Height or wides for 802D.

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  • mal01
    Member
    • Apr 2009
    • 42

    Height or wides for 802D.

    Hey Guys,
    I need some advice on which speakers to get for height or wides and am not sure what to get. SCM-1 would work, but they are not available very often used. I have 802D, HTM1D, and DS8S for surrounds. Would 805S work? Is there an older speaker that could be had on Agon that i might not be aware of?

    Thanks.
  • mal01
    Member
    • Apr 2009
    • 42

    #2
    Pretty please!!! Can someone recommend height speakers to me?

    Thanks.

    Comment

    • Rod#S
      Senior Member
      • Oct 2010
      • 474

      #3
      I'm not very familiar yet with heights and wides as they compare to say the effect of surround back speakers but as an example if I had your speakers and were adding surround backs my choices would be the 803D, 804S and 805S in that order. I personally prefer having towers over book shelves so any of those options in theory should work well for wides. Now height's are a completely different story, wouldn't you have to be looking to in-ceiling speakers for those?

      Over on the AVS forums there is a member there running wides and his front configuration is 802Di, HTM2Di with 803Di' as the wdes. It looks very nice and I'm sure sounds amazing.

      How big is your room, HxWxD and how far apart are your 802D's from your HTM1D and how much room do you have between your 802D's and your side walls? I'm trying to visualize how much room you have to play with if you add wides either between the center and mains or mains and outer walls? I'm not sure where wides are supposed to be placed, is it between center and mains or beyond the mains?

      Thanks,

      Rod
      B&W 800 Diamonds (L/R), HTM2 Diamond (C), 802 Diamonds (SL/SR), Paradigm Signature Sub 25 (LFE), Reference Servo 15a x 2 (Stereo subs), Lexicon MC-12Bv5EQ SSP, Bryston 28B-SST2x 2, 7B-SST2x2, 4B-SST C Series, BDP-2, Oppo UDP-205, Pioneer Elite Kuro PRO-150FD, Furman SPR-20i, IT-Reference, Eastlink Maestro PVR, Xbox One & 360, PS3, Siltech Golden Ridge II, Ruby Hill IIx2, 330ix2, Kimber Kable PK10 Gold, Tonic, PBJ, Cadence, HD19e, HD19, OPT-1, HDSW 4x1, Ixos 6003, Harmony 1000

      Comment

      • mal01
        Member
        • Apr 2009
        • 42

        #4
        Hey Rod, I don't want to go with Diamonds, too much $$$, although I 804's might be doable. As far as heights go, your suppose to use direct radiators for those. My room is 20x30, my mains are 10.5' apart, another 4 to 5 feet to the side walls. Wides go out side the mains on a 60 degree angle to center.

        Thanks.

        Lee

        Originally posted by Rod#S
        I'm not very familiar yet with heights and wides as they compare to say the effect of surround back speakers but as an example if I had your speakers and were adding surround backs my choices would be the 803D, 804S and 805S in that order. I personally prefer having towers over book shelves so any of those options in theory should work well for wides. Now height's are a completely different story, wouldn't you have to be looking to in-ceiling speakers for those?

        Over on the AVS forums there is a member there running wides and his front configuration is 802Di, HTM2Di with 803Di' as the wdes. It looks very nice and I'm sure sounds amazing.

        How big is your room, HxWxD and how far apart are your 802D's from your HTM1D and how much room do you have between your 802D's and your side walls? I'm trying to visualize how much room you have to play with if you add wides either between the center and mains or mains and outer walls? I'm not sure where wides are supposed to be placed, is it between center and mains or beyond the mains?

