NO mention of B&W N801??

[tanwn]

hi, I'm surprised to see that there's no mention of N801 on this forum but alot of 802. Currently I own the N801 and am driving it with rotel 1090 with Nordost red dawn cables. Very neutral and fast sound albeit a bit lean in the bass department, due to Nordost? Any comments or recommendations, thanks. I'm a very very strong supporter of B&W fan.
Calvin from Singapore

my setup
Barco Cine7 cRT
B&W Nautilus 801 Front
B&W HTM2 centre
B&W matrix 802 rear
B&W ASW3000 sub

also own the following b&w: matrix 801S3, matrix 803S2, matrix 805

[DrBoom]

I can think of several reasons why a N801 isn't as well discussed as the 802.
I don't think many people can afford (or are willing to spend that much) the N801 and/or have the room and proper amplification to get the most out of it.
I'm sure the 801 is in every way superior to the 802, but it's a lot more difficult to get it that way.

Regarding your "lean bass" problem, I mainly blame the Rotel 1090, and maybe partially the Nordost cable.
The experience I've had with both these products, is that neither of them are known for their powerful bass.
I've had an RMB1075 powering my N804's, with almost no bass as a result.
And the bass that was present wasn't tight or controlled.
I've heard a LOT of people make the same comment about any amp in the Rotel range.
I know people who've had the 1090, 1095, 1075, you name it... but it always comes down to their limited ability regarding bass both in quality and quantity.
If you trule want something to take control of the bass and the entire speaker, I'd recommend something by Bryston, Parasound, Classé or Krell.
These are all excellent amps, all be it with their own sonic signature, that are miles ahead of Rotel poweramps in regard of dynamics, detail and sheer power.
I know the RB1090 has 380W of power at 8 ohms, but I can assure you there are others with less power that sound more controlled.
An 801 just begs for a lot of power, but like some tire manufacturer says "Power is nothing without control"
Try some Parasound JC1's, Krell FPB600, Bryston 7B's or Classé CAM350's.
I think you'll be pleasantly surprised, and listening doesn't cost a thing

If you find the Nordost cables to be the culprit (but the amp will be the largest improvement imo) I can recommend Kimber's Select range or even the normal 8TC bi-wired. (but I think the Select series is more in the same league as the N801)
I think Kimber has incredibly powerfull bass, definitely more than the Nordost Solar Wind I once tried.

btw, any particular reason you use the HTM2 with the N801 instead of the HTM1 ?

[tanwn]

I'm using HTM2 instead because of budget constraint and I'm using bass management crossover for centre at 50hz to main speakers for movie.
I don't really have any complaint with regard to rotel 1090 and nordost red dawn except for that ever so slightly lean bass, (accurate? perhaps?). The bass is definitely very very controlled and fast sounding, even rivalling some bookshelf.

[Blazar]

reasons nobody has 801's

1. the 801 is too big for starters...
2. I think the difference in sound from the 802 to the 801 is not liable to be huge.
3. 801 is more expensive
4. The 802's already sound amazing
5. 802's look better

why on earth did you spend the money on 801's and then get an htm2... this doesn't make sense to me unless you don't care much for movies.

[sikoniko]

I think it would be great if you would do a review on the 801's and what made you go with them. They are supposed to be great speakers, especially for music buffs that do not want to have a subwoofer in their audio.

[aarsoe]

Tanwn

I had the similar issue with my 1095 and my 801.3's.
Bt accident I tried an old Quad 606 power amp.
Rating is something like 140W - but the result was overwhelming.. Much more bass and also a much warmer sound.
The Quad amp was designed to drive Quad's own speakers that have been known to be the ultimate nightmare in terms of impedance. Bottom line is that the old 801 was and is difficult to drive and if your amp is not built for it, it will never sound as good as an amp that is.
Can not say if this is the same with the new 801, but I would not be surprised if it was so..

Oh - and if you want to test it, it should be pretty easy to find something similar to the 606 at very low price. I only paid USD500 for it..

Final comment on why people buy the 802 vs the 801. Lack of space. If you dont have a big room (or a heavyly accustically treated room) they will not sound good at all..

