better sound when louder

[KRC]

I checked older threads to see if my question is of rehashed thoughts, I could not find anything so here we go .... . Last night I was listening to Cassandra Wilson - Belly of the Son (a remarkable CD if I may throw that in) and on a whim turned up the volume a little more than normal. To set the stage, I have a pair of 703's for L/R powered by an Anthem MCA 50 fed from an Anthem AVM 50 all via very good cabling. My normal level is -35 db on the lcd screen and last night it was down or I suppose up to -26 db. Of course everyones equipment has different volume controls and lcd screens showing different information etc so it is hard for others to quantify levels other than it was significantly louder. After this long preamble, my issue, it seems that everything about the sound changed. Soundstage was firmer, image more exact and pronounced, depth and all the small things hidden in the back are now brought out. So what happens, nothing changed but the volume but it sounds like I just upgraded all my equipment.

Kevin

[mjb]

You'll appreciate a higher level to enjoy recordings with a large dynamic range... most stuff these days is compressed, so its nice to find an honest recording!

http://www.digido.com/honor-roll.html

[John22614]

Hey Kevin,

I've noticed the same thing with my 804's.....incidentally, also powered by an Anthem MCA 50. When I turn the volume up a bit above a moderate level, the music really comes to life. The sound stage gets deeper and sounds more like a live performance. Still sounds very good at lower volumes, but more impressive when louder. Too bad for me because I live in a town house with one common wall....so I try to keep it within reasonable limits. And, I still enjoy my system a lot even at moderate volumes.

John

[KRC]

I am glad that others have also noted this effect. Any reason for this effect, ie that extra current from the amp as the volume control goes up brings out the best in the speaker? I have my all time favourite disc being Jazz at the Pawn Shop where in the first minute and a bit you can hear people in the bar talking, you can hear the barmaid and tinkling glasses etc etc. I first noted this "Imaging" the first time I was in a high end store where I heard this on Thiel 5's and Mark Levinson electronics and fell in love with the imaging, soundstage and realism of well recorded music. If this musical effect is heard at a certain volume, then I would suspect the opposite is true when it gets to loud that you loose the good and it is just loud!!

Kevin

[Charlieu]

This is a reason that you want to make sure you properly size the speaker to the room. The drivers need a certain amount of power to reach their optimum performance. With too large of a speaker, that level can be painful. Too small of a speaker and you won't fill the room with sound.

[madmac]

This is a reason that you want to make sure you properly size the speaker to the room. The drivers need a certain amount of power to reach their optimum performance. With too large of a speaker, that level can be painful. Too small of a speaker and you won't fill the room with sound.

I agree!! There are a few things at play here. One is room size, and the other is speaker size, and then there is optimal volume (ie..power) that makes a speaker perform it's best. One thing is universal in my opinion, louder is always better than lower in most cases, if the room, the speakers, and finally your ears can handle it. In most cases, one notch up on the volume level can produce striking results sonically and equally disappointing results when lowered a notch. Too much and it can sound bad like walking into your average bar with a screeching loud bar band playing. 99% of all bar bands play way too loud for the room or their sound equipment!.

I like to play my music loud, but not so loud as it hurts my ears or that the speakers or the system cannot handle it.

Another interesting thing in regards to volume control is if your CD player has an adjustable volume output via it's analog outs. By lowering that volume and increasing the amp volume to compensate, you can get some interesting results sonically as well. In any event, getting the proper volume that optimizes your system sound is paramount and important. This is a good thread!!! :T

[John22614]

So, what this tells us is there's more than one sweet spot. There are at least two assuming everything else is dialed in nicely. The first is where you sit.....the second is volume.

And, couldn't agree more about some live performances being too loud. Some to the point of piercingly painful. Went to a Boz Skaggs concert last winter that was so hard on the ears, we had to walk out. Meanwhile, many in the mindless audience were cheering the performance like they just won the lottery. Couldn't wait to get home to listen to Boz on my sweet system. Felt much more connected to the music at home than I did there.

[madmac]

So, what this tells us is there's more than one sweet spot. There are at least two assuming everything else is dialed in nicely. The first is where you sit.....the second is volume.

And, couldn't agree more about some live performances being too loud. Some to the point of piercingly painful. Went to a Boz Skaggs concert last winter that was so hard on the ears, we had to walk out. Meanwhile, many in the mindless audience were cheering the performance like they just won the lottery. Couldn't wait to get home to listen to Boz on my sweet system. Felt much more connected to the music at home than I did there.

Agreed John!. I can't do the bar thing anymore. One of the most painful bar shows I ever saw was a tribute to the Eagles. I'm sure irreparable damage was done to my hearing that night!. I don't blame the band as much as I blame the sound man!. The dude must have been half deaf to crank it that loud. Nowadays, I wear hearing protection whenever I'm going to be in a potentially bad situation sound wise....bars....weddings....dances etc.

I like my music reasonably loud. Loud enough that the speakers are working to their potential and that I am involved in the music. Pain of any kind is NOT part of the deal. Besides, there's a difference between good quality loud and bad loud right?. My guess is most folks here in the forum have good loud when they want it!!. :T

[KRC]

Does that mean that salesman have known this since forever or do they just turn up the volume for music/movies and they figure everyone likes it loud. I wonder if this same observation with the volume will stand for all price points of equipment? So following what John and MADMAC are saying, if anything changes in the variables of volume, room, possible equipment changes will also chang the volume sweetspot?

