The Death of HDMI - HDBaseT™ technology?

[beden1]

I read about this first in an issue of Home Theater Magazine (I think?), and I had wanted to post about it at the time, but unfortunately, I just never got around to it. I misplaced the magazine article and just did an Internet search to get information relating to HDVaseT technology. A link to an announcement: http://www.hdbaset.org/

One of the primary issues that I have with the Classe SSP-800 is that it has HDMI handshake issues with the cable box. It takes a long time to stream the picture and sound when I switch channels. It's so bad for me and my family, that I do not have my cable box connected to the SSP-800 at all, and have to watch cable TV without using my system.

I have said earlier that I lost some equipment in another system due to a storm power surge. I lost my receiver in our family room, a Pioneer Elite 82TXS with 1.1 HDMI, which was one of the first versions of a receiver to offer HDMI. This unit worked flawlessly when changing cable stations, or sources, etc. As an example, you didn't even notice the time it took to change TV stations as it was virtually the same as if the TV was directly connected to the cable box.

I have been researching new HT receivers to replace my Pioneer Elite and have visited several high end dealers in my area to find out about the HDMI handshake problems, and if they have been corrected with the newer HDMI 1.3 and 1.4 versions. To my dismay, and from what I have been told by each dealer, is that the problems have become worse as the newer HDMI versions enable the streaming of even more information, and the more information causes more bottlenecks.

So, the Classe SSP-800 is not alone with it's HDMI handshake issues, and it appears that most if not all other newer processors/receivers are having the same problems.

The adoption of HDMI has been a complete mess, and compounded by the "upgraded" versions including the newest 1.4 to handle 3D. That's why this article had peaked my interest, as well as made me stop looking to replace my receiver and a new TV until the industry figures out what the direction is going to be, if they ever do.

In the mean time, I guess the industry just thinks it's OK for us to keep replacing our equipment every year, or pay extra for updated computer boards for the now current HDMI 1.4...when, the merry-go-round will continue with the introduction of the next latest and greatest technology (HDVaseT?) that may or may not work properly! :E

[Srrndhound]

One of the primary issues that I have with the Classe SSP-800 is that it has HDMI handshake issues with the cable box. It takes a long time to stream the picture and sound when I switch channels. It's so bad for me and my family, that I do not have my cable box connected to the SSP-800 at all, and have to watch cable TV without using my system.

You might want to mention this problem in the Questions 20/10 thread, and/or ask Classe about it directly. I've heard about it being slow to switch between HDMI sources, but this is a new issue (I may have missed it, of course).

In my own case the DirecTV box changes channels just as fast as when connected to the TV. No added delay at all.

Curious, which cable box are you using? If the TV has 2 HDMI inputs, you could try feeding the box to the TV, and bring the audio to the SSP on S/PDIF as a workaround.

[RebelMan]

I haven't noticed any switching issues changing channels with a TiVo HD DVR connected. IIRC sikoniko had some issues with his Comcast DVR and HDMI when it was connected to his SSP-800. I suspect you are using the same cable service and DVR that he was. Perhaps he can chime in with all the gory details.

[mjb]

I agree that HDMI is a complete total mess, but unfortunately its what we have at the moment, and the advantages (namely HD) outweigh the pain IMO. Most of my issues (apart from the time it takes to negotiate) have been solved with software updates on all components. Samsung had to come out and re-flash my TV, and each of the TV's HDMI ports as each one is independent, as my TV is old enough not to have an ethernet or USB port. The satellite receiver like wise, new firmware, and obviously the SSP too. Now, everything works for the most part, its just a case of being patient waiting for it to negotiate - and I'm hoping that the SSP-800 HDMI 1.4 upgrade board will go some way to addressing this.

[garak]

You might want to mention this problem in the Questions 20/10 thread, and/or ask Classe about it directly. I've heard about it being slow to switch between HDMI sources, but this is a new issue (I may have missed it, of course).

In my own case the DirecTV box changes channels just as fast as when connected to the TV. No added delay at all.

Curious, which cable box are you using? If the TV has 2 HDMI inputs, you could try feeding the box to the TV, and bring the audio to the SSP on S/PDIF as a workaround.

No issues with my DirecTV box either.

However, I suspect the issue is when switching between channels with different resolutions, i.e. going from a standard def channel 480p to a high def channel 1080i, etc.

I used to have a Comcast box and it didn't have a scalar, so switching between channels with different resolutions was very slow - and that was when connected to a Rotel 1069.

Beden, if your cable box has a scalar, try enabling it. That way all of the channels fed to your SSP-800 will be the same resolution, and shouldn't have to go through a handshake every time you change channels.

