Musings on trying out the 705 and 805

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  • hired goon
    Senior Member
    • Aug 2004
    • 226

    Musings on trying out the 705 and 805

    G'day,

    So I went to a the local B&W dealer tonight, and performed some serious auditions on the 805, mainly testing out the lower end. It's good, better than I thought, but not quite perfect. However, I reckon the imaging, detail, and openness of the 805s more than compensate for this.

    The only speaker that hit all the right buttons for me was the 802, but that's nowhere near my price range, so the 805 is probably my best bet.

    The bottom end still worries me, however. How many 805 owners out there use a sub for 2-channel?

    I wanted to try out the 703, but the dealer recommended the cheaper 805. His opinion was that the 703 had bottom end, but lacks the qualities (clarity, imaging, etc) that I like in the 805. Maybe next time I'll get a chance to try the 703s, but does anyone agree with this?

    I also did another test of the 705s. I tested these the other week at another dealer, and was not impressed at all with the bass. However, the bass response of the 705s at this dealer was *much* better. Not as tight or as punchy as the 805, but better than I thought. In a previous post I mentioned that I thought that the 602 s3 had the edge over the 705 -- well, I retract that now.

    However, doing A/B tests with the 705 & 805, it was no contest. The 705 was harsher, and the sound noticeably thinner. With the 805, the speakers disappeared into the background, but with the 705, I was aware of their presence. The soundstage was two-dimensional, rather than being all over the room. When I upped the volume, the sound seemed to collapse to a single plane.

    For example, I was playing the opening track from Beck's "Sea Change", which has some nice acoustic guitar strumming. With the 705, the guitars were tinny and fatiguing, but with the 805, they rang out beautifully.

    I mentioned that I had Rotel amps, and the dealer did not seem pleased. He told a "horror story" of a customer who had bought a RMB-1095, tried it out with the 805s, and sold the 1095 the next day. Now this dealer does not stock Rotel, so he would naturally frown on other brands. But I've trusted his judgement so far, and the question should still be asked: are they are any B&W owners out there that have been unhappy with Rotel amplification?

    I'm hoping to try out some Paradigm speakers next, specifically the Reference Studio 40 v3, which are just a little bit cheaper than the 705s. I've got a hunch that these will sound somewhere in between the 705 and the 805 (but for half the price of the 805). Can anyone with experience of paradigm and B&W care to comment?

    -- Geoff
    Last edited by hired goon; 30 September 2004, 16:38 Thursday. Reason: Change "602 s2" to "602 s3"
  • sikoniko
    Super Senior Member
    • Aug 2003
    • 2299

    #2
    I don't know anything about shipping internationally, but I can highly recommend the cinnenova grande 5, which comes in a couple hundred over the 1095 in US dollars, is 300x5 and sounds amazing.

    If you are interested I can give you the guys contact info and can inquire w/ him more details. He sells bryston and krell as well at a deep discount.
    I'm just sittin here watchin the wheels go round and round...

    Comment

    • DrBoom
      Senior Member
      • Dec 2003
      • 325

      #3
      Regarding the Rotel amps, I used to own a 1075 but got rid of it after 6 months because it made my 804's and 805's sound like a waste of money.
      And because I had heard these speakers sound so wonderful on other amps, it was surely an amp problem.
      For the 805's alone, it was still OK, but it didn't bring out the best in them.
      For the 804's, it was even way worse so something had to be done.
      I sold the Rotel, and bought a used Parasound HCA2205AT, which was sooo much better at everything.
      More midrange detail, clearer highs, and especially more powerful and defined bass.
      I don't know how the 1095 sounds, but I can't recommend the 1075 at all for Nautilus speakers.

      Furthermore I had the same idea about the 705 vs the 805, the latter sounds more natural to me as well.
      That goes for the entire series actually, not just the bookshelf models.

      Comment

      • weijst
        Senior Member
        • Jun 2004
        • 282

        #4
        Hired goon,

        As you might allready have read in previous threads, I do not share your opinion on the 705's performance.

        - Concerning bass performance; if I really have to point out a winner, it's the 705. Yes, the 805 might be somewhat 'tighter' (matrix housing?), but I believe the 705 went deeper...

        - The 705 harsh / thin? Maybe your dealer just got them out of the box, since I did not experience these characteristics at all...