Kevin

[Charlieu]

I'm not certain what the salesman's objective is, but the first thing I do is take the remote out of their hands. I do run through a variety of sound levels, but base my buying decision on what sounds best at the level I normally listen at.

Volume plays a big part in influencing the listener. That's why when comparing equipment, you will see reviewers mention that they took care to level match the components they are comparing.

The sweetspot is determined by the room and speaker placement, not by volume or component changes.

[madmac]

Does that mean that salesman have known this since forever or do they just turn up the volume for music/movies and they figure everyone likes it loud. I wonder if this same observation with the volume will stand for all price points of equipment? So following what John and MADMAC are saying, if anything changes in the variables of volume, room, possible equipment changes will also chang the volume sweetspot?

Kevin

Yes that is correct in my opinion. Every audio system based on room size, acoustical properties and dampening has it's own volume 'cap out'. Normally, the better the equipment and room acoustics is, the louder that 'cap out' will be.

Optimization of sound is another biggie!. Bass being a really big one. Bass management is critical in my mind. The better the bass management, the better the sound will be and the louder you can play it and have it still sound nice. :T

[TonyS55]

How a particular amp, speaker and room combo react to level changes is certainly a factor. However, there are other factors involved. One is the way we hear - which ties into the second factor.
First, our sensitivity to frequencies changes at different SPLs - most notably in the lower and higher frequencies. This is why you may have seen loudness controls on receivers of the past (which never worked very well primarily because they were fixed and not variable). It was an attempt to compensate for the loss in sensitivity of our hearing in the lower and higher frequencies at lower listening levels - i.e. low and high frequencies were boosted by the loudness control. Many years ago, a study of SPL and hearing sensitivity resulted in the publishing of the Fletcher Munson Equal Loudness Curve that A/Bs all frequencies to 1 kHz tones at given SPLs. It found that the low and high frequencies had to be boosted to sound equal in level to 1 kHz at lower SPLs and at higher SPLs these frequencies were more on par to 1 kHz without boosting. So when you listen at a low level and then turn it up, it will usually sound better because the frequency extremes become more audible. You are hearing frequencies that were not getting equal representation at the lower level.
Secondly, and this ties into the first, is the level that the music is monitored during recording, mixing and mastering. Think about it. The Fletcher Munson Equal Loudness Curve shows that the audio engineer's judgment on the recording will be biased by the level at which the music is monitored (of course their room, amp, speakers and their ears also play a rule but Fletcher Munson cannot be ignored). The sweet spot for listening level is certainly influenced by the very nature of the way we hear sound at different SPLs. And it is likely that when you monitor near the level that the engineers used, their mix will sound its best as long as your room and equipment work well at this level. Now if this level also falls in line with your preferred listening level - you have nirvana. :T

[John22614]

Tony, that is a spot on explanation and very well said. Now a days we have tone controls and of course a sub. But, I do remember the days of the loudness button in addition to the volume dial on my old Fischer receiver and using it often when playing at low volume. It definitely improved the sound, and I thought it was a pretty cool option.

[madmac]

Another small note and a recent trend I think might be happening..... I recently purchased a CD on line and thought the overall sound was quite 'thin'. However, I got a free mp3 download when I purchased the CD and the MP3 version is quite nice (Via my MP3 player and decent headphones). This phenomenon is quite weird and something that I have not seen in the past. It almost seems like when I'm listening it on my home system, that it was 'mixed' and mastered for MP3 format!!??. This, in my opinion is NOT a good trend in the audio recording industry. I hope this is not the case and that the full resolution version brings out the inadequate recording and that the Mp3 masks it somehow????.

[TonyS55]

I too am worried that an inferior format is killing CDs. Let's face it, the MP3/iTune market is so convenient that young people are either satisfied with the sound quality, don't care or wouldn't know the difference in sound quality. It is only a matter of time before the CD is dead. Hopefully, as download speeds increase, a lossless format will emerge and quality will not die with the CD. On the flip side, the death of the CD could be a good thing since it is a very old 16 bit technology. I would love to have 24 bit, 192k audio on something the size of an MP3 player. The fly in the ointment is copy right protection. High resolution audio formats would most certainly have protection just like Bluray - which would raise the cost to us. Burning copies for your own use would no longer be possible.

[KRC]

Interesting discussion ...... obviously many factors make great sound! Again it must depend on equipment. I have listened to the Casandra Wilson CD (via a Pioneer DVD player) and the same tracks via IPOD which is cradled in my Krell KID and driven via balanced (X Brand) cables to my Anthem processor. Night and day sound, so different and better that I could pick it out of a A/B lineup 100% of the time. Again back to topic, interesting by turning up the volume one notch, the sound snapped into focus.

Kevin

[madmac]

I too am worried that an inferior format is killing CDs. Let's face it, the MP3/iTune market is so convenient that young people are either satisfied with the sound quality, don't care or wouldn't know the difference in sound quality. It is only a matter of time before the CD is dead. Hopefully, as download speeds increase, a lossless format will emerge and quality will not die with the CD. On the flip side, the death of the CD could be a good thing since it is a very old 16 bit technology. I would love to have 24 bit, 192k audio on something the size of an MP3 player. The fly in the ointment is copy right protection. High resolution audio formats would most certainly have protection just like Bluray - which would raise the cost to us. Burning copies for your own use would no longer be possible.

Don't worry about that!!. Anything that is coded, can be decoded and decrypted!! :B