Ready to upgrade, Need advice.

[stuofsci02]

There is no hard and fast rule on age, but I would have a preference for newer equipment.

If you like the sound of the Rotel reciever then you will definately be able to improve on that with some two channel Rotel gear.

What were they using as a source and how was it connected?

[Uav83]

They hooked both up directly to a higher end Sony Bluray pretty much how I have mine set up. It was connected with high end L/R cables for me.

[stuofsci02]

Just keep listening to different things.

BTW, where are you located?

Stuart

[Uav83]

Tampa, Fla.
Yeah, the main thing I wanted to know was A) Is used okay? and B) Receiver or Components.
Once again, you have offered valuable advice (Which I appreciate more than you know) and I shall continue the search over the weekend!

[stuofsci02]

Tampa, Fla.
Yeah, the main thing I wanted to know was A) Is used okay? and B) Receiver or Components.
Once again, you have offered valuable advice (Which I appreciate more than you know) and I shall continue the search over the weekend!

I would definately either go with an integrated stereo amp, or stereo separates.

Since you are in the States you can make good use of Audiogon for high end used equipment and save a ton of money.

Good Luck!

[miner]

Seperates. I suggest a tube preamp and SS amp.

[stuofsci02]

Seperates. I suggest a tube preamp and SS amp.

Even for someone new to this?

[Briz vegas]

Short answer is yes!

I have a friend that is into Jazz and plays bass - is that a strat I see in your room Uav83 :-)

He loves his tube bass amp so he asked me about tubes for his first "proper" stereo. It was partly due to him that I got a Laney tube amp when I took up guitar last year.

Long story short, he got a Jas tube integrated (the one below the massive array) after auditioning a few options at a good 2 channel store here in OZ. 18mths on he still loves it. He got an Audiolab CD player, the Jas amp and some little Quad 11Ls. The amp was worth more than double the original price of the speakers (speakers were on run out).

I think you are doing the right thing. Second hand is good but don't pay too much for 20year old gear. Naim are one of the few companies that support their gear almost regardless of age and they recommend refurbishment (replacing capacitors etc) after about 10 years as they start to degrade. The Naim forum is full of guys saying how much better their Naim factory refurbished gear now sounds. I was given a 30 year old Nakamichi 100w power amp for free and it only took a few months use before it failed and had to be rebuilt.

Keep auditioning gear and let us know how you go. The "peanut gallery" here (me included) love living vicariously (and its less stressful than spending your own money


PS This is off topic but I just this second downloaded some free CAS 2010 downloads from Blue Coast Records. The Jason McGuire tracks in 24bit 96khz are pretty cool if you like acoustic guitar - recorded live with no compression. i am going to download a few more of these sample tracks.

[Uav83]

I will definitely keep everyone updated on my findings.
Yeah, It's a custom 67' Strat. I was on tour for a while and currently a guitar teacher and hired studio musician. Jason McGuire is has some serious talent. You may want to buy a few tracks from "Candyrat" records. Guys like Andy McKee, Antoine Dufour, and Stefano Barone have SUPER high quality recordings. Also, a more relaxed classical guy named Andrew York who I studied under has some amazing stuff out there as well! Check some youtube stuff out from them, see what you like!

[Briz vegas]

Thanks for the tips. Radio is not so good as a source of new music ideas these days, particularly as my taste has evolved (and I have gotten crustier). Thats where forum tips come in to helP fill the void. I'll have to check those guys out :T

[Uav83]

Alright, so here was my first take home audition piece. It's the Rotel RSX-1067. I don't know why but of all that I have heard thus-far, this has been the smoothest most natural sound i have heard. I have also tried B&K Reference 70 as well as a Carver. Any thoughts on where to go from here?

[stuofsci02]

I would try other Rotel Gear of the stereo variety.. I did not like their Class D amps however (so keep that in mind in case you audition something from Rotel that you think should be better then it is).

There is also Cambridge Audio, NAD, Arcam in similar price range to name a few.

[wettou]

Forget Class D that is nasty, even B&O inventors of the ICE module use it only in their bass module and use class A/B for mid and high That ought to tell you something :W

In the mid level go with Emotiva XPA-1 :T

[Briz vegas]

The most different thing for contrasting with a D class receiver is a tube amp. You can get away with tubes with your speakers and a tube amp would be brilliant with 805d in the future. Frankly it would also be way cooler ( not literally however ).

How about a macintosh 275? I have heard from a couple of current owners that love them. There is a 2007 review online at the stereophile site if you need convincing that it would be worth an audition. It's a power amp but I am running my amp in that configuration without a traditional pre, as You can see from my signature.

[mrciave]

Hi uav83,

since you got plenty of US/AUS advice, I thought to give you some old Europe opinions (just to confuse you a bit more ).