[DM3000 Owner]

Tanwn

I had the similar issue with my 1095 and my 801.3's.
Bt accident I tried an old Quad 606 power amp.
Rating is something like 140W - but the result was overwhelming.. Much more bass and also a much warmer sound.
The Quad amp was designed to drive Quad's own speakers that have been known to be the ultimate nightmare in terms of impedance. Bottom line is that the old 801 was and is difficult to drive and if your amp is not built for it, it will never sound as good as an amp that is.
Can not say if this is the same with the new 801, but I would not be surprised if it was so..

Oh - and if you want to test it, it should be pretty easy to find something similar to the 606 at very low price. I only paid USD500 for it..

Final comment on why people buy the 802 vs the 801. Lack of space. If you dont have a big room (or a heavyly accustically treated room) they will not sound good at all..

I am reviving this old thread. I am having a similar experience with a pair of N801's. I have a QSC 3002 rated at 550 wpc at 8 ohms, 900 at 4 and 1100 at 2 ohms. Teh input impedence on this amp is high (nemarically) and there is a mod that can be done to lower it, but I am afraid that I will stall have the same problem as the Rotel owner here.

I went to a local B&W dealer and their 802's sounded very bright and thin while their 805S's sounded full, rich and warm with plenty of bass.

What amps work with N801's so that at moderate to mid volume levels they have a nice full bass?

Thanks,

Chris

[Kal Rubinson]

I'm sure the 801 is in every way superior to the 802, but it's a lot more difficult to get it that way.

How is that possible when, aside from the LF, the speakers are the same? That means that the midrange and highs will be be same for the 800, 801 and 802 while the bass will differ. Whether one or another is better will depend on the particular room and you need a really large on for the 801, probably more than for the 800.

Kal

[DeepEndX]

I used to have the same speakers and power amp. After I switched the power amp to Krell, the N801 became alive. Rotel 1090 is a powerful amp, but you need a higher class amp to drive the N801. N801's are power hungry speakers with 15 inch bass driver, which require a lot of control from your amplifier.

My recommendation is try different power amps from your dealer such as Krell, Classe...etc and compare it to your rotel 1090. If you can't hear the differences, which I doubt, then consider yourself blissed.

Another setting you might want to consider is room accoustics. N801 needs more room than N800's.

Welcome to the endless world of upgrade agony!!

[kurtholz]

i agree with the other's, the Rotel is the weak link, it won't drive those speakers well, one of the best systems i have ever heard were a pair of 801 driven by a levinson amp,( not sure which one), the set-up was horrible to, speakers right up against the wall, junk all around the room, chairs in front of one of them, and it still sounded incredible,i use a bi-amped Krell for my 802d's, it sounds wonderful at low levels,with plenty of bass,

[dyazdani]

i agree with the other's, the Rotel is the weak link, it won't drive those speakers well, one of the best systems i have ever heard were a pair of 801 driven by a levinson amp,( not sure which one), the set-up was horrible to, speakers right up against the wall, junk all around the room, chairs in front of one of them, and it still sounded incredible,i use a bi-amped Krell for my 802d's, it sounds wonderful at low levels,with plenty of bass,

Sounds like the same setup where I heard them. They were in the main room of the store, not a listening room per say. Like you said, up against the wall surrounded by a multitude of other speakers and equipment. I think they used a 335 at the time.

For me, it's the size and shape that turned me away. I like the look of the 802s, more elegant IMHO.

[RNKC]

How is that possible when, aside from the LF, the speakers are the same? That means that the midrange and highs will be be same for the 800, 801 and 802 while the bass will differ. Whether one or another is better will depend on the particular room and you need a really large on for the 801, probably more than for the 800.

Kal

Not trying to disturb the peace here or anything but aren't the crossovers different between 802 & 801? Otherwise yes, I agree that mid & high are obviously the same between the two.

Having said that, Dad has Matrix 802 and Matrix 801. As far as I can tell, the mids and highs are the same betweeen the two but the 801 sound dramatically different (better) than the 802. Not sure if the difference in Nautilus or Diamond is as dramatic, but I'm sure there is a noticible difference between the two.

[Kal Rubinson]

Not trying to disturb the peace here or anything but aren't the crossovers different between 802 & 801? Otherwise yes, I agree that mid & high are obviously the same between the two.

Possibly/probably but only in the LF end for obvious reasons.

