Opinions on 703 with HTM1 Centre

[Aussie Geoff]

Hired Goon,

You sent me a PM - however I’ve taken the liberty of posting an extract from your PM and my response as this thread so that others can contribute – you face a big decision and deserve the benefits of a range of opinions….

A while back you mentioned getting the B&W 703 and HTM1.

I'm currently trying to decide which speakers to get, and one option was 805s and the matching HTM2.

But knowing how much you (and everyone else) rave about the HTM1, I'm thinking that maybe I should look to the HTM1 + 703 combination (can't afford HTM1 + 804/803 at this stage).

Good move – well worth listening to.

I presume you are moving to a RMB-1095 from your other posts? This would be good for either the 703s or 805s

What Subwoofer do you have? – the reason I ask is that the 805 option really (IMO) lives or dies by the quality of the sub you can use with it.

How large is your room? – The reason I ask is that the 805s will strain above a certain volume in a large room (a driver size issue)…

* Are you still happy with the 703? Is it good speaker by itself, for two-channel use? I know the 703+HTM1 would be good for HT, but 80% of my use is music, so I need a speaker that's sonically superior than average here. I really like the clarity, imaging and soundstage of the 805s -- would I be satisfied with the 703?

The 703s are IMO a fantastic buy – you need to spend some time listening with good source material to pick the differences with the 804s – they are there but for many of them it is arguable (and personal taste) as to which is better – I needed to move to the 803 before I went “wow that’s a lot better”. The 703s are great for music – 2 big advantages for me over the 805s are:
1) Better midrange with the FST driver
2) Natural deeper bass meaning that you can play music in pure stereo mode and enjoy the bass impact (not a strength of the 805s)

As to would you be satisfied with the 703 – the only way to know is to listen – book a time with a dealer, bring in your own CDs and in the same room spend some time comparing both (take a day of work to get a quite time with the dealer – he will leave you alone for an hour or two)… I cannot recommend this process highly enough – it allows one to buy with confidence. You would have seen from the recent 805 / 705 debate that there are a range of personal (all valid) opinions here.

* Do you find that the 703s really match the HTM1? I know they use the same FST, but does the 703 cabinet design, which is different to the 800 series cabinet design, affect the sound? Are the mid-range drivers contained in the cabinet the same way? The 804 has what looks like a large screw in the back for winding the midrange, but I don't recall this for the 703. Actually the HTM1 looks to be a 804 on its side. Would any of these factors make a difference?

I find there is a much better match with the HTM1 and 703 than with the HTM7… The HTM1 has an amazing presence, especially vocal quality that really nails the HT sound stage (also good for any Dolby IIx Music listening). Clearly the HTM1 is an even better speaker than the 703, but they sound surprisingly close – a voice panning across them barely changes in character and pink noise test tones are as close as you get with different speakers…

Re your other questions – I’m sure that the more complex cabinet design of the Nautilus range (the main cost factor over the 700 series) makes a difference in the sound – the curved side and even more complex matrix bracing gives a very rigid cabinet.

* What rears are you using that match the 703/HTM1? I was thinking of 805s all round, but if I get the 703 for fronts, then perhaps 705s for rears would be the better option?

705s – they are a nice match for the 703s – if I was to go to the 800 series it would be the SCM1s but they are more than twice the price in Aussie.

For some more opinions see this thread AVS Forum

To close - let me be clear that I would buy the 803s to (or even better the 802s) to go with the HTM1 if I could afford them - but since I can't - the 703 is a awefully good compromise to my ears... Any I like the "big sound" especially for stereo from larger speakers like the 703, 804, 803 etc which (despite it's undoubted purity of sound) the 805 just can't match - especially in a larger room...

Geoff

[BlazeMaster]

how bout the difference from 705 to 804 Geoff? The reason I ask this is because this will most likely be my upgrade path. I have the 601 with LCR600 right now and soon to upgrade to the 705 with HTM7 around middle of next year. And from there I'll go to the 804 w/ HTM1. The reason I'm going this way instead of going with 805 w/HTM2 is so not only I up a series, but also up the size of speakers as well to justify going to the Nautilus series and hopefully by the mid of 2006, they'll refresh the 800 line. I'd hate to jump to the 800 and have them change them within the same year. I didn't get to spend too much time w/ the 804 the last I was at my dealer, mainly w/ 805 vs 705. So will the 804 give me better lower end compare to the 705? And if the 804 is not enough on the lower end, what can I do to improve that? I know the 803 will solve most of that problem, but I just don't think I can afford paying $5000 on a pair of speakers, no matter how much I like them. Thanks Geoff.