Since you play, love and understand music, I'd say that you might appreciate dynamics, full range and sound with a body, rather than hyper detailed, esoteric but unreal/thin sound. If I guess right, stick with floorstanders and solid state amps, bookshelf speakers and tube amps (at least consumer ones, the pro world is another story) are not for you. Full frequency range and dynamics are the first ingredient for somebody used to live music!

I've been listening for 15 years on bookshelf speakers, driven by a small Rotel integrated and a Marantz CD player. Even though room plays a role, my small system changed 7-8 houses and still you could recognize it at first glance. A room can't make your system better or change it (but for sure it can make it worse).

On the other way, nowadays you can get excellent floorstanders that perform well with reasonable components behind, and I guess if I'd be 18 years old again, I'd go for CM8 or even 683 instead of my bookshelves, no matter the quality. But the 80-90s were the time of shoe boxes .

So, you might keep your speakers or go for a pair of CM8, but definitely stay away from 805Di. Even though they perform reasonably with low-and-mid-fi gear behind, they are still part of the 800 Di series, meaning they deserve and are inflexible with less than excellent components behind.

Anyway, I'd say that you could go for an integrated 2ch amp (I don't see the need for separates at this stage, I drive even my 802D with an integrated, you save on cables), and definitely Rotel and NAD could be good choices. In the past, I remember comparing Rotel 930BX versus NAD 3020, the Rotel being more musical, the NAD more dynamic. Not sure if this difference is still there, but maybe the brand sound did not change that much.

Then, as for the source... I'm a romantic and like to change the discs in my player, but bought a CD with digital inputs to start the transition into the new era of "liquid music" (that's how Italian press calls it ??????). Remember that a must for computer players is a bit-exact reproduction (meaning, no volume control on your laptop, shoot the bits out of the USB/digital output as they are on the file), while I'm still doubtful about DACs stuck in amplifiers, laptops, everywhere...

And as a warning, remember that in this hobby many guys confuse "component matching" with "+/- correction". Rather than trying to correct a bright source with a mellow amplifier (and cables bla bla bla), better to get neutral components all the way.

Hope this helps.

Andrea

[Uav83]

Stu,
I would love to audition more amps, but unfortunately the store I have been dealing with does not let you take new items home to audition, only used. And I would be hesitant on buying without hearing them on MY speakers. Again, they have their audition rooms at the stores PERFECTLY set up and everyone on here has said that makes such a massive difference. I would be concerned to get new gear home and have it sound nothing like it did at the shop!

Does anyone know any websites (although I prefer to not buy off a mega store) that will give you an audition period?

-Thanks!

[stuofsci02]

Uav83,

I agree.. I would suggest finding a new store if the one you are dealing with does not let you take home a demo unit to try.

I would really suggest giving Emotiva a try. They have a 30 day audition period after which you can keep the gear or send it back and only be out the shipping. They have excellent gear at amazing prices.

Wettou has suggest the XPA-1 from Emotiva in an above post. This is their top of the line mono-block amp (500 watts into 8 ohms and 1000 watts into 4 ohms). Definately a great amp.

I had also suggested their smaller mono-blocks (the UPA-1) with their Pre-Amp (USP-1) and their DAC (XDA-1) as a great combo. As you can see from my signature I have a USP-1 and also some Emo Subs. If you like a nice CD player too they have the ERC-1 but if you have the XDA-1 DAC you can run other digital souces into it.

Really, I think you can put together quite a fantastic system even with simple Emotiva gear. If you really want that last 10% then that is when you will go and spend the big bucks on exotic gear.

Not that I believe everything I read (especially reviews) but here is some reading:

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/preamplifiers/689-emotiva-usp-1-stereo-preamplifier.html

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/power-amplifiers/520-a-secrets-power-amplifier-review.html

[Briz vegas]

Mr ciave, part of the reason why folks like reading forums is to hear peoples experiences with gear that they may never get to hear. It the same reason I joined an audio club, to hear more gear. I have heard tubes with plenty of dynamics ( for a stereo) and solid state that was anything but, it all comes down to matching gear and implementation. I think our OPs biggest hurdle is his dealer.

Taking speakers to the store is probably the next best thing to a home demo but I would be looking at other dealer options as well. One way to be successful in business is to understand your customer and people "upgrading" like to know that they will get a performance improvement.

[Uav83]

Agreed,
there very few stores around here for high end audio unfortunately. Most of them had to close with this most recent U.S. recession. I was a SoundAdvice customer before they folded. The only other specialty store around here has hardly anything in store, as it is all done through custom/special orders. I have set up a day next week for them to come pick up my speakers and take them to their shop and set them up for a few demos. Being new at this, I guess I didn't realize what a task this truly was as far as pairing speakers up with components.
I had one other question though, people keep referring to me as an "OP" and was wondering what that meant?