[Skyblue]

There have certainly been a number og issues with hdmi, from all over. However, I would say its down to a bad design of the copyright protection.

As I understand it, its basically DVI with audio and protection. Now, DVI works perfectly, but only for 1080p, not above. In probably not too many years, we will have 4k2k picture, and then I suppose hdmi won't cut it. Certainly DVI can't handle my 30" dell monitor which require a dual dvi cable.

I think I am going to ask Dave if he knows the horizon for the next upgrade. Perhaps they will wait 2-3 years or more to let people buy 3D first

[beden1]

I am using Comcast DVR box for cable. I didn't know it had a scaler function and will check it out when I get to Florida. It is however, slow switching between HD to HD stations as well. I don't like it, but if it's just me, I can live with it - if I have to! It's a different story when I'm with my family, and they keep asking if I can just connect it directly to the TV again, so it's not such a PITA whenever someone wants to change stations, or whatever.

I am more concerned with some of these major companies now trying to push yet another half baked technology down our throats, like this HDVaseT technology. From what the article I read said, new components will be launching within a year using this new connection. If successful, it will render our HDMI equipment outdated, including the SSP-800.

Isn't Sony the company that first started pushing HDMI in order to tighten their security on copyrights and to help curb illegal copying and downloads? Now it's Sony among others who are pushing something else.

[beden1]

I am more concerned with some of these major companies now trying to push yet another half baked technology down our throats.

Many similarities between the electronics manufacturers and the Democrats! :B

[garak]

Many similarities between the electronics manufacturers and the Democrats! :B

Wow...Or the Republicans and wars.

[Skyblue]

Who are these republicans and democrats that you speak of? Do they shove wars down peoples throat?

[Srrndhound]

At the risk of diverting this thread back to the topic... :roll:

I am more concerned with some of these major companies now trying to push yet another half baked technology down our throats, like this HDVaseT technology. From what the article I read said, new components will be launching within a year using this new connection. If successful, it will render our HDMI equipment outdated, including the SSP-800.

Has analog gone away? S/PDIF? No. The addition of HDBaseT does not mean HDMI will disappear. (Not that this wouldn't be a good thing...)

[beden1]

I was referring only to the Obama/Pelosi Democrats who have shoved every socialist program known to humanity down our throats, including telling us what to eat and drink.

I also hated our country starting another BS war just like Viet Nam. I am in sensed that our good men and women are being killed and wounded.

We need alternatives. Maybe Wettou should run for President. At least he won't be timid about telling them what he thinks! :T

[beden1]

At the risk of diverting this thread back to the topic... :roll:

Has analog gone away? S/PDIF? No. The addition of HDBaseT does not mean HDMI will disappear. (Not that this wouldn't be a good thing...)

I think it is intended to replace HDMI which is flawed. Maybe not a bad thing, but yet another change that quickly renders pricey electronics essentially obsolete.

[Skyblue]

I was referring only to the Obama/Pelosi Democrats who have shoved every socialist program known to humanity down our throats, including telling us what to eat and drink.

I think you are overreacting. I live in Scandinavia, and here, our right wing parties would be to the left of the democrats. In fact, THE freetrade party here are "friends" party with the democrats in the US. You know nothing about socialism

Personally I don't particularly like it either. The taxes are hideous, unless you know the tricks, which my accountant do. My effective taxrate is about 15% I think.

On the other hand, it did get me a free college education, healthcare and so forth. That is a good thing. Now if only they could provide it cheaper.

Incidentially, I have an economics degree as well and my best friend escaped from beyond the iron curtain, so I'm fairly aware of both the theoretical and practical flaws in socialism. My friend had to stand in line for hours everyday just to get milk. Now THAT is every kind of socialism down your throat.

[beden1]

I think you are overreacting. I live in Scandinavia, and here, our right wing parties would be to the left of the democrats. In fact, THE freetrade party here are "friends" party with the democrats in the US. You know nothing about socialism

Personally I don't particularly like it either. The taxes are hideous, unless you know the tricks, which my accountant do. My effective taxrate is about 15% I think.

On the other hand, it did get me a free college education, healthcare and so forth. That is a good thing. Now if only they could provide it cheaper.

Incidentially, I have an economics degree as well and my best friend escaped from beyond the iron curtain, so I'm fairly aware of both the theoretical and practical flaws in socialism. My friend had to stand in line for hours everyday just to get milk. Now THAT is every kind of socialism down your throat.

