JC-1s for sale

[Peter Nielsen]

The summer heat is killing me :B

http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?p=270243#post270243

I'm going to give digital amplification a try....

Thanks,
Peter

[kfr01]

Wow. Amazing price.

Going Hypex or some other solution? I hear Hypex-based solutions are becomming very popular with Maggie owners.

[Peter Nielsen]

Probably the PS Audio GCA-500 which is based on Bang & Olufsen technology.

Peter

[kfr01]

Wow. That GCA amp looks like quite the beast. Given your setup, something like that seems pretty smart. Are you planning to demo one soon?

Quite a change, though; giving up that 25w of class a for the digital amp technology.

I can only imagine the heat all those JC-1's throw off. My single hca3500 pumps off heat like a space heater....

[nicholtl]

WHAT? Peter is parting with his JC-1's? Either...

1) Hell has frozen over.

or

2) Hell has frozen over.

[mitch57]

Peter,

I would really like to hear your opinions on this amp. I have a very good authorized dealer very close to me that I might consider purchasing from if your reviews are positive. Since I am still without my Halo A51 and don't see much hope in getting the situation resolved this might be a good alternative for me.

Keep us posted on what you decide to purchase and what your impressions are.

[blownrx7]

Peter selling his JC-1's? SAY IT AIN'T SO!

Peter,
You have another alternative. Move up north!

What will we do now when our non-audiophile friends question our sanity for spending all this time, money and energy on this hobby?? We were always able to point to your NINE JC-1's and say: "But look at this guy and his system".

Oh, the pain! The pain! Who will we look up to now that the Monument to the JC-1 is being dismantled??? ;x(

Peter, don't just think about yourself on this one. Think of your chiropractor. Think of the monetary loss he will experience due to the sudden downturn in back-related injuries due to lifting JC-1's. Think of the power company and all their shareholders. Who will absorb all that extra energy that your JC-1's sucked up?

Peter, have you really thought this through? What about all that empty space in your equipment racks? You will be forced to fill it up with countless more expenditures. Can you really afford to do this? :cry:

[slayer]

The PS Audio amp sure sounds nice though. I'm curious if it's as good as they are claiming. Any reviews of it anywhere?

[Peter Nielsen]

Well, if I don't find buyers, I can always solve the problem by trading up to a new house that can accommodate the JC-1s. :roll: :B :T

That's really the culprit anyway. I really count on moving into a bigger home in 3-4 years. That's why I don't want to unnecessarily pour time and money onto extensive modifications that are bound to be worthless to the next owner (and possibly even require restoration before sale. Urgh!)

Peter

[blownrx7]

Sell the house, keep the amps

Peter,
How about relocating the amps to a separate room? Is that feasible?
The thought of "living" with the amps (yeah, some of us only dream of being in this predicament... :W ) is not such a bad one if you also factor in depreciation.
I'm betting digital amps will depreciate significantly faster than the JC-1's ever will. I think the JC's have depreciated to a relatively stable point - yeah, maybe they'll go down a few more hundred in the next 1-3 yrs but they are not suddenly going to lose 60-75% of their value like I expect digital amps to do.
The fact of the matter is that the digital amps are enjoying a significantly bigger price/cost margin that will not last - all because they are the latest and greatest (debatable but that's besides the point) - competition and volume will take care of that in short order.
Just some things to consider...

[Peter Nielsen]

How about relocating the amps to a separate room? Is that feasible?

That would be the ultimate solution. Unfortunately it's not possible in my current home, unless I put the amps in the garage - which again won't work since the garage can be up to 100F in the summer time.

The only viable solution is to mount the amps into the wall and arrange for some effective cooling solution. At first this may sound trivial, but it's not. The ceiling is sloped (look at my avatar), and I only have 5' of height to play with when the depth of the amps/racks is taken into consideration. This means I will have to place the amps in three separate racks. I will need to cut up three holes in the wall (I can't go with one big hole due to roofing studs). There is a hot crawlspace behind the wall, so I will need to build a heat insulated and air-conditioned closet for the racks. Getting sufficient air conditioning that is not too loud will be another problem... Not an easy task.

Peter

[Chris D]

You guys are hilarious.