[stuofsci02]

Original Poster...

[bigburner]

Why is it such a bad idea to upgrade my components for these speakers, even if I end up swapping these out in the near future? Why would anything change at that point with my new components if I upgraded my speakers down the line? Wouldn't I still want a very nice set of STEREO components? Would new top of the line components not work well with upgraded speakers? Am I missing the boat on this one!?

No you're not missing the point. Like other posters I believe that the greatest improvement will be achieved by upgrading your speakers. The recommended strategy is therefore to improve your speakers now and upgrade your other components over time as money permits to match your new speakers. This strategy will result in you enjoying the biggest improvement sooner rather than later.

Nigel.

[Uav83]

See, this is where I am confused. If I upgrade speakers now, and keep my current components, is that not the same as buying a top of the line 1080p tv and hooking it up to a VCR with the free cables that were included?
I would think that a higher end speaker, on my current set up would sound even worse?
However, If I upgrade my components, I could get my current speakers really singing and then when I am ready to upgrade speakers the new components would be able to drive them. This is at least my understanding, please, correct me if I am mistook.

[stuofsci02]

Uav83,

I suggest you again post what electronics you are using (with model numbers) just to confirm that people are actually taking this into consideration.

While speakers are always worthwhile upgrade to make. There is no way you would upgrade speakers you have and keep the electronics you have long term, so you might as well look at the electronics now and change speakers when you feel you need more then what you have.

Have a look around this forum and see how many people are running a stereo setup with $3000+ speakers on a 11 year old HT reciever that was $800 when new and can be had used for less then $150 now. I'll bet you will find none. This is in no way a shot at your reciever, but rather an observation.

I remember you indicated that you looked at a used Rotel Reciever. I am not sure if you tried it at home, but if you found the improvement that it made worthwhile, then this is just the tip of the iceberg for what a modest investment in electronics will do for you.

[realhifi]

That Rotel is a good piece. It is multi channel though and I thouhgt that you were looking for music mainly. The plus side is that it has digital inputs so you can easily use Squeezebox, Apple TV, whatever digital out into it. You could do a lot worse than looking at the Rotel if it is a great deal.

[Uav83]

Stu,
That's what I thought. Here is the entire story "if you chose to read it."
As I said in a previous post, I was a sound advice customer and was set up with these B&W CDM7se and a B&K Reference 30 with a B&K amp. The B&K's are sitting in my closet due to the Reference acting up. I was honestly, pretty pleased with that set up. I went in the store, told them I was completely new to the game, and what I was looking to achieve. I felt he paired me up just fine for a first time buyer without breaking the bank.
I subsequently bought the ADA Cinema Reference and put it with my old Onkyo (I USED JUST FOR THE AMP) I had laying around to get me though until I found new equipment.
I did get to take the Rotel home (picture above) and noticed a MASSIVE difference and was truly amazed with that. After hearing it, I have almost convinced myself to buy it and keep it for now so when I move, I can add a few speakers and have a theater room.

Again, Current Equipment
ADA Cinema Reference Pre/Pro
Onkyo TX DS-676
Yamaha 5disc
Monster Power Conditioner
Apple TV

[Uav83]

P.S. If I did a home theater in my next place, I would save up a bit more and get an entirely new stereo set up.

[Briz vegas]

That is the upgrade path that I took.
705, NAD DVD and Marantz receiver(7300 OSE)..........which sounded no better than my cheaper NAD receiver, to
804 and Marantz receiver with a nakamichi 100w power amp (via pre out), then tried a CD player but it did not improve things so it went back,
added a tube pre-amp, started with cables, same CD player now sounded better,later replaced pre with current amp, more cables, room treatment, dedicated power, more cables, more room treatment, gear, isolation, vibration control, CD replaced with DAC, digital pre, lots more vibration control.

The early 804 setups did not really deliver. They were better than the 705 setup in some respects but the fullness, detail and lack of grain I was looking for were not there and the sound was not cohesive - it was not nice to turn up at all. Mind you the first thing I noticed when moving to this house was that the stereo sounded awful, which over the years turned out to be the power and the room and the rotting cables I was using (I was so anti cables that I had 10 year old "green" copper speaker cable, no wonder it was awful, make sure your cables are not rotting).

Fact is that every component plays a part. If your chain is delivering junk then the speakers can only play junk. If you have pretty good speakers however you will hear what is going on, more so with better speakers. If you add demanding speakers like mine too early you can go backwards.

Despite some frustration along the way i was always getting slightly better sound.