        Thanks,

        Rod

        Comment

        • Rod#S
          Senior Member
          • Oct 2010
          • 474

          #5
          Thanks for the info. So your room is quite big and if wides are going outside of the mains, hmm, that doesn't seem to leave much room to the wall so placing say a 804S could be tricky, even a bookshelf speaker, not necessairly the 805S but any bookshelf may also be tricky to place properly. Are you using acoustic treatments? If so then that would go a long way in allowing the speakers to be placed close to the wall. So for wides, if you think you would adhere to the 60 degree angle to center how does that place them relative to the mains, more directly to the side or would they end up being to the side and a few feet beyond the mains, closer to the listener? I would hate to see them placed in such a position as to compromise the soundstage of the 802D's if they ended up being out and beyond. With such great speakers all ready for your mains and center I would hate to see that compromised in order to add the cool factor of wides. What do you listen to more of, music or movies? I'm guessing movies must be right up there to even be considering wides I would love to be able to experiment with a 9.1 or 11.1 setup myself.

          One thing that occurred to me which would make adding heights or wides (probably more so with the wides) a bit tricker than say surround backs is that because the speakers are up front and the ear would be better able to pick out differences in timbre matching you may be able to hear the subtle differences as sound pans across all of the speakers especialy if you are using different speaker manufacturers.

          B&W does make in-walls/in-ceiling so you would have that option available for heights which is good if you want to limit the speaker footprint. Like with the wides, is there a preferred installation position for heights? I mean is it suggested they go a certain height up the front wall or is the recommendation for in-ceiling and if so where in the ceiling, closer to the listener or somewhere in between the listener and screen? I have to imagine that regardless of placement, if going in the ceiling you wouldn't have to be too concerned with timbre matching which greatly increases your speaker choices. My thought on that is much like surround back speakers the ear may have a harder time localizing and focusing on sound from the ceiling.

          So do you have a preference of wides or heights or are you hoping to add both?

          Rod
          B&W 800 Diamonds (L/R), HTM2 Diamond (C), 802 Diamonds (SL/SR), Paradigm Signature Sub 25 (LFE), Reference Servo 15a x 2 (Stereo subs), Lexicon MC-12Bv5EQ SSP, Bryston 28B-SST2x 2, 7B-SST2x2, 4B-SST C Series, BDP-2, Oppo UDP-205, Pioneer Elite Kuro PRO-150FD, Furman SPR-20i, IT-Reference, Eastlink Maestro PVR, Xbox One & 360, PS3, Siltech Golden Ridge II, Ruby Hill IIx2, 330ix2, Kimber Kable PK10 Gold, Tonic, PBJ, Cadence, HD19e, HD19, OPT-1, HDSW 4x1, Ixos 6003, Harmony 1000

          Comment

          • kallagtunet
            Member
            • Jan 2008
            • 37

            #6
            Works well sonically and aesthetically:

            Comment

            • mal01
              Member
              • Apr 2009
              • 42

              #7
              Originally posted by Rod#S
              Thanks for the info. So your room is quite big and if wides are going outside of the mains, hmm, that doesn't seem to leave much room to the wall so placing say a 804S could be tricky, even a bookshelf speaker, not necessairly the 805S but any bookshelf may also be tricky to place properly. Are you using acoustic treatments? If so then that would go a long way in allowing the speakers to be placed close to the wall. So for wides, if you think you would adhere to the 60 degree angle to center how does that place them relative to the mains, more directly to the side or would they end up being to the side and a few feet beyond the mains, closer to the listener? I would hate to see them placed in such a position as to compromise the soundstage of the 802D's if they ended up being out and beyond. With such great speakers all ready for your mains and center I would hate to see that compromised in order to add the cool factor of wides. What do you listen to more of, music or movies? I'm guessing movies must be right up there to even be considering wides I would love to be able to experiment with a 9.1 or 11.1 setup myself.

              One thing that occurred to me which would make adding heights or wides (probably more so with the wides) a bit tricker than say surround backs is that because the speakers are up front and the ear would be better able to pick out differences in timbre matching you may be able to hear the subtle differences as sound pans across all of the speakers especialy if you are using different speaker manufacturers.