Peter, you gotta do what you gotta do, man, and nobody can fault you for it. (although we'll sure try, of course) I'm curious about your thoughts on digital technology in general--do you feel that it's stable and proven enough for a long-term solution for high-end audio?

[kfr01]

I'm curious about your thoughts on digital technology in general--do you feel that it's stable and proven enough for a long-term solution for high-end audio?

I'm not Peter, but I demoed a 200x2 Hypex amp with a premium hypex power supply in my system for a week.

I feel it is definitely stable and proven enough for a long-term solution for high-end audio.

The sound quality was very good. Tight bass, great separation, highs, etc. For a guy that needs >2 channels, has power concerns, space concerns, whatever; digital makes all the sense in the world. You arguably give up no (significant) audible sonics. You gain: no heat concerns, no space concerns, reduced power concerns.

On the other hand, for me, a guy that does not need low heat, space, etc.; what's the motivation? The digital amps are still pretty expensive compared to what's available on the used a/ab market.

But, back to my original point, I think digital is ready. Stereophile has liked the latest digital technology they've gotten their hands on (see their review of the 200w Hypex powered Channel Island's audio mono blocks). ICE powered stuff gets great reviews too.

To my knowledge, nuforce is the only "mainstream digital" technology that still has funky problems like large amounts of radio interference...

[ColaBoy]

http://www.midgardaudio.no -> "Products" -> "Oberon X.1"

[Peter Nielsen]

I agree Karl.

It might be worth noting that there are several completely different solutions when it comes to digital amps. For instance, the HYPEX solution still uses a traditional power supply with toroidal transformer and capacitors. PS Audio's ICE-based amps are factory configured for a specific voltage and don't contain a regular transformer at all. (Good for your back and rack budget. Bad for resale.)

blownrx7 is absolutely right when he mentions depreciation. Digital amps will continue to improve, and when a new, better, models come out the old ones will be worth almost nothing. High-end solid state amps will definitely hold their value better.

Personally, my concern with digital amps is longevity. Will the amp run flawlessly for 10 years? Thinking about VCRs of the 90's and the PWM power supply they use: A large percentage stopped working or got problems within 5 years (usually due to bad capacitors). Or just think about computer power supplies. MANY will not last for 5 years... Will the digital amps (also PWM based) suffer from the same problems? Will the $10,000 PS Audio amp start sounding like crap or break down in 5-10 years when the capacitors get old? (They only offer a 3 year warranty). We don't know, but history tells us this is certainly a risk factor. (Note: This might be less of an issue than what it is with other PSUs. The amps are supposed to run cold. VCR and computer PSUs run hot, which contributes to a much shorter life).

The reasons why I got the JC-1s in the first place are sound quality, longevity, and the high resale value. All extraordinarily good! Too bad I can't keep them.

Oh, and I should probably mention that bi-amping and the DEQX really help tremendously to allow me downgrade the amps. The amps don't need handle the whole frequency range and the DEQX can correct any anomalies in the amp's frequency curve. If I was using just a C2 and a pair of JC-1s to power my Maggies, I possibly would be disappointed in the digital amp. However, with my current setup, the amps simply don't play that big role any more... Heck, with digital amps I may even consider modifying my Maggies for tri-amping!

Peter

[kfr01]

Peter: This is off-topic, but you seem to give a strong endorsment to the DEQX package. I'm considering the same (or Tact).

When I built my speakers, I built an external crossover and wired the cabinet with three sets of binding posts so it would be very easy for me to go active / 2-way / 3-way.

So, you're saying it is worth it, eh? :-)

[Peter Nielsen]

Peter: This is off-topic, but you seem to give a strong endorsment to the DEQX package. I'm considering the same (or Tact).

Karl, does Tact offer a crossover solution? My plans are to eventually switch the C2 to a Meridian preprocessor (G68 or 801v4). Meridian offers digital outputs, room correction and some pretty nifty compturer software that displays the data in a 3D graph (exactly the way I learnt it by reading the Swedish "Radio och Television" magazine in the 80's [later "Elektronikvärlden"]). Meridian does not have a crossover solution though, which is why I will still need the DEQX when switching to Meridian.