That's why I am not overreacting. Socialism= give them an inch and they will take a mile (and then you end up with communism or a dictatorship). Just look at how much money they have spent on socialist programs in just two short years!

But, back to the topic at hand!

[Skyblue]

That's why I am not overreacting. Socialism= give them an inch and they will take a mile (and then you end up with communism or a dictatorship). Just look at how much money they have spent on socialist programs in just two short years!

But, back to the topic at hand!

I do believe they also spend a fair amount on Wall Street. But lets agree that it is a complex issue

[RebelMan]

I am using Comcast DVR box for cable. I didn't know it had a scaler function and will check it out when I get to Florida. It is however, slow switching between HD to HD stations as well. I don't like it, but if it's just me, I can live with it - if I have to! It's a different story when I'm with my family, and they keep asking if I can just connect it directly to the TV again, so it's not such a PITA whenever someone wants to change stations, or whatever.

Yep, sounds exactly like what Dan was complaining about to me back then.

[sikoniko]

Wow...Or the Republicans and wars.

wasn't it the democrats that took us to vietnam? sorry.. had to say.. i think both parties are full of crooks...

[sikoniko]

I think you are overreacting. I live in Scandinavia, and here, our right wing parties would be to the left of the democrats. In fact, THE freetrade party here are "friends" party with the democrats in the US. You know nothing about socialism
.

Agreed. Europe is closer to keynesian economics than the US is.

[sikoniko]

Yep, sounds exactly like what Dan was complaining about to me back then.

The comcast cable box is a mess... turn it off but leave your display on and click menu. adjust the display to the highest available. the newer ones you can set to 1080i. exit the menu when you are done and turn your cable box back on. if that works correctly, it should do what another suggested and reduce the renogotiation of switching. I wouldn't count on it though.

I had problems with re-sync'in. it was one of the reasons I opted to switch to an htpc. I'd be watching hdtv and an sd commercial would come on and I'd have a dropout for a few seconds until it re-sync'd. switching from HD to HD was much improved with newer code. Are you still on pre-new dsp? upgrade to newer code and it is better. not perfect but better.

[garak]

wasn't it the democrats that took us to vietnam? sorry.. had to say.. i think both parties are full of crooks...

Ok, that's 1. But LBJ was a Texan...nuff said.

[Kevin P]

Ok, let's keep politics out of here, ok? It's bad enough having to watch all those stupid political ads on our HDTVs via our HDMI connections. Thanks.

As for what's wrong with HDMI? Encryption, fragile connector, encryption, non-standard and expensive cable/connectors, encryption, slow negotiation, encryption, limited cable length, firmware issues, and did I mention encryption?

Thanks to the greedy media companies, our audio/video signals are encrypted tighter than military top secrets. All in a half-assed attempt to curb piracy (which, of course is still alive and well). I think most of the slow negotation issues with HDMI is due to all the encryption handshaking and "tamper protection" they foist on us to make sure we're using our equipment the way they want us to.

HDBase-T will likely have the same issues, unless they re-engineer the handshake or make it faster somehow. Or they tell Hollywood to stuff it and do away with HDCP, but we know that'll never happen.

The biggest advantage of HDBase-T is that it'll use a more standard and ubiquitous cable type, saving cost since you can use inexpensive Cat5e/Cat6 cables with it. Chances are you already have these wires in the wall, and if you don't, they're a lot easier to pull through the wall. Plus, if it works over Ethernet, you could split the signal using a standard ethernet switch.

[Skyblue]

Ok, let's keep politics out of here, ok? It's bad enough having to watch all those stupid political ads on our HDTVs via our HDMI connections. Thanks.

As for what's wrong with HDMI? Encryption, fragile connector, encryption, non-standard and expensive cable/connectors, encryption, slow negotiation, encryption, limited cable length, firmware issues, and did I mention encryption?

Thanks to the greedy media companies, our audio/video signals are encrypted tighter than military top secrets. All in a half-assed attempt to curb piracy (which, of course is still alive and well). I think most of the slow negotation issues with HDMI is due to all the encryption handshaking and "tamper protection" they foist on us to make sure we're using our equipment the way they want us to.

And it certainly worked out well for them. Sometimes it takes more than a day from a blu ray is released until its available for download. Actually I think the dl version is faster than getting the blu ray from amazon.

And if you are stupid enough to get the bloddy disc, it takes forever to start a blu ray (even with oppe 83) while the downloaded version skips all of that and you can start immediately. In fact I usually watch my downloaded version of Firefly instead of the discs I eventually bought, simply because its so much faster. Also Firefly downloaded subs are better than the disc version.