I will say that my system currently (with the old 804s that many folks said "skip" or "don't bother with") sounds way way better than the dealers 804di (everyone seems to love, including my dealer) simply because mine are fed by a more highly tuned setup in a treated room - (they use a Meridian GO8 and Electrocompaniet amp which would be in the same $$$ ball park as my gear).

Because every system is different you have to work out which weak link needs replacing first to maximise results.

[stuofsci02]

If you want to eventually go HT, then that Rotel is a great piece and should serve you well. If you prefer to stay stereo I would pass on the recievers and go straight stereo gear.

I am just finishing off my listening room and HT in the basement of my house, and I only have my Stereo Gear down there now. That is my Oppo 83SE my stereo preamp and my Chord Power amp.. (you can see pictures in the last couple of pages of the B&W photo thread).

I am so hooked on this setup, I thought for a second (and maybe only a second) that I would keep the setup stereo only. Even for movies this is amazing. Of course I will still go 5.2, but my preamp has HTbypass, so when I do listen in stereo I am back to just the 3 components (source, preamp, amp)..

[wettou]

I want to try Audyssey DSX or DTS Neo:X when it comes out

11 B&W 805Di and two DB1 subs :T

[mrciave]

Did I read a post in which the OP is thinking at maybe going for a HT setup in the new house? This forum is addictive... :lol:

Uav83, I think you should figure it out before anything else whether you'd like to go the stereo or HT route. The very simple and basic maths are that a certain budget on stereo only (if well spent, of course) will necessary deliver better stereo performance than the same budget on an HT setup (well spent again). So decide this first and stick to it if you are on a tight budget.

Then, I fully agree with what Briz says. All the details and accessories are so important. Vibration control especially (as you can see in my system, lots of Finite-Elemente stuff over there). To the point that I would suggest to buy a proper high-end electronic tables first. You do an investment now, you keep it forever. And any piece of gear that will populate your chain from now on, it'll shine at the best of its potential.

Just simple maths again, but my Esoteric SA-50 (5.500EUR list price) on the table (around 4.000EUR list price) sounds definitely WAY BETTER than a friend's Esoteric X-01LTD (15.000EUR list price) on my living room furniture. Sure it would seem crazy to spend big money on the table before upgrading the electronics, but who knows? Go for 3.000USD table + 2.000USD amp, keep the speakers and put the remaining 2.000USD in cables.

Andrea

[Uav83]

Alright, I really appreciate everyone's advice and all your help over the past few weeks!

I had my appointment today at the shop with MY speakers and found a mind blowing pair for my B&W's.

I am now the proud new owner of a McIntosh C46 Stereo Pre and the McIntosh MC2102 Tube Amp.
Did I go over budget? Yes. But this will be a perfect set up when It's time to upgrade my speakers!

And for those wondering, I bought the Rotel as well, I think I can have a LOT of fun with that!

-Dan

[stuofsci02]

Dan Congrats!!!

Now you have jumped right into the thick of it. Stereophile did a review of the MC2102 with a set of CDM9 NT, so you are not too far off.

Please tell us how much better your CDM7's sound now...

[Briz vegas]

Congratulations, I may even be a little bit jealous, although I love my cj. Expect to see some photos and some improvements in you room setuP such as a wall hanging doe the wall behind your head and pull those speaker out a bit.

Enjoy!

[stuofsci02]

I think once you buy those components you just say "to hell with room functionality". I know I would be setting up my room for 100% listening, even if it meant putting everything out into the middle of the room

[mrciave]

Congratulations! Blue vu-meters are always great!

[realhifi]

Alright, I really appreciate everyone's advice and all your help over the past few weeks!

I had my appointment today at the shop with MY speakers and found a mind blowing pair for my B&W's.

I am now the proud new owner of a McIntosh C46 Stereo Pre and the McIntosh MC2102 Tube Amp.
Did I go over budget? Yes. But this will be a perfect set up when It's time to upgrade my speakers!

And for those wondering, I bought the Rotel as well, I think I can have a LOT of fun with that!

-Dan

That amp is awesome. The one thing that McIntosh has done so well over the years is to manufacture great tube amps.

[dknightd]

Geeze, read the whole thread, was ready to give my input, then found at the end you bought something you like. Buying something you like is key

I was going to ask if you use the sub for stereo - my guess is not based on your choices.

Then I was going to ask how you got your laptop signal to the preamp. If you are using the analog output you likely have more room for improvement.

If you are willing to treat your room you likely have more room for improvement.

[Uav83]

Haha, Thanks for the comments guys! I will take pictures once I get everything hooked up and re-arranged!
I like Stu's method of tossing room functionality out the window and will most likely be going that rout!

[htsteve]

Dan,

Welcome to the B&W and Mac club. I am not surprised by your observation.


Enjoy that setup!