[Aussie Geoff]

Blazemaster,

How bout the difference from 705 to 804 Geoff? The reason I ask this is because this will most likely be my upgrade path. I have the 601 with LCR600 right now and soon to upgrade to the 705 with HTM7 around middle of next year. And from there I'll go to the 804 w/ HTM1. The reason I'm going this way instead of going with 805 w/HTM2 is so not only I up a series, but also up the size of speakers as well to justify going to the Nautilus series and hopefully by the mid of 2006, they'll refresh the 800 line. I'd hate to jump to the 800 and have them change them within the same year.

I think you are on a very sensible strategy.

From the info in several forums, including comments by senior B&W personnel, I’d say you are 99% certain to have a refreshed Nautilus range by mid 2006 – remember the 40th anniversary next year etc.

I didn't get to spend too much time w/ the 804 the last I was at my dealer, mainly w/ 805 vs 705. So will the 804 give me better lower end compare to the 705? And if the 804 is not enough on the lower end, what can I do to improve that? I know the 803 will solve most of that problem, but I just don't think I can afford paying $5000 on a pair of speakers, no matter how much I like them. Thanks Geoff.

The 804 is a very nice speaker, one which I (personally) think is a substantial upgrade from the 805 and absolutely the 705… We are talking the differences between a quality bookshelf and a full range floorstander - instantly audible on 90% of music...

Differences that I noted which I think you will hear to include: Cleaner overall midrange (the FST), and tighter deeper bass. This especially applies to stereo listening where you won’t have a subwoofer. The FST midrange really brings out an amazing amount of detail that is just suppressed by two way designs... Think of the 804 as being similar tonally to the 803 – just not quite as deep and accurate bass and with a little bit different, slighly less transparent midrange… Assuming you can afford reasonable amplification (think Rotel 1080 or 1095 as the minimum) I think that you will really enjoy the set-up to the 804 and HTM1…

Geoff

[BlazeMaster]

yea...that's what I thought too. By looking at the specs between the 803 and 804's frequency response, the 803 only goes 3 Hz lower, I don't think that's a audible difference for me. Even if there's an audible difference, I think I'll only be able to hear it only if I have them both in the same room with the same setup. If I only have one of them in the room separatly, I'd never be able to hear it with my own ears. I guess what I'm trying to say is that, if I take the 804s home I'd definitly hear a difference from what I upgraded 804s from either the 705 or 805. But I don't think I can if I took the 803s home after having the 804s for a while. At least not a $1500 difference.
What would you do Geoff? Would you upgrade from 600 bookshelves to 705 or 805? And after having either the 805 or 705 would you upgrade to 804 or 803. Remember that my upgrade would have to be something that's 2 times the MSRP of what I'm upgrading from. Thanks for your quick response by the way.

[Aussie Geoff]

Blazemaster,

In one sense the 804 / 803 discussion is likely to be irrelevant, given your plans for jumping to the next generation of the Nautilus range... I'd defer the decision until they are available and you have time for some detailed comparative listening (and perhaps a post here ). However I have no doubt you will find the 804 a BIG step up from the 705 you are contemplating.

Personally I also think the 705s are a major step up from the 600 series bookshelfs like the 601 and 602... I find them much more revealing and clearer (they have some European Speaker of the year award to match!)

So your plans and timeframes seems excellent...

What would you do Geoff? Would you upgrade from 600 bookshelves to 705 or 805? And after having either the 805 or 705 would you upgrade to 804 or 803.

To be specific - given the twice MSP upgrade requirements:
>> Yes I would pick the 705s with the HTM7 now
>> Yes I would then go for the 803/804 with the HTM1 (or their next generation equivalents). As to whether the 803 is worth the extra $1500 - this is a very personal decision… Only you can decide that at the time with some careful comparative listennng

As I understand it other options like the 703/HTM1 combination or the 805/HTM2 don't work for you as given the at least twice MSP upgrade requirements for your next upgrade... This leaves your path as giving something like a doubling in sound quality (and price) with each upgrade!