HDBase-T will likely have the same issues, unless they re-engineer the handshake or make it faster somehow. Or they tell Hollywood to stuff it and do away with HDCP, but we know that'll never happen.

The biggest advantage of HDBase-T is that it'll use a more standard and ubiquitous cable type, saving cost since you can use inexpensive Cat5e/Cat6 cables with it. Chances are you already have these wires in the wall, and if you don't, they're a lot easier to pull through the wall. Plus, if it works over Ethernet, you could split the signal using a standard ethernet switch.

Ethernet should be fine actually. If it can do tcp/ip with 1gb/s we should be fine for the forseable future. Sounds good. Now if only they could just stream it directly to my disc.

[beden1]

Ok, let's keep politics out of here, ok? It's bad enough having to watch all those stupid political ads on our HDTVs via our HDMI connections. Thanks.

As for what's wrong with HDMI? Encryption, fragile connector, encryption, non-standard and expensive cable/connectors, encryption, slow negotiation, encryption, limited cable length, firmware issues, and did I mention encryption?

Thanks to the greedy media companies, our audio/video signals are encrypted tighter than military top secrets. All in a half-assed attempt to curb piracy (which, of course is still alive and well). I think most of the slow negotation issues with HDMI is due to all the encryption handshaking and "tamper protection" they foist on us to make sure we're using our equipment the way they want us to.

HDBase-T will likely have the same issues, unless they re-engineer the handshake or make it faster somehow. Or they tell Hollywood to stuff it and do away with HDCP, but we know that'll never happen.

The biggest advantage of HDBase-T is that it'll use a more standard and ubiquitous cable type, saving cost since you can use inexpensive Cat5e/Cat6 cables with it. Chances are you already have these wires in the wall, and if you don't, they're a lot easier to pull through the wall. Plus, if it works over Ethernet, you could split the signal using a standard ethernet switch.

Thanks for the explanation. Encryption was the word I was searching for. The problem will be that the processors like the SSP-800, the blu-ray players and the TVs will not have the needed ethernet connections, unless we have to buy another board? And, I doubt most manufacturers will have any upgrade paths for existing units.

[beden1]

The comcast cable box is a mess... turn it off but leave your display on and click menu. adjust the display to the highest available. the newer ones you can set to 1080i. exit the menu when you are done and turn your cable box back on. if that works correctly, it should do what another suggested and reduce the renogotiation of switching. I wouldn't count on it though.

I had problems with re-sync'in. it was one of the reasons I opted to switch to an htpc. I'd be watching hdtv and an sd commercial would come on and I'd have a dropout for a few seconds until it re-sync'd. switching from HD to HD was much improved with newer code. Are you still on pre-new dsp? upgrade to newer code and it is better. not perfect but better.

I did set my cable box to 1080i so I guess it's not going to get any better. Comcast is now supposedly using the same box that we have had here in PA for a couple of years. Maybe that will help also, but they ran out of them the last time I was there.

But, as Comcast is the largest cable provider in the US, I would think that any electronics manufacturer would make sure that their units worked with whatever Comcast is using?

I have not upgraded my SSP-800 since I bought it with the single board, except for the original software update. I'm going to bring the unit back with me after Christmas and have the dealer do the HDMI 1.4 upgrade and anything else that is available.

[Kevin P]

And if you are stupid enough to get the bloddy disc, it takes forever to start a blu ray (even with oppe 83) while the downloaded version skips all of that and you can start immediately. In fact I usually watch my downloaded version of Firefly instead of the discs I eventually bought, simply because its so much faster. Also Firefly downloaded subs are better than the disc version.

The only thing DRM accomplishes is to make the legitimate product inferior to the pirated version. So, the more crap they foist on us, the more incentive we have to pirate it to begin with. :twisted:

iTunes has gone DRM-free, why not BluRay, HDMI, etc?

[Skyblue]

The only thing DRM accomplishes is to make the legitimate product inferior to the pirated version. So, the more crap they foist on us, the more incentive we have to pirate it to begin with. :twisted:

iTunes has gone DRM-free, why not BluRay, HDMI, etc?

I actually think Apple got it just right. Download a movie for a couple of dollars, (not entirely sure what the price is, since apple tv doesnt really work here. At least all my friends have imported us versions to access the us content).

That is what we need. Simple, affordable downloads. All this DRM is fine, but when it results in the paying customer gettting an inferior product then perhaps its time for a rethink of the business model.

[wettou]

The only thing DRM accomplishes is to make the legitimate product inferior to the pirated version. So, the more crap they foist on us, the more incentive we have to pirate it to begin with. :twisted:

iTunes has gone DRM-free, why not BluRay, HDMI, etc?