        - I believe the 805 do offer a more relaxed soundstage / wider stereo imgage. Another way of putting this; the 705s sounded more upfront / were more present. It however, depended largely on the kind of music that was playing (thuh )

        Final thought: I do believe the 805 can be a 'better' speaker than the 705 (why else would B&W have introduced the 705 for a lower price than the 805!?)
        The difference in price between the two however may only be worth it on very capable equipment and when playing the kind of music that might not enjoy everyone's preference...

        Final words: I can not point this out enough: These were my experiences resulting from my preferences. I missed this part in your post...
        Marantz SR7005, UD5007; B&W SCMS, Nautilus SCM1; Velodyne SPL-1200R

        Comment

        • DarrenR
          Junior Member
          • Oct 2003
          • 11

          #5
          Geoff
          The 805s really does benefit from the addition of a quality subwoofer...don't expect much if you buy an el chepo from your local JB Hi-Fi.
          I'm guessing you auditioned the 805s at Northside since you live in Brisbane, & they used the Electrocompaniet integrated for amplification. Both the 700 and 800 series really benefit from using a high powered amp, & I suspect the difference that you noticed in the 705 between different dealers was due to different amplifers being used.
          In terms of Rotel/B&W, I once used a 5 channel Rotel (110 w x 5 channels) to drive a pair of CDN NT7. I always thought these speakers sounded too thin until I hooked them up to a Classe integrated (150 watt); all the sudden I had solid & controlled bass. Again (IMHO), I really think you really need a high power amp to get the best out of the CDM, 700 and 800 series. What Rotels do you have BTW?

          Darren

          Comment

          • hired goon
            Senior Member
            • Aug 2004
            • 226

            #6
            G'day,

            Originally posted by DrBoom
            Regarding the Rotel amps, I used to own a 1075 but got rid of it after 6 months because it made my 804's and 805's sound like a waste of money.
            And because I had heard these speakers sound so wonderful on other amps, it was surely an amp problem.
            For the 805's alone, it was still OK, but it didn't bring out the best in them.
            For the 804's, it was even way worse so something had to be done.
            I've got a Rotel 1075, but if I was going to go for the 805s, then my plan was to pick up another amp (such as the Rotel RMB-1080, but not necessarily) to drive them, and use the 1075 for the centre/rears.

            Originally posted by weijst
            Concerning bass performance; if I really have to point out a winner, it's the 705. Yes, the 805 might be somewhat 'tighter' (matrix housing?), but I believe the 705 went deeper...
            I'm afraid I didn't notice a deeper bass performance on the 705. I took along some CDs with decent bass, and the 805 handled it just enough, but the 705 didn't seem to go as low -- there seemed to be details missing, or muddied.

            Originally posted by weijst
            The 705 harsh / thin? Maybe your dealer just got them out of the box, since I did not experience these characteristics at all
            These were demonstration 705s, well broken-in. I mean "harsh/thin" in comparison to the 805, rather than in isolation. I still think the 705s are a good speaker at that price point, but the 805 is another level up, I reckon. But after listening to the guitar sounds (amongst others) on 705 vs 805, my opinion is still that the 705s had a thinner, brighter sound.

            Originally posted by weijst
            I believe the 805 do offer a more relaxed soundstage / wider stereo imgage. Another way of putting this; the 705s sounded more upfront / were more present. It however, depended largely on the kind of music that was playing
            I tested about 20 CDs last night, covering many genres (techno, dub, heavy metal, jazz, pop, female vocal, male vocal, choirs, orchestral, piano), and my opinion is that the 805 produced a "better" (according to my preferences) sound for all of them.

            Originally posted by DarrenR
            The 805s really does benefit from the addition of a quality subwoofer...don't expect much if you buy an el chepo from your local JB Hi-Fi.
            I was hoping to test out the B&W 750, but didn't have enough time. I'm not averse to using a sub, so long as it is quick and musical enough, but it's not really something I desire for 2-channel. As I said, I may trade-off some bass extension for clarity/imaging/etc.

            Originally posted by DarrenR
            I'm guessing you auditioned the 805s at Northside since you live in Brisbane, & they used the Electrocompaniet integrated for amplification.
            Yep. And a Meridian CD player, and Transparent cables. So good gear, but obviously out of may price range (the bi-wires were around $2000, apparently).

