Question about Parasound

**Peter Nielsen** · 05 April 2007, 08:22 Thursday

Originally posted by Nsomaira

My question is since I am planning on a 7 channel setup, is it recommended to add the A21 Amp.

Yes. The A21 is a better amp than the A51. Ideally, it should power the left+right fronts.

Depending on your budget and speaker selection, consider these amplifier combinations:

(2)JC1+A51 (ideal for stereo listening)
A21+A51
A21+A52 (bigger amp for stereo listening)
A51+A23 (smaller amp for rear surrounds)
A23+A52 (small amps)

Peter

**Jesse111** · 05 April 2007, 08:52 Thursday

Go with option 1 as noted below and you'll never have to ask yourself "what if?"

Originally posted by Peter Nielsen

(2)JC1+A51 (ideal for stereo listening)
Peter

Speakers are subjetive, looks and sound both.

I love the look of the B&W 800D. Some folks don't. It's performance is incredible. To some it's not. In the end I prefer the Magnepan 20.1. Looks are secondary to me. Performance is always first place without question. Fortunately, the maggies are sweet looking sexy ladies.

I have found that most folks who put looks at the top of there priority list often love the way a speaker sounds when they like the looks. If they don't like the looks then it doesn't sound good to them. Psycho-accoustics.

But none of that matters. If you like it, then it's right for you. Auditioning is the only way you'll truly know what speaker is right for you though. Some speaker look different in in real life versus pictures (Galo Reference 3 for instance). Associated gear is relevent to performance, and I can tell you one thing as I have recently found out, the JC1 will produce astounding bass. If you want to have one of the best bass amps in the world, get the JC1. For mids and highs get the JC1's. If you enjoy quality 2 channel music, you might seriously consider the JC1's.

**huricaneherb** · 05 April 2007, 10:17 Thursday

website correction

I think that you should audition the legacy Audio line, I have a pair of the focus's and they are awsome. I push them with the C2 and A51 combo and Monster M2.4 biwire, any instrument played through them sounds like a live performance. I auditioned an abundance of different speakers before purchasing these and for the money these babies are phenominal. Check the line at legacy-audio.com and go audition them you will here for yourself. Review in Stereophile: http://www.legacy-audio.com/reviews/11596_eprint.pdf

**Nsomaira** · 06 April 2007, 10:33 Friday

Thank you for the advice guys,

I will go with 2 JC1 and the A51 for amps. But regarding speakers i am still not sure what to go with. The Legacy Audio speakers look good also but still need to do some more research on them

**Chris D** · 06 April 2007, 20:01 Friday

Nsomaira, welcome to the Guide and Club Parasound! :banana: Nice stuff you're buying.

Asking what speakers work best with any particular amps, Parasound or otherwise, is quite the broad, difficult question, as you can likely understand. As you're considering Klipsch, I can give you feedback that my all-Klipsch setup with C1, A21 and A51 amps does work well. I realize, though, that it's not the "ultimate" setup, but it works great for now. Maggies are probably my ultimate.

What speakers would be best would depend on your budget.

As far as various Halo amp setups, short of having seven JC-1's (or more if, like Peter, you bi-amp) I would next love to use three JC-1's for the front three speakers (being the most important ones) and two A21's for the side and rear surrounds. That would work great with three Maggie 20.1's for front speakers, and some smaller Maggies for surrounds.

**Peter Nielsen** · 07 April 2007, 15:32 Saturday

Originally posted by Chris D

As far as various Halo amp setups, short of having seven JC-1's (or more if, like Peter, you bi-amp) I would next love to use three JC-1's for the front three speakers (being the most important ones) and two A21's for the side and rear surrounds. That would work great with three Maggie 20.1's for front speakers, and some smaller Maggies for surrounds.

Some things worth pointing out: Maggies need to be purchased in pairs. Moreover, the MG20.1 and MG3.6 are asymmetrical. It is possible to make a custom mount and install a MG3.6 sideways (as one user on the AVS forum did), otherwise a pair of 3.6 or 20.1 will work great as center speaker. Maggies new CCR center speaker should be out soon too.