However let me confirm:
1) You have listened to the 705s on quality material that you know and thought "wow a good upgrade"
2) You have compared the 705s to the 805s and know the tonal differences
3) You have listened to the 804/803 and were impressed...
4) You have quality amplification now for the 705s (what is this?)

If not - please do so ASAP - speakers are personal - you need to listen and compare to be sure... Only that will give you the confidence to enjoy each step of the upgrade...

Geoff

[jlee]

>yea...that's what I thought too. By looking at the specs between the 803 and 804's frequency response, the 803 only goes 3 Hz lower, I don't think that's a audible difference for me. Even if there's an audible difference, I think I'll only be able to hear it only if I have them both in the same room with the same setup. If I only have one of them in the room separatly, I'd never be able to hear it with my own ears. I guess what I'm trying to say is

It's not the 3Hz lower that counts... look at the distortion specs... the 803 is a major step up in playing lower bass ACCURATELY compared to the 804... also, due to the bigger cabinet, the separated midrange cabinet is almost the same volume as the Nautilus head found on the 802 and 801... so you get a more accurate midrange than the 804... you also get 1dB more efficiency... so the amp doesn't have to work as hard for a given volume, which usually results in slightly less distortion.

Now look at the specs for the 802 for the distortion... not much better than the 803... you have to go to 801 with the huge 15" bass driver to get a significant improvement for bass accuracy.

All that being said, I still think the 804 is worth buying BEFORE the 803 to fully appreciate the improvement ONCE you go to the 803... I currently have the 804 (2 years now) and once I go to 803, I'm going to appreciate it a lot more... I don't think that 2 years ago my ears were good enough to appreciate the improvement.

[Aussie Geoff]

Jlee,

Thanks for the info - I know (as I have posted before several times) I personally found the 803 to be a worthwhile step up from the 804 that would well justify the $2000 Aussie difference - but I wasn't sure why - I just liked the cleaner bass and midrange - especially on stereo. I thought (as I have posted before) that it sounded like a "poor mans" 802 and was temped sorely. You have now given me the explanation... :T

Personally - my strategy (and budget) is the 703/HTM1 now and then in 2 years or so upgrade to the 803 replacement...

Geoff

[DrBoom]

You could argue that buying 804's now would be a "mistake" because of the pending release of the new 800 series, but I made that very same mistake when they were about to release the 700 series.
I really had my eye on CDM9 NT's, but I wanted to wait for the newer and supposedly better 703.
Turned out I didn't like the 703, so I got stuck with 804's. :B
What I'm saying is, newer isn't always better, and you can be sure that the new series will once again be more expensive by at least 10%.

[BlazeMaster]

very good point, Dr. Boom. Newer isn't always better and I do already love the current 800 series now.
Geoff....right now I only have a Denon 2805, which is one of the main reason I"m staying away from the 805 and opt for the 705 instead as they're less dependent on a quality amp source. Shortly after I get the 705 w/HTM7, I'll pick up a Rotel 1075. And after I get the 803/804 combo, I'll get that 1095. Not sure if you seen my recent post about my question regarding using 2 different Rotel 5 channels amps to biamp the front 3 speakers. I was planning on using either 2 1075 or a 1075 and a 1095, so the front 3 speakers can get either 120x2 each or 340 wpc each and the 2 surrounds gets 120 wpc.

[jlee]

Newer is not always better... I think B&W is going to be hard pressed to improve on the 800 series.... they have it all... great sound, great looks, probably some of the best if not THE BEST speaker in the world at EACH PRICE point... maybe they could fiddle a bit with the drivers, the crossovers, WBT connections (Platinum anniversary edition like on the Signatures instead of gold plated), etc... but it's pretty hard to beat those beautiful AND VERY FUNCTIONAL cabinets for design and finish.

I talked to a B&W rep at a local show here in Vancouver, BC... he said the 800 series may not NECESSARILY be replaced in 2006, but they could come out with a "one off" like they did with the Signature 25 speaker (can't remember the exact number but it was for their last major anniversary)... there's a reason the 800 series has been around so long... why mess with a good thing? I don't think anything has "topped" them so until another line of speakers do, B&W has no incentive to beat their own line. I did put in a request for an FST version of the SCM1...the rep couldn't say anything for sure, but just said "be careful what you wish for, you may just get it!"

One example of newer is not always better is the new REL Britinnia series released in the US only... to me, they are charging more for an ugly front firing sub with square corners... the ST series has a much nicer finish and downward firing so you don't have to look at that ugly driver... they say it's better in every way, but the jury is still out... I was going to upgrade at first, but on 2nd thought, I'm very happy with my now "classic" ST series subs.