Thanks,
Peter

[nicholtl]

Peter, are you married? If so, what does your spouse say about all this?!

[Peter Nielsen]

Peter, are you married? If so, what does your spouse say about all this?!

Yes, I'm married. We have a son that is going to be 2 years old soon...

She thinks that my HT is my "playroom" and basically lets me do whatever I want to the HT gear :T

Peter

[nicholtl]

Lucky ducky.

[kfr01]

Karl, does Tact offer a crossover solution? My plans are to eventually switch the C2 to a Meridian preprocessor (G68 or 801v4). Meridian offers digital outputs, room correction and some pretty nifty compturer software that displays the data in a 3D graph (exactly the way I learnt it by reading the Swedish "Radio och Television" magazine in the 80's [later "Elektronikvärlden"]). Meridian does not have a crossover solution though, which is why I will still need the DEQX when switching to Meridian.

Thanks,
Peter

Peter:

They have a couple products with built-in crossovers, although they aren't "stand alone" capable like the DEQX solution. In other words, their crossovers are either built into the preamps or the amplifiers themselves.

I'm considering this 2-channel preamp:

http://www.tactlab.com/Products/RCS22XP/index.html

It would allow me to either actively cross over and bi-amp my towers or add active stereo subwoofers to my system.

For someone interested in multiple channels, have you seen this?

http://www.tactlab.com/Products/BOZ/index.html

"16 Channels of digital amplification
200W per channel
Modular Design
Computer-free Cross Over Package
Accomodates 8 unique zones
Floating Point based DSP engine"

"The crossovers for each channel can independently be set to low pass, high pass, or band pass. Band pass filters can be designed with different slops on the low end and the high end of the band. The crossover frequency can be set any where between 10Hz and 24 kHz with 1Hz resolution. Filter orders can be set from 1 to 10 in increments of 1, this will produce slopes from 6 db per octave to 60 db per octave in steps of 6 db per octave."


This might be a decent idea for you. The crossovers are built right into the amplifiers and accept digital inputs. This would eliminate the need for multiple deq devices in addition to amplifiers.

[Peter Nielsen]

This might be a decent idea for you. The crossovers are built right into the amplifiers and accept digital inputs. This would eliminate the need for multiple deq devices in addition to amplifiers.

Well, I need 500W in 4 ohms. I'm not sure Tact is up to that. Also, I really don't need more than one crossover (for the fronts), but it would be nice to room-correct all speakers which Meridian allows me to do out of the box...

Peter

[kfr01]

Well, I need 500W in 4 ohms.

Well, the Tact devices don't do that! It was just a friendly suggestion of a possibility. :-)

You'll have to let us know what you think when you get a chance to demo the PS Audio amps.

Cheers

[bhuskins]

Hi Peter - Did you get my email?

[Peter Nielsen]

Hi Peter - Did you get my email?

Hi Brent. No, some spam filter must have eaten it... Just sent you a PM! :T

[nbourbaki]

I just demo'd the Rotel 1092 amp before I demo'd the Halo A51. The dealer had the Rotel hooked up to a pair of 803D B&Ws. I felt that Rotel rounded off the higher frequencies. A very polite but not the last word in transparency. The 1092 is based on the 1000W ICEPower modules that I believe the PS Audio amp uses. The biggest difference is PS Audio adds the GainCell to the design. The Halo sounded better all around in comparision to the Rotel 1092.

[Peter Nielsen]

I just demo'd the Rotel 1092 amp before I demo'd the Halo A51. The dealer had the Rotel hooked up to a pair of 803D B&Ws. I felt that Rotel rounded off the higher frequencies. A very polite but not the last word in transparency. The 1092 is based on the 1000W ICEPower modules that I believe the PS Audio amp uses. The biggest difference is PS Audio adds the GainCell to the design. The Halo sounded better all around in comparision to the Rotel 1092.

Yes, the 1000W ICE power module has heavy filtering that will round off higher frequencies. Not by much, but still...

For this reason, I will probably get the GCA-250 that is based on the 500W ICE module.

PS Audio actually publishes the frequency curves for their GCA-amps on their site.