More than 2 JC-1s, heat will quickly become a heat problem. Ideally, the amps should be installed in a separate room, or quiet custom cooled closet. 3 JC-1 and 2 A21 will need approx 10,000 BTUs of cooling, so no small fans will do...

Peter

**Jesse111** · 07 April 2007, 17:12 Saturday

Peter, what do you think if he used only low bias full time to reduce the heat issue? However in my case, heat is not an issue. I'm only using two JC1's and I have a large enough room with very quiet central air. My listening sessions mostly only last 1 to 3 hours anyway.

**Jesse111** · 07 April 2007, 17:27 Saturday

Nsomaira, what exactly is your speaker budget? Do you like the looks of the B&W 803D? To my ears B&W has one of the best overall sound capabilities for any type of music. I owned the 800D and depending on your budget, I can tell you it is phenominal when setup correctly. B&W make a complete surround system for just about any budget. Personally I think they are a very unique and beautiful looking speaker. Velodyne DD subs integrate very well with them as well.

Like Chris D it is hard to give advice on speakers. Too subjective. But for my ears, I prefered B&W over the sound of Von Schweikert and Vienna Acoustic to mention just a few. I found VS a bit too detailed and sterile and VA had a sexy presentation with live female performers like Diana Krall and Norah Jones but not detailed enough and very sloppy bass for my taste. Wilson Watt Puppy 7's are incredible in the bass but fatigued me in the highs after less than an hour. The Wilson Sophia is less dynamic but easier to listen to. In the end I found the B&W 800D to be the most accurate, listenable speaker I'd ever heard as regards cone and dome style speakers.

I could live happily ever after with the 800D. And I was planning on doing just that. I had to sell mine but after returning to the Maggie 20.1 I have to say that in the end the Magnepan 20.1 is the ultimate speaker to me. The look of the Magnepan leaves people stunned when they see them. It's fun showing them off to friends and aquantances for the first time. Questions and disbelief is the usual course that follows. But when they hear them... they are awed.

**Nsomaira** · 07 April 2007, 18:34 Saturday

Thanks again guys for the advice,

Well my speaker budget is around $15,000 but can increase it a bit if it was something worth it.

I am seriously currently considering to go for the KEF reference speakers, I think it’s because my first speakers that I bought where KEF and it was 12 years ago :P

I just checked the maggie website and honstly those speakers look very tempting

**Chris D** · 07 April 2007, 19:19 Saturday

Peter, that's true, it's usually difficult to use ANY speaker manufacturer and use identical speakers for all three of the front speakers. So often they're sold in pairs. (not always, but very often) This is quite unfortunate, as three identical front speakers works very, very well if the rest of your setup accommodates. (such as using an acoustically perforated projection screen so you can put a full-size center channel behind it)

Sometimes what you have to do, if you want 3 identical speakers, is buy two pairs, and then sell one single speaker. You're usually not the only person to be thinking of doing this, so you shouldn't have a problem finding someone to buy half of the remaining set. I'd venture a guess that if you were to sell a single brand new 20.1, even, you'd find a buyer within a few months. Better yet, find somebody that will purchase half of a pair before you even buy them.

The "directional" part you talk about does present somewhat of a problem, but as you point out, can be worked around.

**Peter Nielsen** · 08 April 2007, 08:39 Sunday

Originally posted by Chris D

The "directional" part you talk about does present somewhat of a problem, but as you point out, can be worked around.

Chris, the problem is that the tweeter is placed asymmetrically on the 20.1 and 3.6s. The left and right hand speakers are physically different (one is a mirror image of the other, and vice versa)! For the 20.1, this means that if you place the speaker in the center, the tweeter will be approx 12" off center. This discrepancy is not subtle, it is quite audile, and is not a working solution. Using both the speakers as center speaker in a V-configuration works great though.

Placing a 3.6 horizontally is a possible solution (custom mount requied), but this option should only be used if an acoustically transparent screen is not available. Placing a 20.1 horizontally is probably not very smart. That money is better spent on an acoustically transparent screen so that a pair of 3.6s can be used in vertical position behind the screen.

Using a single 20.1 as center speaker is IMHO total waste of money. A pair of 3.6s will perform the same or better, at a lower cost (3.6=$4600 vs 20.1=$12000).