Kal

[PavelL]

I asked B&W a question once about differences between 801D and 800Ds - the answer I received was "The balance has to be slightly different... If I was being very critical you could say that the 800D is a little more revealing in the upper mids, but its very slight....I am afraid that we do not have measurements that are available outside of our R&D facility... " Could it be Stephen Baker meant upper lows?!?!?! I'm still perplexed. Slightly.

[Kal Rubinson]

Mebbe and I would expect the favorable balance to the 800D and, even more so, to the 802D. Frankly, the big 15" in the 801D should not be handling 350Hz or more.

Kal

[PavelL]

Frankly, the big 15" in the 801D should not be handling 350Hz or more.

Kal

the big woofer is crossed over at 350Hz - so why should it handle anything above 350? Then the question is "what is different in x-over configuration"?

[Kal Rubinson]

Crossovers are not brick-walls, at least in these speakers. So, first, 350Hz is too high already and, second, the woofer is still making significant sounds 1-2 octaves higher. This is more important than any small adjustments in crossover values.

Kal

[DM3000 Owner]

Crossovers are not brick-walls, at least in these speakers. So, first, 350Hz is too high already and, second, the woofer is still making significant sounds 1-2 octaves higher. This is more important than any small adjustments in crossover values.

Kal

That's very true. Even with steep slopes there is still a rolloff that takes several octaves. I bi-amped last night and when turning off the HF amp you can hear the woofer's rolloff.

I have a room question. My room is 19 feet wide and abotu 40 feet deep (open into the kitchen). Am I asking too much. I can get bass that shakes the room and it is very tight, but not like a subwoofer.

Chris

[PavelL]

Frankly, the big 15" in the 801D should not be handling 350Hz or more.
Kal

So, first, 350Hz is too high already and, second, the woofer is still making significant sounds 1-2 octaves higher.

I originally asked B&W about the 801D's huge woofer's integration with the mids... now I understand I should have asked if the mids-treble section of the x-over is identical in 800D, 801D and 802Ds. Power handling is different so...

[Kal Rubinson]

That's very true. Even with steep slopes there is still a rolloff that takes several octaves. I bi-amped last night and when turning off the HF amp you can hear the woofer's rolloff.

I have a room question. My room is 19 feet wide and abotu 40 feet deep (open into the kitchen). Am I asking too much. I can get bass that shakes the room and it is very tight, but not like a subwoofer.
Chris

Sure but it may take a lot of moving and treating. Like most rooms.

Kal

[DM3000 Owner]

Sure but it may take a lot of moving and treating. Like most rooms.

Kal

I have the problem solved. I am using QSC amplifiers and there were a few problems.

One - my tube preamp (Juicymusic Peach) has two output stages. One, the "HiZ" mode uses a single tube and has an output impedance of about 47,000 ohms. Perfect for tube amps but not that good for SS. The other mode is a "LoZ" mode that uses a second gain stage and has an output impedance of about 90 ohms (along with the ability to output about 15 volts) that is suited for solid state and long cable runs. Because the QSC has an input impedance of 6,000 ohms unbalanced, I needed to use the LoZ mode. That helped with the "punch" quite a bit. But things still were not right.

Second problem - I had the stock Yugoslavian tubes. I switched to a 1964 Amperex white lable PQ in stage one and two Sovtek 6922's in the second stage. The bass fattened up quite a bit. Still really tight but a lot more so that they speakers now sound balanced.

Three - not really a problem. I spoke to an engineer at B&W and he said that the QSC's should have no problems driving the N801's. I was using a PLX 3002 (550 wpc from 20 to 20K - the "clean measurement" compared to a 1 kHz burst tone) that drove them very well.

I have an RMX 4050HD here on loan that I am using that is a really beefed up version of their amps that has oversized voltage rails and additional capacitors in the power supply. It is rated at 800 wpc at 8 ohms. This is a very nice combination. I do need to try the 550 wpc again as all of the tubes are now thoroughly warm to see if the amps sound about the same.

[bigburner]

Currently I own the N801 and am driving it with rotel 1090 with Nordost red dawn cables. Very neutral and fast sound albeit a bit lean in the bass department, due to Nordost? Any comments or recommendations, thanks.

Lean bass could be due to a number of things but your speaker cables are the least likely cause, unless they're 100AWG (i.e. very thin), 100 metres long and have corroded connectors. Copper is copper is copper. The properties of copper don't alter because it has a pretty coating and an expensive price tag.