a single ended DAC output, into a balanced line driver. If converted on the receiver side of the line back to single ended, you should expect and get a +6dB increase in line level. This is part of why balanced (XLR) and SE (RCA) line levels are defined differently for nominal levels (around 12 dB different if I recall correctly).

Balanced transmission line does not imply dual differential or quad DACs on output, or input through to output balanced design (which is understandable in an amp but which I have no idea what it means when you have a DSP in the path except maybe on the analog bypass).

Everything I can measure indicates the Integra does in fact use balanced line drivers and does not just use an XLR connector for a single ended driver.

Does anyone have any evidence to the contrary?