Using 3 pairs of MG3.6s for a 5 channel setup will get you an amazing system at reasonable cost. (Of course six 20.1s will be even better, and may be preferred for multi channel music if the budget allows. However, for HT use, the cost difference can't be justified).

BTW, don't let the size difference of the 3.6 and 20.1 lure you into believing that the 20.1s are more powerful, because they're NOT. Both speakers have the SAME power rating. The difference is that the 20.1 has a more detailed mid-range and better bass extension.

Peter

**JamesE** · 08 April 2007, 09:08 Sunday

$15,000 budget for speakers—I shouldn’t even be commenting here but, here goes anyway. I have mixture of different speakers. My mains are Maggie 1.6’s. I like them a lot. I once heard a demo of Maggie 3.6’s along side B&W 801’s. The guy didn’t tell me what I was supposed to be listening for. He played the B&Ws 1st. Then the Maggies. The Maggies had a sound distinct sound. They did not have pinpoint imaging. Could have been the way they were setup. But when it came to reproducing the snare drum the Maggies were fantastic. The difference between the two speakers was night and day. I believe the difference between the two is caused by the ability of the Maggies to produce extremely fast transient response. Matching a sub to Maggies is difficult for this reason. You need a sub with a low Q. Infinite Baffle subs are ideal for this reason. I really like B&W 801’s. At this price point it comes down to personal preference.

You are trying to combine listening to 2 channel music with watching movies. There are distinct differences between these two. With 2 channel music the room contributes to the sound field with a higher reverberation time. Dedicated home theaters have a much lower reverberation and the speakers and the internal processing reproduce the sound field.

At your price point, what you do with room acoustics is going to make more difference than the difference in the speakers. If you haven’t already read this thread over at AVS, then I suggest you read it. Although Ethan gets a lot of shit from people, I think his perspective is right on.

The Vandersteen 3A’s are another speaker to look at. They require less power than the Maggies. They don’t have the looks of some of the other speakers but for years they have been a reference by which other speakers were judged.

I wish I had your budget.

**Jesse111** · 08 April 2007, 10:34 Sunday

I've toyed with Maggies for over a year total and in my experience pinpoint imaging is realized with the 20.1's by on axis toe in, tweeters inside and good wall distant positioning.

Most dealers in my experience do an atrocious hack job setting up systems. They simply don't seem to have much idea of correct placement, angles and phase alignment. When I auditioned my 800D's I had to reposition the entire system. When I was done it sounded great. I went back the next week and everything was back in it's improper place due to a "better look". What a shame.

**Nsomaira** · 08 April 2007, 13:42 Sunday

Thanks James for the advice, basically I am setting up my "Private Room" and that is why I am looking for a system that would play great for both 2 channel and home theater. I love Parasound work and been following their progression through out the years and that’s why I am getting a Parasound setup :P

But for speakers I am really indifferent and to find the perfect match between movie watching and music listening I am posting here to take advantage of the experience from the community here.

**JamesE** · 08 April 2007, 13:55 Sunday

How big is your room? I have done the same thing. My feeling is that there is a tremendous amount of music in all movies. I'm too attention deficit to sit down and listen to music. After having sat down and just listened to music, I’ve found that most other listening to music is just background noise. :E

My link didn’t come through before. Here it is again.

**Chris D** · 08 April 2007, 14:27 Sunday

(sorry, guys, to have partially hijacked the thread)

Peter - Ah, I had thought that the solution for using an asymmetric speaker as a center channel was to place it horizontally, although for a tall speaker you could be making the problem worse. You make a good point about using a pair of speakers in this situation for the center channel, which I've definitely thought about, and even seen in some applications. I'd have to wonder, though, if you did use a pair of speakers for the center, if they're of any appreciable size, if you're make that channel too large. Ideally, you do want the center channel directionalized, and centrally located to the center of your video screen, where the video dialogue occurs, not spread out over the front wall.

Originally posted by Peter "The Godfather" Nielsen

Placing a 3.6 horizontally is a possible solution (custom mount requied), but this option should only be used if an acoustically transparent screen is not available.

Just to clarify, did you mean here "If an acoustically transparent screen IS available"? Or are you talking about placing the 3.6 horizontally underneath the video display?

