centre channel problems

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  • kcsun
    Member
    • Jan 2012
    • 69

    centre channel problems

    My home theatre setup uses 803di as left and right and an HTM2Di as centre. My ongoing issue is that of intelligibility of speech. I do realise that actors do not speak "proper" any more and do not always face directly to the microphone when talking. (this is why animated movies are usually better in the speech department as the actor is speaking directly into the mike). I am getting increasingly frustrated that I have to turn the subtitles on although at 57 years old I also realise that my hearing is starting to tail off.

    At the moment I am using an Arcam AVR600 receiver (150w per channel) with channels 6 & 7 being used to Bi-amp the front left and right speakers. I then set up the system using the included Audyssey software and microphone

    I have been advised to invest in a separate amplifier to power the centre speaker as it is "underpowered" using only the Arcam amp (i.e. not Bi-amped). They are suggesting the Lyngdorf SDA2400 amplifier 400w + 400w to Bi-amp the centre

    1. Do I actually need an additional amp, can I not just turn up the gain of the centre to make it louder? What is the advantage of using the Lyng
    2. Will the soundstage change dramatically?
    3. If I disconnect the channel 3 amp from the centre speaker and then use the pre-out to connect to the Lyngdorf amp and then onto the centre speaker will the built in Audyssy software still work or do I setup the system by using my sound level meter?
    4. If I use the Lyng Amplifier will it sound "disjointed" across the front soundstage?
    5. Is the soundstage not as important when watching films as the centre speaker takes most of the dialogue and the left and right are mainly used for effects?

    What are your views???

    KC
    Arcam avr600, Sky HD 2Tb, Oppo 103D, Sony VPL-VW500ES, Phillips large Pronto pro remote
    B&W 803Di speakers, B&W HTM2Di centre speaker, B&W 7NT in wall rear speakers, B&W ASW1000 Sub
  • Audio_ElF
    Senior Member
    • Oct 2007
    • 271

    #2
    Just for correction, the Arcam doesn't use Audyssey which is a specific brand of automatic setup and room correction though there is a more basic room correction included in the AVR600.

    Right, having got that out the way...

    1. I would suggest you do just that as a first step ... Increase the volume of the Center speaker in the Arcam setup. If you have access to a sound level meter it's worth trying to check the levels manually: just see if the Arcam is creating a balanced front soundstage.

    3. Yes the auto setup will still work if you add an external amplification.

    4. It might do ... If the voicing of the Arcam and Lyngdorf amplifiers are significantly different you may find a issue with different sound quality.

    5. Soundstage is still important (IMO) and all three front speakers contribute to that soundstage.

    Comment

    • Kal Rubinson
      Super Senior Member
      • Mar 2006
      • 2109

      #3
      Are you using the Arcam AV888's automatic EQ? I had poor results with it and you might be better off trying a manual setup.
      Kal Rubinson
      _______________________________
      "Music in the Round"
      Senior Contributing Editor, Stereophile
      http://forum.stereophile.com/category/music-round

      Comment

      • madmac
        Moderator Emeritus
        • Aug 2010
        • 3122

        #4
        I agree with Kal in regards to doing a manual setup. There is an Android app called "Sound meter" that works extremely well as an SPL meter. Run the pink noise through each of your speakers and make sure they are all out putting the same volume. After that, if you still have center channel volume issues you can manually increase it's volume.

        The location of the center channel is critical as to how well it will perform. Putting it under the TV will give it more presence than putting it above it.

        Finally, there are some films that are just really poorly recorded in regards to vocals, where the actors just sound like they are whispering throughout the movie. It's extremely annoying !!
        Dan Madden :T

        Comment

        • kcsun
          Member
          • Jan 2012
          • 69

          #5
          Hi All
          Thanks for taking the time to reply as I find all this very frustrating when you spend good money on kit and it does not perform as it should

          Will try setting all the levels manually although I will wait till I find a film (chapter/couple of sentences) I cannot hear and then set it up and try to hear if there is any improvement.