The studios want to double and triple dip

Look at a movie like Terminator 2

First dip: VHS 1991

Second dip: DVD - 1992

Third dip: DVD - The Ultimate Edition 2000

Fourth dip: Exdtended Version 2003

Fifth: Blu-ray - 2006

Sixth dip: DVD - 2009

Seventh Dip: Skynet Edition Blu-ray - 2009

How many more version do we need :B

I want a Kaleidescape but I refuse to pay $16,000 for a 6TB server!!!

[sikoniko]

The only thing DRM accomplishes is to make the legitimate product inferior to the pirated version. So, the more crap they foist on us, the more incentive we have to pirate it to begin with. :twisted:

iTunes has gone DRM-free, why not BluRay, HDMI, etc?

well.. and it also makes hurts the people that are honest. As we have noted, the people who pirate bypass it anyways...

[sikoniko]

I want a Kaleidescape but I refuse to pay $16,000 for a 6TB server!!!

Windows Media Center w/ MyMovies will accomplish the same thing for a lot less money.

[Skyblue]

I want a Kaleidescape but I refuse to pay $16,000 for a 6TB server!!!

Well, get a mac mini or a ion/atom based pc, and a usb drive (or several). I have 10 tb in my main rig and can access it from my pc in the living room. With a bluetooth dinovo mini, its probably not as elegant, but combined cost is probablt around $1000, depending on the number of disks you want.

Oh and media player classic hc plays everything in one free download

[sikoniko]

Windows Media Center w/ MyMovies will accomplish the same thing for a lot less money.

This looks better than the kalaidescape to me..

http://www.vidabox.com/vautomation2.php

[wettou]

Well, get a mac mini or a ion/atom based pc, and a usb drive (or several). I have 10 tb in my main rig and can access it from my pc in the living room. With a bluetooth dinovo mini, its probably not as elegant, but combined cost is probablt around $1000, depending on the number of disks you want.

Oh and media player classic hc plays everything in one free download

Ok the problem with the mac mini is ripping Blu Ray movies to the hard drive?

[Tweir]

The studios want to double and triple dip

Look at a movie like Terminator 2

First dip: VHS 1991

Second dip: DVD - 1992

Third dip: DVD - The Ultimate Edition 2000

Fourth dip: Exdtended Version 2003

Fifth: Blu-ray - 2006

Sixth dip: DVD - 2009

Seventh Dip: Skynet Edition Blu-ray - 2009

How many more version do we need :B

I want a Kaleidescape but I refuse to pay $16,000 for a 6TB server!!!

what about the laser disc version that would make eight dips...

[Skyblue]

Ok the problem with the mac mini is ripping Blu Ray movies to the hard drive?

Dont they come with a blu ray drive? Else, get a pc for that. You'll still be way ahead financially.

[Stevebez]

I bet 85% of the cost of the new processors is manufacturing the infrastructure to deal with HDMI... what a complete and utter waste of time.

Why not go ethernet from the start? All the Processor is, is a dressed up PC dedicated to sound processing etc... all the work has been done on perfecting the network platform 1TBase-T should be ample. integrating a processsor into that platform would be done in the wink of an eye and at almost no cost as the technological infrasture already exists.

What does HDMI have over ethernet? Nothing as far as I can tell... the encryption could still be easiliy applied, so thats no excuse.

I don't get it ... I guess working out who makes money out of HDMI, may provide a clue as to why it exists..... :huh:

EDIT: as it is I run my HDMI over a CAT5 convertor anyway!

[Skyblue]

I bet 85% of the cost of the new processors is manufacturing the infrastructure to deal with HDMI... what a complete and utter waste of time.

Why not go ethernet from the start? All the Processor is, is a dressed up PC dedicated to sound processing etc... all the work has been done on perfecting the network platform 1TBase-T should be ample. integrating a processsor into that platform would be done in the wink of an eye and at almost no cost as the technological infrasture already exists.

What does HDMI have over ethernet? Nothing as far as I can tell... the encryption could still be easiliy applied, so thats no excuse.

I don't get it ... I guess working out who makes money out of HDMI, may provide a clue as to why it exists..... :huh:

EDIT: as it is I run my HDMI over a CAT5 convertor anyway!

One advantage though, the slim connector is much better suited for small units like cameras, iphones and so on. In fact the slim macbook air that came out last year didn't have an ethernet connection because the connector was too big for it.

[Stevebez]

True ... although rather come out with a thin ethernet plug than rewrite everything...