              B&W does make in-walls/in-ceiling so you would have that option available for heights which is good if you want to limit the speaker footprint. Like with the wides, is there a preferred installation position for heights? I mean is it suggested they go a certain height up the front wall or is the recommendation for in-ceiling and if so where in the ceiling, closer to the listener or somewhere in between the listener and screen? I have to imagine that regardless of placement, if going in the ceiling you wouldn't have to be too concerned with timbre matching which greatly increases your speaker choices. My thought on that is much like surround back speakers the ear may have a harder time localizing and focusing on sound from the ceiling.

              So do you have a preference of wides or heights or are you hoping to add both?

              Rod
              Hi Rod,
              I am using various panels and bass traps. The wides are outside the mains and several feet closer to the MLP. I think if i get the placement right and get the right speaker, it will be a very nice addition, and yes, my room is geared more toward movies, althought i do love music too.
              From what i have read, you`re suppose to use direct radiators for heights, i would like to try those at some time also.

              Thanks.

              Comment

              • mal01
                Member
                • Apr 2009
                • 42

                #8
                Originally posted by kallagtunet
                Works well sonically and aesthetically:

                http://www.dome-focal.com/
                Those look pretty cool, thanks for the link. Those suckers are pretty small, you still think they would work well though? would you use these for heights in you theater?

                Thanks.

                Comment

                • kallagtunet
                  Member
                  • Jan 2008
                  • 37

                  #9
                  Originally posted by mal01
                  Those look pretty cool, thanks for the link. Those suckers are pretty small, you still think they would work well though? would you use these for heights in you theater?

                  Thanks.
                  We use them as heights.

                  Little information/energy “matrixed” to the height speakers and crossing them over at 120 hz. They are not struggling even at thx reference levels. Sonically no problem in matching with the 802D when using Audyssey room correction. Have a second pair I will use as wides the day I get a pre that have 11 channels out (waiting for the Onk 5509….)

                  Comment

                  • mal01
                    Member
                    • Apr 2009
                    • 42

                    #10
                    Originally posted by kallagtunet
                    We use them as heights.

                    Little information/energy “matrixed” to the height speakers and crossing them over at 120 hz. They are not struggling even at thx reference levels. Sonically no problem in matching with the 802D when using Audyssey room correction. Have a second pair I will use as wides the day I get a pre that have 11 channels out (waiting for the Onk 5509….)
                    Interesting, I will put these at the top of the list, what amp do you use for them? You think they will work for wides? WOW. I would think a speaker closer to the fronts would be needed for the wides, I was leaning towards the 804s, but these would be a lot cheaper. I also figured I would need an XPA-2 for the 804 and a UPA-2 for the Focal, having four domes would cut down on the amp $$ also.

                    Thanks for the info.

                    Comment

                    • kallagtunet
                      Member
                      • Jan 2008
                      • 37

                      #11
                      Originally posted by mal01
                      Interesting, I will put these at the top of the list, what amp do you use for them? You think they will work for wides? WOW. I would think a speaker closer to the fronts would be needed for the wides, I was leaning towards the 804s, but these would be a lot cheaper. I also figured I would need an XPA-2 for the 804 and a UPA-2 for the Focal, having four domes would cut down on the amp $$ also.

                      Thanks for the info.
                      I have not tried them as wide channels yet so I can not give you any info on how that work. From my understanding there is not much energy in the wide channels either, but that remains to be tested....

                      I use the same amplification on all my current 9 channels (and I have two more in the rack waiting for 11 channels ready Onkyo Pre) 600 W monoblocks based on B&O ICE class D design.

                      A total overkill on both height and i assume wides :-D

                      I have tried with lesser amplification and it worked just as well.

                      Comment

                      • mal01
                        Member
                        • Apr 2009
                        • 42

                        #12
                        Originally posted by kallagtunet
                        I have not tried them as wide channels yet so I can not give you any info on how that work. From my understanding there is not much energy in the wide channels either, but that remains to be tested....