          Any other advice always welcome

          KC
          Arcam avr600, Sky HD 2Tb, Oppo 103D, Sony VPL-VW500ES, Phillips large Pronto pro remote
          B&W 803Di speakers, B&W HTM2Di centre speaker, B&W 7NT in wall rear speakers, B&W ASW1000 Sub

          Comment

          • Kal Rubinson
            Super Senior Member
            • Mar 2006
            • 2109

            #6
            Originally posted by kcsun
            Hi All
            Thanks for taking the time to reply as I find all this very frustrating when you spend good money on kit and it does not perform as it should

            Will try setting all the levels manually although I will wait till I find a film (chapter/couple of sentences) I cannot hear and then set it up and try to hear if there is any improvement.

            Any other advice always welcome

            KC
            It is likely (but not certain) that Rotel set the levels and distances correctly, so my first test would be to simply turn off the EQ and fiddle with the center level to suit your ear.
            Kal Rubinson
            _______________________________
            "Music in the Round"
            Senior Contributing Editor, Stereophile
            http://forum.stereophile.com/category/music-round

            Comment

            • xyobgyn
              Junior Member
              • May 2009
              • 5

              #7
              Different approach

              Originally posted by Kal Rubinson
              It is likely (but not certain) that Rotel set the levels and distances correctly, so my first test would be to simply turn off the EQ and fiddle with the center level to suit your ear.
              I hate to present a different opinion when some experts in the field have responded....

              But I would approach this differently.

              In a perfect world, LCR and their amps are identical. In this case, the volume that results from the amplifier driving the loads will be "as expected" and will track nicely through different volume settings.

              Your set up strays from "perfect world" in two fundamental ways.

              First, although well matched, you don't have identical LCR. FINE. Work with it. I'm not suggesting you hang a AT screen, and go to an overhead PJ and get a third center channel that really matches your L&R ones.

              But, the first thing I'd do is put L&R on SIMPLE channels, not biamped L&R. Just put in jumpers, and run the L&R as you do the center in terms of amplification.

              Chances are you'll be thrilled, and calibrations will be much more linear through the volume ranges.

              Just one guy's opinion, worth what you paid for it as they say......

              Alex Lipowich

              Comment

              • Kal Rubinson
                Super Senior Member
                • Mar 2006
                • 2109

                #8
                Originally posted by xyobgyn
                But, the first thing I'd do is put L&R on SIMPLE channels, not biamped L&R. Just put in jumpers, and run the L&R as you do the center in terms of amplification.

                Chances are you'll be thrilled, and calibrations will be much more linear through the volume ranges.
                Good point. Somehow, the biamp setup eluded me and, you are right, it is always best to begin with the simplest, most basic configuration. After resolving that, one can move on to complexity.
                Kal Rubinson
                _______________________________
                "Music in the Round"
                Senior Contributing Editor, Stereophile
                http://forum.stereophile.com/category/music-round

                Comment

                • aarsoe
                  Senior Member
                  • May 2004
                  • 795

                  #9
                  Just adding my 2 cents based on experience.
                  1: As stated, always check any automatic settings created by a processor. At least use an SPL meter to check identical levels (should be 75 db slow weighted). You can get them cheap but even an app on your phone will give you a pretty good starting point. Distance is only related to delay in signal so that will not make the levels lower.
                  2: I always run the center channel 1-3 db higher than the reference 75 db. Now 3 db is a doubling in sound level but to my ears the result is much smaller than that. Some places I have increased it to 5 db before the whole sound picture was correct.
                  3: Your processor should have a noise generator being able to generate pink noise in each channel. Do that and run them back and forth between the different channels. What do your ears tell you in regards to levels and do they sound similar? Accustic can really create havoc in your setup, so trust your ears. Don't automatically trust the automatic output.
                  3: Using a 5 channel or 7 channel amp where front right and left is bi-amped will often result in those two channels "stealing" most of the juice leaving center channel starved. Try running front left and right as regular channels and then bi-amp the center instead. This should make it clear if lack of "power supply" is the issue..
                  Finally, I have really bad experience with HiFi sellers that emphatically state that buying this will solve all your problems...

                  Comment

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