Originally posted by Peter "the Godfather" Nielsen

Using 3 pairs of MG3.6s for a 5 channel setup will get you an amazing system at reasonable cost. (Of course six 20.1s will be even better, and may be preferred for multi channel music if the budget allows. However, for HT use, the cost difference can't be justified).

BTW, don't let the size difference of the 3.6 and 20.1 lure you into believing that the 20.1s are more powerful, because they're NOT. Both speakers have the SAME power rating. The difference is that the 20.1 has a more detailed mid-range and better bass extension.

Peter

Good info, thanks. I'd love to have EIGHT 20.1's for a full 7-channel surround setup, but you're talking $48,000. Wow. :E I can definitely say that's more than my budget will ever allow, regardless of how much money I realistically may ever make. Now eight 3.6's at about $18,000--that's still a good amount, but may be do-able. I haven't heard a setup like this, but I would imagine that it would be pure heaven, and very, very hard to beat in performance.

**Chris D** · 08 April 2007, 14:50 Sunday

Nsomaira, getting this thread back to you and your questions, you were talking about roughly $15,000 for a speaker budget. Since we've been talking about Magnepan here, and as you can tell, several of us are Maggie fans, they could be a good solution for you. They're great for home theater, but excel with 2-channel. Some options there:

1. Go with eight Magnepan 3.6 speakers for awesome performance, and seamless equality in all channels. Two speakers for center channel. $18,000. (sell one and use a single center channel as discussed, and you're about $15,700)
2. Take one step down in models and go with eight 1.6's. Only $6,900.
3. Do a mixture of the two and do four 3.6's across the front speakers, four 1.6's for surrounds. About $12,500.

If I were making a speaker purchase myself right now, these are the things I'd entertain. I'd also look at Martin Logans, as they'll also give good performance, but from electrostats. You'd be able to pick models to fit your budget.

Any of those would sound superb with Parasound amps, as long as you're providing enough power.

**Peter Nielsen** · 08 April 2007, 16:01 Sunday

Originally posted by Chris D

Or are you talking about placing the 3.6 horizontally underneath the video display?

That's what I'm talking about. It's not ideal, but for us that don't have an acoustically transparent screen, that's the only way to go if we wanted to use a 3.6 for center.

The new CCR center speaker is of course an excellent solution. Unfortunately it cannot be bi-amped, which means it won't work well for us Boz owners. (With a JC-1 you would not need to look futher. The CCR is probably an excellent center speaker!)

Originally posted by Chris D

I'd love to have EIGHT 20.1's for a full 7-channel surround setup, but you're talking $48,000.

That's more of a "visual" dream than a practical possibility. In order to fit eight of those speakers into a room, the room needs to be really big. When the room is big enough to accommodate eight 20.ls, you will probably find out that the 20.1 will not be powerful enough...

Remember, I can bottom out my 20.1 in a 22x15' room. The Maggies are extremely inefficient and don't play loud even when you push them to the limit with JC-1s. In a really large room, it is questionable if they can achive the desired sound level.

My dream right now is to move my MG20.1s to a separate listening room and power them with a JC-1/JC-2 combo and get more efficient speakers for my HT setup, and speakers that are less obtrusive, i.e. don't take up a lot of floor space. (Ideally I would like the speakers to be totally hidden like in a real theatre).

Peter

**Peter Nielsen** · 08 April 2007, 16:12 Sunday

Originally posted by Chris D

1. Go with eight Magnepan 3.6 speakers for awesome performance, and seamless equality in all channels.

How big is the room? Are the 2 extra channels needed, or is 5 channels enough?

I used to have 7.2, but downgraded to 5.2 as I judged my 22x15' room to be too small to benefit from the rear surrounds, and deleted them.

Remember that when a dipole speaker (=Maggie) is used as surround, it is extremely difficult to pinpoint the speaker location and where the sound is coming from.

With regular speakers (non-dipoles), or in a really large room that puts significant distance between the speakers, the 5/7 channel difference may be obvious, but with dipoles in a relatively small room the difference is so subtle that you have to question if the rear surrounds are needed at all (which is what I did, and I don't miss them).

Peter

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