                        I use the same amplification on all my current 9 channels (and I have two more in the rack waiting for 11 channels ready Onkyo Pre) 600 W monoblocks based on B&O ICE class D design.

                        A total overkill on both height and i assume wides :-D

                        I have tried with lesser amplification and it worked just as well.
                        I have a pair of $100.00 of Polks hooked up for the wides driven by an Emotiva UPS-5 just to try them out, i can definately hear alot of information coming through, so i am very interested in hearing the difference with better speakers and amp. I might even try hooking up one of my 802`s with one of my XPA-1`s to the wide to see what it does.

                        The heights and wides seem to be very subjective, some don`t really think there worth it and some think they are great additions to their theater. It is really hard to know what type of investment to put into these without knowing quite what to expect out of heights or wides without doing some sort of experimenting like i am doing. Any chance of talking you into doing this also to get your thoughts? Unless your afraid of really like the wides and end up thinking, oh my gosh, i have to buy two more 802`s :B

                        Thanks.

                        Comment

                        • Rod#S
                          Senior Member
                          • Oct 2010
                          • 474

                          #13
                          If you are interested, I found the thread of the guy over on AVS that was running a wide setup. I think the picture of the system arranged for wides are on the 2nd or 3rd page.

                          B&W 800 Diamonds (L/R), HTM2 Diamond (C), 802 Diamonds (SL/SR), Paradigm Signature Sub 25 (LFE), Reference Servo 15a x 2 (Stereo subs), Lexicon MC-12Bv5EQ SSP, Bryston 28B-SST2x 2, 7B-SST2x2, 4B-SST C Series, BDP-2, Oppo UDP-205, Pioneer Elite Kuro PRO-150FD, Furman SPR-20i, IT-Reference, Eastlink Maestro PVR, Xbox One & 360, PS3, Siltech Golden Ridge II, Ruby Hill IIx2, 330ix2, Kimber Kable PK10 Gold, Tonic, PBJ, Cadence, HD19e, HD19, OPT-1, HDSW 4x1, Ixos 6003, Harmony 1000

                          Comment

                          • style
                            Super Senior Member
                            • Feb 2006
                            • 1562

                            #14
                            Hi Rod,

                            great speakers system but all this with a combo Denon?
                            10 channel y 200 watt??!?!?

                            tooooo much speakers, the only front need the Denon amplifier....

                            is nice wy you see a B&W new speaker setup but I don't believe that the sound will be so good like the money that you need the buy all......

                            style

                            Comment

                            • mal01
                              Member
                              • Apr 2009
                              • 42

                              #15
                              Originally posted by Rod#S
                              If you are interested, I found the thread of the guy over on AVS that was running a wide setup. I think the picture of the system arranged for wides are on the 2nd or 3rd page.

                              http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1273072
                              Thanks Rod, that is a great system he has. While i`m not yet too knowledgeable on wide setup, his look a little too close to the fronts to me. I have hooked one of my 802`s up to the wide and height channels(without the front hooked up, quick swap out) and each one sounded just like it did as the front, it really has me thinking i should do this and get as much speaker as i can.

                              Comment

                              • Rod#S
                                Senior Member
                                • Oct 2010
                                • 474

                                #16
                                Originally posted by style
                                Hi Rod,

                                great speakers system but all this with a combo Denon?
                                10 channel y 200 watt??!?!?

                                tooooo much speakers, the only front need the Denon amplifier....

                                is nice wy you see a B&W new speaker setup but I don't believe that the sound will be so good like the money that you need the buy all......