Peter

[Peter Nielsen]

Theta Digital Casablanca III

Well, the Tact devices don't do that! It was just a friendly suggestion of a possibility. :-)

Tact seems to have a preamp-only model with 10 channels, the TCS. It may possibly work. I will give them a call and see what it's capable of.

FYI: I've ditched Meridian. It won't work out. Its digital outputs are fixed level and are intended for Meridian digital speakers with builtin volume control. The reply I got from their London based tech support was also in the tone that if you buy a Meridian Prepro, you also have to buy their speakers, otherwise they're not interested in your business.

I also e-mailed Theta Digital. John called me back in a few minutes after I sent the email. Awesome customer service!!!! Their prepros also have fixed level digital outputs, but they offer an external "volume control unit" that is controlled by the prepro. This lets you run the DAC (DEQX in my case) at full resolution all the time, which is ideal. Theta prepros don't have room correction or auto calibration, but if I want that for all my speakers I just throw in a couple of more DEQX's and I have the best of both worlds.

If anybody knows a dealer that can offer a discount on Theta Digital Casablanca III, please let me know.

Thanks,
Peter

[bhuskins]

Don't go looking too far Peter

[Peter Nielsen]

For someone interested in multiple channels, have you seen this?

http://www.tactlab.com/Products/BOZ/index.html

"16 Channels of digital amplification
200W per channel
Modular Design
Computer-free Cross Over Package
Accomodates 8 unique zones
Floating Point based DSP engine"

Karl: Today I had a closer look at the Tact BOZ. It's pretty impressive, although VERY proprietary. Digital all the way to the power amp is appealing. The cost is a litte bit high though: TCS $9900, BOZ 2ch $9000 + $3000 for every 2 channels extra. For 10 channels we end up at +$30k!

Boz would look way cool... Yet it will be less powerful than PS Audio, and the worst: I would have to run unbalanced to my ML subwoofers. The TCS only offers balanced out on L/R/C....

Right now my tought is that the money is better spent on PS Audio/Theta/DECT than going all Tact...

Peter

[Peter Nielsen]

Oh, and definitely worth mentioning: TACT is the only manufacturer (that I have found) that offers digital outputs with volume control in the digital domain.

The Tact TCS can be paired with the DEQX without the need for an external volume control. (Theta's solution with an external volume control in the analog domain is a different approach. Theoretically it is better, but whether the difference is audible is questionable).

Peter

[kfr01]

The Tact gear is very expensive. Enough to make a guy balk at a buy. I don't like that they make all the "extras" so expensive.

For me, the DEQX is on my list (maybe xmas). I'd love to experiment with different speaker designs with the DEQX and a few amps.

[Peter Nielsen]

The Tact gear is very expensive. Enough to make a guy balk at a buy. I don't like that they make all the "extras" so expensive.

What bothers me most is the low 2nd hand value. It seems like it drops to 50% of MSRP the day you buy it. This is very troublesome. Other digital gear (Parasound C2, DEQX) have a much higher resale value.

Thus, if I buy Tact gear I better like it and keep it many years.

For me, the DEQX is on my list (maybe xmas). I'd love to experiment with different speaker designs with the DEQX and a few amps.

You'll love the DEQX! It is awesome. To be honest, the DEQX is really a bit overkill with my 20.1 Maggies, at least as long as I'm "only" bi-amping. The woofer and midrange in the Maggies are very overlapping. A steep filter (where DEQX excellences) is not needed or even desirable with Maggies. Of course the DEQX lets me choose the standard 6/12/18dB filters too, which is what I'm using. If I wanted to make the DEQX more useful, I really should modify my Maggies for tri-amping...

If I end up with an all digital Tact/Boz solution I will probably sell the DEQX since Boz offers builtin crossovers and the TCS has room correction. If I get a Theta Casablanca, I will keep the DEQX because the Casablanca does not have room correction.

Peter

[Zoran]

The resale index should be a very significant indicator of product's worth, generally... A low resale may indicate two basic things: A) poor quality (reliability problems and so...) and B) overpriced suggested retail price.