            Originally posted by DarrenR
            Both the 700 and 800 series really benefit from using a high powered amp, & I suspect the difference that you noticed in the 705 between different dealers was due to different amplifers being used.
            I originally tested the 705s at Toombul Music, and they use Musical Fidelity amps and CD players, which I thought were "high quality". I think the amp was 2x100w, which *should* be sufficient for the 705s. I also tested out the 703 using the same amp, and it seemed to have no problem driving them and producing a great sound.

            Originally posted by DarrenR
            In terms of Rotel/B&W, I once used a 5 channel Rotel (110 w x 5 channels) to drive a pair of CDN NT7. I always thought these speakers sounded too thin until I hooked them up to a Classe integrated (150 watt); all the sudden I had solid & controlled bass. Again (IMHO), I really think you really need a high power amp to get the best out of the CDM, 700 and 800 series. What Rotels do you have BTW?
            I've currently got a 1068 and a 1075, but (as mentioned above), if I went for an 800 series, then I'd be getting another amp for driving them (possibly a Rotel RMB-1080 2x200w).

            -- Geoff

            Comment

            • greggz
              Senior Member
              • Jun 2002
              • 317

              #7
              The bottom end still worries me, however. How many 805 owners out there use a sub for 2-channel?
              I can highly recommend the pairing of a REL Strata sub (even better, a pair of them ) with the N805s. In my opinion, by going with a bookshelf and a sub, you can place the bookshelves into the room for optimum imaging and orient the sub independently for optimum bass response.

              I mentioned that I had Rotel amps, and the dealer did not seem pleased. He told a "horror story" of a customer who had bought a RMB-1095, tried it out with the 805s, and sold the 1095 the next day. Now this dealer does not stock Rotel, so he would naturally frown on other brands.
              I am running my N805's (and HTM2 & SCM1s) with a Rotel RMB-1095 and have no complaints. It is a warm sounding amp, so if you are a tin-ear you may not like it. I originally had an Adcom amp and it was terrible with the N805s. Very bright, lots of glare.
              Last edited by greggz; 01 October 2004, 12:15 Friday.
              Gregg

              Our Home Theater

              Comment

              • jlee
                Senior Member
                • Aug 2004
                • 337

                #8
                I pretty much 2nd what was said about the amps. The 1075 is not a good match for the 805's... 1095 or 1080 is the minimum to get decent sound out of the 805's. 1095 is a bit warm like greg said, but is very listenable and musical overall. I demoed the 1080 and I found that the 1095 actually does some things better than the 1080. For 1, it seems to have more power reserve in 2 channel... I believe I saw a test that tested it at 280W/ch when played in pure 2 channel... so u can play a little louder/clearer with the 1095. However, the 1080 does some other things better. Overall, I felt it was about even between the 2 amps. I have now stepped up to Classe CAM-200's and the sound is more pitch accurate, highs more extended, bass a bit more extended (it also helps my REL's sound better and go deeper because the high level signal first has to pass through the amp and the Rotels I found rolled off quicker in the bass - I believe this was confirmed in a magazine test for the freq. response). The CAM-200's actually can't play as loud as the 1095 though... because with 5 channels, and sometimes 1 channel requiring more than the 200W, I find the CAM-200's clip a bit sooner (maybe 2 notches earlier on the volume dial). The 1095 uses it's reserve from the other 3-4 channels at times to be able to give 1-2 channels the added boost. However, at high volumes, the 1095 does introduce audible distortion (especially with all 5 channels playing loudly) whereas the Classe is pretty free of audible distortion right up to max volume it can play at. This is what I would expect as the Classe lists for a lot more.

                Comment

                • Mark_C.
                  Senior Member
                  • Jan 2003
                  • 386

                  #9
                  Originally posted by jlee
                  The 1075 is not a good match for the 805's... 1095 or 1080 is the minimum to get decent sound out of the 805's.
                  I couldn't disagree more with that statement. I've been using a 1075 with my 805s for more than a year. I had a chance to evaluate the 1075 against the 1095 and the only difference was a couple db. I guess if you're going to run your HT to screaming levels for long periods of time, the 1095 or the 1080 would be the more logical choice. But that isn't usually the case, so why bother?