                                style
                                I agree, his setup looks incredible and the Denon SSP would perform wonderfully and I bet give any Lexicon, Classe, Anthem, etc. a run for their money but concerning the amp, if I was to make any changes I would be stepping up the power and replace the Denon 10 channel amp with separates. I would probably replace the one non B&W speaker pair with another pair of Diamonds :T
                                B&W 800 Diamonds (L/R), HTM2 Diamond (C), 802 Diamonds (SL/SR), Paradigm Signature Sub 25 (LFE), Reference Servo 15a x 2 (Stereo subs), Lexicon MC-12Bv5EQ SSP, Bryston 28B-SST2x 2, 7B-SST2x2, 4B-SST C Series, BDP-2, Oppo UDP-205, Pioneer Elite Kuro PRO-150FD, Furman SPR-20i, IT-Reference, Eastlink Maestro PVR, Xbox One & 360, PS3, Siltech Golden Ridge II, Ruby Hill IIx2, 330ix2, Kimber Kable PK10 Gold, Tonic, PBJ, Cadence, HD19e, HD19, OPT-1, HDSW 4x1, Ixos 6003, Harmony 1000

                                Comment

                                • Rod#S
                                  Senior Member
                                  • Oct 2010
                                  • 474

                                  #17
                                  Originally posted by mal01
                                  Thanks Rod, that is a great system he has. While i`m not yet too knowledgeable on wide setup, his look a little too close to the fronts to me. I have hooked one of my 802`s up to the wide and height channels(without the front hooked up, quick swap out) and each one sounded just like it did as the front, it really has me thinking i should do this and get as much speaker as i can.
                                  :B yeah it would be tempting but if you read through the thread you will see he had mixed results and found himself turning off the wides for certain things. I suppose since the technology is new the matrix decoders will probably need a generation or two to get things fine tuned. It's hard to say at this point if wides and/or heights are here to stay but I for one think it would ber very cool to have heights, that just gives you that extra immersion as sound no longer just pans around you but above you.
                                  B&W 800 Diamonds (L/R), HTM2 Diamond (C), 802 Diamonds (SL/SR), Paradigm Signature Sub 25 (LFE), Reference Servo 15a x 2 (Stereo subs), Lexicon MC-12Bv5EQ SSP, Bryston 28B-SST2x 2, 7B-SST2x2, 4B-SST C Series, BDP-2, Oppo UDP-205, Pioneer Elite Kuro PRO-150FD, Furman SPR-20i, IT-Reference, Eastlink Maestro PVR, Xbox One & 360, PS3, Siltech Golden Ridge II, Ruby Hill IIx2, 330ix2, Kimber Kable PK10 Gold, Tonic, PBJ, Cadence, HD19e, HD19, OPT-1, HDSW 4x1, Ixos 6003, Harmony 1000

                                  Comment

                                  • mal01
                                    Member
                                    • Apr 2009
                                    • 42

                                    #18
                                    Originally posted by Rod#S
                                    :B yeah it would be tempting but if you read through the thread you will see he had mixed results and found himself turning off the wides for certain things. I suppose since the technology is new the matrix decoders will probably need a generation or two to get things fine tuned. It's hard to say at this point if wides and/or heights are here to stay but I for one think it would ber very cool to have heights, that just gives you that extra immersion as sound no longer just pans around you but above you.
                                    Yes, in one sentence he says that the wides and heights add alot and create a more seamless integration with surrounds, and in the next, refers to reaching for the DSX button on dialog heavy two channel material. I think he is saying that most of the time he really prefers DSX and in some limited content, turns it to another mode.

                                    After playing around yesterday with my 802 on wide and height duty, i am leaning more toward the 804 for wide duty and either the 805s or the Focal linked above for height channels.

                                    Comment

                                    • kallagtunet
                                      Member
                                      • Jan 2008
                                      • 37

                                      #19
                                      Originally posted by mal01
                                      Thanks Rod, that is a great system he has. While i`m not yet too knowledgeable on wide setup, his look a little too close to the fronts to me. I have hooked one of my 802`s up to the wide and height channels(without the front hooked up, quick swap out) and each one sounded just like it did as the front, it really has me thinking i should do this and get as much speaker as i can.
                                      Interesting. Is the level the same as the main channels? I have not tried your experiment, but for the Height channel the level is much lower and in my setup you need to be real close to the height channels to notice them: They however contribute to “lifting” the sound picture higher up on the screen.