When digital amps on the table, I think the B) factor has the major role - all that products ARE OVERPRICED due to cost/profite laws of new technology. No big bad power supplies, no huge heatsinks, no mammoth chassis - all genuinely expensive parts of traditional big amp design avoided - but, highish prices yet... Compare, say, Rotel RB-1090 (38 kilos, 380Wpc, 2000USD) to new digital RB-1092 (500Wpc, barely 10 kilos, 2500USD). BTW, user impressions still go on account of the older bigger RB-1090 as better sounding amp.

I would avoid investment in new digital amps for a while (3-4 years). Prices must go down, with supposingly increased quality of designs.

Peter - you own a rare seen collection of high-end amps. JC-1 amps have been my dream amps latest years, but out of my reach, financially. That's why I finished with smaller Halo A21.

Keep the amps!!!!!!!!!

[Peter Nielsen]

When digital amps on the table, I think the B) factor has the major role - all that products ARE OVERPRICED due to cost/profite laws of new technology. No big bad power supplies, no huge heatsinks, no mammoth chassis - all genuinely expensive parts of traditional big amp design avoided - but, highish prices... Compare, say, Rotel RB-1090 (38 kilos, 380Wpc, 2000USD) to new digital RB-1092 (500Wpc, barely 10 kilos, 2500USD). BTW, user impressions still go on account of older bigger RB-1090 as batter sounding amp.

Yes, I'm inclined to agree with this when it comes to amps based on the generally available modules, for instance ICE Power and Hypex. Manufacturers use these generic modules and inflate the prices. (Both Rotel and PS Audio is based on Bang&Olufsen's ICE Power).

Did you know that the "digital" amplifiers really aren't "digital" at all. They're hybrids.

I'm looking seriously at Tact. Their amplifiers are the only true digital amps out there. The digital signal is converted to analog through the amplification. There is no DAC in the common sense. Tact is using their own technology and is not based on generic modules.

FYI, who said digital cannot be heavy weight? The Tact BOZ216 power supply unit weighs MORE than a JC-1 (!)

I would avoid investment in new digital amps for a while (3-4 years). Prices must go down, with supposedly increased quality of designs.

Prices will go down and more alternatives will be available. But it's the same as with computers: regardless when you buy, there will be something better out there in the future...

Peter

[Peter Nielsen]

Sunfire's cool running non-digital amps

I just stumbled onto something that is totally new to me. Sunfire apparently makes a new breed of amps that run cool, yet appear NOT to be Class-D amps:

7x400/800W: http://www.sunfire.com/TGA7400.html
2x600/1200W: http://www.sunfire.com/Signature600FrontPR.htm

This looks very promising! Does anybody here have experience with this new amplifier technology?

Peter

[bhuskins]

I would put the NewClassic amps (2250 and 5250) head to head against the Sunfire amps. The NC amps run cool as well (aren't Class D) and have an overall better tonal quality, IMO. I can sell Sunfire too, so don't take this as bias. My personal favorite from Sunfire is their Ultimate Receiver line up. It provides a very nice alternative to the Japanese branded receivers.

[Peter Nielsen]

Makes me wonder how the Sunfire amps compare to the PS Audio GCA-series (or other ICEpower based amps) ?

Peter

[Dapper Dan]

Hi Peter,

Sorry to hear the demise of the JC-1's (figuratively speaking) so if you are thinking about using class D amplification, have you considered the Halcro range,

http://www.halcro.com

here is a review

http://www.stereophile.com/solidpoweramps/406halcro/

I am interested to see what you think!

Happy Hunting,

Dapper Dan

[Peter Nielsen]

Hi Peter,

Sorry to hear the demise of the JC-1's (figuratively speaking) so if you are thinking about using class D amplification, have you considered the Halcro range,

http://www.halcro.com

Yes. They won't cut it. Not enough power. Maggies really need at least 500W in 4 ohms, unless you're bi-amping. (The dm78 or dm88 would probably be Ok, but in this case the form factor won't work).

I'm pretty much decided on going with TacT Boz amplifiers and their new TCS Mk3 preprocessor that is supposed to be released this fall.

TacT are the only TRUE digital amps that only take a digital input signal and don't use a traditional DAC at all. The amplifier IS the DAC. Combine that with the new TCS that accepts HDMI v1.2, and I'll be able to run SACD digital all the way. (The TacT amps are 400W, but since they have builtin crossovers, they offer a great solution to biamping).

Peter