                  Comment

                  • jlee
                    Senior Member
                    • Aug 2004
                    • 337

                    #10
                    It wasn't the extra loudness that was the basis of my statement. I had both the 1075 and 1095 for a couple of weeks in my system (I originally went with the 1075, but upgraded to the 1095). What I found with the 1095 is better pitch accuracy, better control of the bass (higher damping factor than the 1075... so u get better tightness and less "note hangover"). You will also get a lot less distortion at moderate levels, and a lot lot less distortion at high levels. Where the 1075 starts to limit out, the 1095 isn't really breaking a sweat. The overall musicality of the 1095 is superior. Not to say that the 1075 is not a great amp... it is! The 1095 is double the price, so it should be better. My opinion is that for straight TWO CHANNEL, my feeling is that the 1095 provides the minimum acceptable standard with the 805. With the 1075 in straight 2 channel, the 1075 becomes the weak link.

                    Perhaps I should have said the 1075 is not the optimum match in my opinion... sorry if I offended you. You will still get decent sound out of the 805's... just that I think the 805's for straight 2 channel deserve more.

                    Comment

                    • Mark_C.
                      Senior Member
                      • Jan 2003
                      • 386

                      #11
                      Originally posted by jlee
                      Where the 1075 starts to limit out, the 1095 isn't really breaking a sweat.
                      My point exactly. Where the 1075 begins to reach it's limit, it's already beyond loud. The 1095, in my opinion, just allows you to increase the dbs. Alot of folks like that, great. And it's your opinion that the 1095 is a better match for the 805s than the 1075. I respect that.
                      As for all that other audiophile stuff, I disagree with that also. At 75db levels, one can't tell whether a 1075 or a 1095 is powering speakers in my opinion. At least I couldn't when doing my in-home comparison. So we agree to disagree.

                      Comment

                      • Aussie Geoff
                        Super Senior Member
                        • Oct 2003
                        • 1914

                        #12
                        Mark C,

                        As for all that other audiophile stuff, I disagree with that also.
                        Enjoy your system - you clearly don't have upgraditis like many of us...

                        We respect that you can't hear the differences (or they aren't relevant for you). It's just for many of us they are.

                        That's why I (and many regular posters here) always try to recommend comparative listening as for some people the differences are huge and for others they are not worth the money. Lets consider the range of opinions from HTGuide members on amplification for the 805s:
                        • You can drive the 805s with a good Receiver
                        • While a reciver will drive the 805s, it won't do them justice - you need separates to get a decent sound.
                        • The Rotel 1075 is good enouhg for the 805s - differences above that are at volumes you don't want to listen to anyhow
                        • The 1075 is OK but you will get better sound with the 1095
                        • In the Rotel range, really you want a stereo amp like the 1080 or 1090 to reveal the 805s at their best
                        • Rotel amps dont do the 805s justice - you need a more upmarket brands like Parasound, Classe etc.
                        • To hear the 805s at their best you need a pair of Musical Fidelity 1000W monoblocks (Stereophile reviewer!)

                        Each, I'm sure right to the ears of the listeners who did the comparison.

                        PS - For my money nothing less than the 1075 does justice to the 805s and every option listed above would be a worthwhile stepup - though I'd stop at the 1080 or so - prefering to spend more money after that on better speakers!

                        Geoff
                        Last edited by Aussie Geoff; 02 October 2004, 21:12 Saturday.

                        Comment

                        • DrBoom
                          Senior Member
                          • Dec 2003
                          • 325

                          #13
                          Geoff is on to something here
                          It just goes to show that the 805's are a good-enough speaker to keep improving their sound with different and more expensive amplifiers.
                          A 602 (for example) might reach the limit of how good it can get at the level of let's say an RB1080.
                          The 800 series goes far beyond that and will continue to improve no matter how expensive you amplifiers get.
                          I once heard a 602 powered by a Classé CP65 preamp with CAM350 monoblocks, and a CDP10 CD player.
                          All Cardas interconnects, speakercable and powercords.
                          Though it was the best 602 I've ever heard and it was way better than when it's powered by a $1000 stereo amp, it still had it's limits and the music never really got away from the cabinet (which tended to resonate quite a bit as well at high levels).

                          I agree with your catgories completely, I'm currently in the Parasound group, but I'm fully aware that a dedicated stereo amplifier (integrated or separates) make the 800 series sound much, much, much better than any HT processor I've ever heard.

                          Comment

                          • jlee
                            Senior Member
                            • Aug 2004
                            • 337

                            #14
                            1.
                            >At 75db levels, one can't tell whether a 1075 or a 1095 is powering speakers in my opinion.