[Aussie Geoff]

Blazemaster,

Given your current Deon 2805 I fully concure with the strategy...

From experience - if there is ANY WAY you can stretch to the Rotel 1075 early, using the Denon as a Pre-Pro - do it - it will make all the difference in the transparency of the sound. I added one to my Denon 3802 and it started me down this path of madness!

Geoff

[sikoniko]

I did put in a request for an FST version of the SCM1...the rep couldn't say anything for sure, but just said "be careful what you wish for, you may just get it!"

I have wondered why the scm1 and 805 do not have the FST and I have come to my own conclusion that it couldnt happen unless they added an additional speaker to the cabinet. The dynamics of the FST is that it doesnt move. This is fine for mid, but because the SCM1 and 805 shares some low end duty, it needs to be able to have the ability to generate lower frequencies. I dont know the science behind it, but I believe it is what I have heard from different types of subs in the car audio world from makes such as JL audio, and their W series.

[BlazeMaster]

I wonder how come they don't make a dipole for the 800s series? The new 700s just came out not too long ago and there is a DS7 that is a dipole/monopole. Maybe they will add a 800s version of it. I do like the SCM1 though, but I'd only mount it on the side walls not the rear walls.

Geoff, as for your question about what I've heard and thought about the 705 vs 805....
I'll get the 1075 within 2 months after I pick up the 7/805.
Through the 20 min demo I had between the 2, I'd have to say I actually like the 805s better, much smoother vocals.
My SVS PCi20-39 was placed this past Friday and should arrive next Friday. And hopefully, it can be musical enough for me to pair it with 7/805 until I can get the 803s a year later. When I get the 803s I'll upgrade the 1075 to a 1095 or their digital amp that's coming out. If the SVS isn't enough for me, I can always exchange it for one of their box designs or a "+" version of the same size.

[jlee]

Yes, what I meant by the FST version of the SCM1 is a 3 driver version... tweeter, FST, and bass... so the speaker would have to be slightly longer... almost like a cutoff 804 with only 1 bass driver and no port.

And yes, the FST does move... a LOT... many many times per second... the RANGE of movement is just really small :wink:

[Aussie Geoff]

Jlee,

I talked to a B&W rep at a local show here in Vancouver, BC... he said the 800 series may not NECESSARILY be replaced in 2006

Interesting. I spoke to my local B&W rep who claims that his "inside information from a very senior B&W manager" is that B&W are planning at least three things for their anniversary:

• A "series 2' style release for the Nautilus 800 series that incorporates driver upgrades. Two things specifically mentioned were: Tweeters that go to 50Khz (like the 700 series does now); and upgraded bass drivers, including the magnet structure...
• An anniversary edition speaker (a company tradition)
• Some extra speakers in the 800 series range for the Home Theater market (this may be before the anniversary

I guess this is not inconsistent with "not replacing the 800 series" but I suspect that B&W is giving out very limited information and / or mixed messages ....

Geoff

[sikoniko]

Well, my product catalog is for 2003-2004, so I would suspect we might see more soon.

I hope they come out soon anyways... I promised my fiance I would be done by march. heh.

[jlee]

Aussie Geoff,

That makes very much sense! It cost B&W a lot of money to design the look and manufacturing technique of those Nautilus 800 series cabinets. I would think that all 800's will get the Signature tweeter or maybe even an entirely new tweeter, similar to the one found on the 700 series (but probably upgraded still). And the upgraded magnets would make sense, similar to the upgraded ones found on the Signature 805 which just totally changes the speaker for the better!

Let's hope those "extra speakers" will be an FST version of the SCM1 ... they will probably make a dipole version of the SCM1 or 805 for surrounds as well, but I'm not a big fan of dipole surrounds.

[greggz]

I'm interested in finding out more about that upcoming speaker in the upper right corner of the picture. I think its called the CCM 817. I'm currently using some CCM65's for my channel 6 and 7 speakers, but I'd like to upgrade to something that angles more toward the listener rather than points straight down at the floor.

[sikoniko]

i posted about those already. let me find the thread.

see this thread:

http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=9510

and

http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=9509

[greggz]

Ah, great! Thanks! :T Oooo, $700 EACH, ouch. 8O