                                      Comment

                                      • mal01
                                        Member
                                        • Apr 2009
                                        • 42

                                        #20
                                        Originally posted by kallagtunet
                                        Interesting. Is the level the same as the main channels? I have not tried your experiment, but for the Height channel the level is much lower and in my setup you need to be real close to the height channels to notice them: They however contribute to “lifting” the sound picture higher up on the screen.
                                        The wides are level matched and i have run Audyssey Pro with them. All i did withg the heights is go into the setup and turn the heights on and hook it up, sounded just like if it was setup as a front, very full and loud. I didn`t have the front hooked up, so i don`t know if that made a difference or not.

                                        Comment

                                        • Rod#S
                                          Senior Member
                                          • Oct 2010
                                          • 474

                                          #21
                                          Originally posted by mal01
                                          Yes, in one sentence he says that the wides and heights add alot and create a more seamless integration with surrounds, and in the next, refers to reaching for the DSX button on dialog heavy two channel material. I think he is saying that most of the time he really prefers DSX and in some limited content, turns it to another mode.

                                          After playing around yesterday with my 802 on wide and height duty, i am leaning more toward the 804 for wide duty and either the 805s or the Focal linked above for height channels.
                                          Cool, those would all look really sweet and of course sound good too I checked out the Focal's via the link above and for heights they look like they would do the job very well if you choose them over the 805s. You definitely don't want a speaker that is too large/heavy if it's going to be sitting on a stand attached to the wall.
                                          B&W 800 Diamonds (L/R), HTM2 Diamond (C), 802 Diamonds (SL/SR), Paradigm Signature Sub 25 (LFE), Reference Servo 15a x 2 (Stereo subs), Lexicon MC-12Bv5EQ SSP, Bryston 28B-SST2x 2, 7B-SST2x2, 4B-SST C Series, BDP-2, Oppo UDP-205, Pioneer Elite Kuro PRO-150FD, Furman SPR-20i, IT-Reference, Eastlink Maestro PVR, Xbox One & 360, PS3, Siltech Golden Ridge II, Ruby Hill IIx2, 330ix2, Kimber Kable PK10 Gold, Tonic, PBJ, Cadence, HD19e, HD19, OPT-1, HDSW 4x1, Ixos 6003, Harmony 1000

                                          Comment

                                          • Rod#S
                                            Senior Member
                                            • Oct 2010
                                            • 474

                                            #22
                                            Originally posted by mal01
                                            Hey Guys,
                                            I need some advice on which speakers to get for height or wides and am not sure what to get. SCM-1 would work, but they are not available very often used. I have 802D, HTM1D, and DS8S for surrounds. Would 805S work? Is there an older speaker that could be had on Agon that i might not be aware of?

                                            Thanks.
                                            Hi;

                                            I am just checking in to see if you have gone ahead with your plans and added heights and/or wides and if so what did you decide on and how is it sounding? There are so few reports of people using heights and/or wides I never miss an opportunity to get people's impressions, especially B&W owners

                                            Thanks,

                                            Rod
                                            B&W 800 Diamonds (L/R), HTM2 Diamond (C), 802 Diamonds (SL/SR), Paradigm Signature Sub 25 (LFE), Reference Servo 15a x 2 (Stereo subs), Lexicon MC-12Bv5EQ SSP, Bryston 28B-SST2x 2, 7B-SST2x2, 4B-SST C Series, BDP-2, Oppo UDP-205, Pioneer Elite Kuro PRO-150FD, Furman SPR-20i, IT-Reference, Eastlink Maestro PVR, Xbox One & 360, PS3, Siltech Golden Ridge II, Ruby Hill IIx2, 330ix2, Kimber Kable PK10 Gold, Tonic, PBJ, Cadence, HD19e, HD19, OPT-1, HDSW 4x1, Ixos 6003, Harmony 1000

                                            Comment

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