                            A lot of it depends on the associated equipment. With revealing front end, cables, etc... it will be easier to tell. If something else is the weak link, then the 1095 may not sound much better if at all than the 1075 in that system. Anyways, at 75dB, it's harder to tell, but the improvement is still there. Bass definition improvement is still audible even at about 75dB. Personally, I've never bought a more powerful amp to play louder. I've bought it to play with less distortion at the level I like to listen at. I recently traded the 1095 for Classe CAM-200's in the front and a 1080 for the rear. The CAM-200's actually clip a BIT sooner than the 1095 in 2 channel (1095 apparently puts out about 280W in 2 channel and can play 1-2 dB louder), but sounds SO much better at the level I listen because distortion is so much lower at ALL levels. Something that the Classes get right is pitch accuracy at all frequencies.

                            2.
                            >602 (for example) might reach the limit of how good it can get at the level of let's say an RB1080.

                            I think the 602's max out at the 1070 :wink:
                            The cabinet resonance was just damn annoying. Bass drivers are really slow as well... so you just get this big muddy "boom" sound a lot of the time instead of defined tight bass.

                            Cheers.

                            Comment

                            • BlazeMaster
                              Senior Member
                              • May 2004
                              • 644

                              #15
                              i was deciding between the 2 as well and I finally got to listen to them both in the same setting. I brought some of my cds, the best of U2 and Maroon 5. The description of both speakers are just like how Aussie Geoff described them to be. With 805s being a little smoother and 705s with more present bass. The 705s were mounted on a some kinda wall shelf mount kit almost no space between the speaker and the wall, while the 805s were on the Nautilus stand and alot further from the wall. The dealer used Rotel CD player and a Rotel 2 channel receiver with no sub in the mix. With this comparison, I'd take the 805s because for a little bit more, I can get much more accurate music reproduction and with the sub that I want SVS PC+20-39 will provide all the bass that the 805s are lacking. With further improvements in electronics and amplification I have no doubt that the 805s will sound alot better than the 705s.

                              Comment

                              • kjell.h
                                Junior Member
                                • Sep 2004
                                • 7

                                #16
                                Originally posted by hired goon
                                G'day,


                                The bottom end still worries me, however. How many 805 owners out there use a sub for 2-channel?

                                -- Geoff
                                I am using signature 805 paired with ASW 850. This gives me two things. the clarity,detailed and crisp sound from the 805's and the impressive low bass from the 850.
                                It took me some time to set up but it was worth the effort. The 805.s are slightly toed in and the sub are located in the middle disappering completely.
                                Do not underestimate the 805's, they need lots and lots of power. :T

                                Comment

                                • hired goon
                                  Senior Member
                                  • Aug 2004
                                  • 226

                                  #17
                                  Originally posted by DrBoom
                                  ... I'm fully aware that a dedicated stereo amplifier (integrated or separates) make the 800 series sound much, much, much better than any HT processor I've ever heard.
                                  Bugger -- I've only got a Rotel RSP-1068. I thought I could get away with just getting a good 2-channel amp to drive the 805s. Now I find out I have to add a stereo pre-amp as well. These 805s are an increasingly expensive option.

                                  Actually, I have been thinking about a stereo pre-amp recently. I'm kinda leaning towards ditching multi-channel altogether and going back to 2-channel, as I'll never afford 6 decent B&W speakers, so I may as well just go for the best 2-channel I can afford: an 803 + pre + amp would be much cheaper than 1068+1075+805+705+HTM2+sub. Sigh.

                                  ... unless there is some way to hookup a multi-channel pre-amp and a stereo pre-amp to the same set of speakers? (please send private message if this is off-topic to B&W forum)

                                  -- Geoff

                                  Comment

                                  • sikoniko
                                    Super Senior Member
                                    • Aug 2003
                                    • 2299

                                    #18
                                    A 1068 would still require an extra power amp. I ran a 1055 w/ my 805's and htm2 and still enjoyed the combination. I really don't think you should let it get you down. You can always add extra power at a later time.

                                    OTOH, I have read that if you keep your main speakers at a somewhat close proximity, you can matrix them and go w/o a center as well. This would mean you could get a decent pre and amp that is multi-channel, get those 803's, and buy some cheap rears and that might be an alternative.

                                    You would want to add a center and a sub down the road, and upgrade your rears, but it might work out for HT and 2 channel music.

                                    It is kind of fun to try and look at all the different options you have w/ any given amount of money. When accumulating the alternative, try not to over look any.
                                    I'm just sittin here watchin the wheels go round and round...

                                    Comment

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