Ready to upgrade, Need advice.

[Uav83]

Hey all,
I am getting ready to upgrade my current audio system and could use some advice on which way to take it.
I am a HUGE music lover, I RARELY use my set up for movies. I want to stay with stereo set up.
I currently have B&W CDM-7 SE, ADA Cinema Reference pre/pro, Onkyo amp, Polk sub. This was my first major system I have ever owned so go easy on me!
I am a younger guy, so It is important for me to stay in my budget of $7,000.
I have included a picture of my current set up so you can see the room. Any advice would be greatly appreciated!!

[stuofsci02]

Hi Uav83,

Welcome to the forum. Nice setup! The CDM-7 SE are a fine speaker.

Do you mind indicating the models of your electronics? Also what do you use as a source.

Cheers,

Stuart

[Uav83]

The ADA is listed as just the Cinema Reference for the model number, the Onkyo is a TX- DS676 which I am only using for the power. I know this is not the ideal set up and would love to get the most out of my B&W's. If the speakers are sufficient for my needs what would be a smart move as far as a pre/pro and amp combo?
I mainly use my Laptop for the source or the CD player I have on top on the Onkyo. As I said before, I don't want to get CRAZY with my set up, but I think I am due fore an appropriate upgrade.
Thanks for the interest!

[baniels]

I imagine you can do some pretty good damage with 7K. Do you have any specific goals with the upgrade?

[Uav83]

I think that my current system is being held back. My goal is to get the most out of these speakers as possible and give them the proper components they deserve. Because I am new to this and rarely upgrade, I am not sure of what all is out there to make these speakers live up to their full potential. I bought all of these items new back in early 2000, but do not think I was given the proper advice.

[stuofsci02]

If you goal is good two channel setup my suggestion would be to focus on two channel electronics. This will make life simple and get you the best sound. Even expensive HT electronics (recievers etc.) will not sound as good as cheaper two channel gear.

My initial advice would be to start with a good two channel amp (or two mono amps), and good analog pre-amp (not a pre/pro), and a decent DAC that you can run your laptop and digital output on your CD player to.

If you get a pre-amp with HT bypass you can integrate your existing HT equipment for movies/TV.

The speakers you have now are fine for a modest hi-fi setup.. Until you are ready to really go nuts I wouldn't be in a rush to change them out.

You have a nice budget to do these things, but don't feel like you need to spend it all. I think you could match the level of your speakers quite nicely without spending all of it.

On the cheaper end of equipment there is Emotiva. They are internet direct and have excellent equipment for extremely good value. I highly recommend them and have found their products to be good enough to use with even much more expensive gear when you are saving for the next upgrade. Within this range you might consider the following Emotiva products:

2 x UPA-1 amplifiers
1 x USP-1 preamp w/ HT bypass
1 x XDA-1 DAC
Cables as required.

Believe it or not you would only be looking at about $1800 for the stuff above and you would see a major improvement.

Of course from there you can goto others like Parasound or Rotel etc. which will be a little more expensive and may not sound much better then the Emotiva stuff.

I think after that you would be jumping into the Mac, Classe, Krell, Chord, Bryston, SimAudio and other elite brands which will become very expensive very fast. My suggestion would be to start in an affordable range and enjoy the major improvement you will get and then when/if you decide you want better you will need to really invest some time in auditioning and researching high end gear (it won't be cheap). It looks like now you are right at that point on the curve where you can have a very nice system without spending much more money. After that small incremental improvements will likely cost a lot more money..

Also, from your picture it may look like repositioning your speakers could have some major benefit. Let me know if you are willing to do this and I am sure many people will be able to make good suggestions.

Cheers

Stuart

[Uav83]

Stuart, I sincerely appreciate the advice, and I have already started looking into that set up. I am not opposed to spending more however if there will be a appreciable difference due to the fact I will not upgrade again for 5-10 years. I want to be super happy with this next upgrade. So is that still the way to go?
Also, I am not adverse to rearranging my speakers at all. Again, I want to get the most out of my speakers s possible.

[Briz vegas]

Hi Uav83! I knew a uav83 at school : )

Ok bad jokes aside, welcome to the mad house.

This place does tend to be a little HT and gear focused but there are a good range of opinions, just take a step back and take in as many as you can. My personal bias is spending too much and trying to extract the best from what I have component wise, which has kept me very poor for years. Your buget is a good way to start but the danger is that you will get to the end and still not be satisfied. You are lucky living in the us (I assume) as 7 grand buys about 4 grands (edit bad maths) worth of gear in Australia despite our dollar being at parity with yours.

I am at least on your music first wavelength. It is very subjective but can you describe what you listen to and what you like about the sound you are getting? Also what do you feel you are missing?

Are you looking for greater detail? Do you want a fuller sound? Do you listen to alot of acoustic instruments and vocals? After you looking for great imaging and a big soundstage or do you like a sound that simply communicates the message of the music. This will help us a little but I have found that you can rarely change one aspect without implications for other attributes. The balance (synergy) in the sound must be to your taste and must be consistent with your musical taste. I can guarantee that every change you make will sound slightly different on every recording and there can be a swinging effect with each change; I have found an album will sound more harsh, then I will make a further change and it will sound better than it ever did.

If you can find a sound that you love ( with your music, new music almost always sounds better ) and work towards that by working out what you system is missing. It's hard to do and everyone has a different opinion on how to get there.

What does strike me looking at your setup is that this looks like a typical brochure shot, everything is neat but you have alot between your speakers, gear is near the wall, you don't seemed to be using anything under your components. Options for changes are endless ( unfortunately ) like :

1. A good turntable and phono stage like a scout or a well tempered simplex could make you fall in love with music all over again - many are addicted to this sound.

2. Valve amps or a valve preamplifier. Once again you could be in heaven.

3. Room treatments and vibration control. Let's be honest this is not " sexy " and the other half will not like it but it can give you more detail , better bass , manage harshness.

There are many more paths you could take, but listen to as many options as you can and maybe even a few others guys systems, you will find that every system is unique.

Has that scared you off yet :-)

[Uav83]

Haha, It has not scared me off at all. I feel that my speakers want to let loose but do not have the right components to get there..they seem close to it, but it's just not...there. I listen to a LOT of acoustic guitar (Some with, some without vocals) and blues guitar. I understand music is completely subjective as is ones listening experience, but I need help finding components that can push these speakers to their potential. I am looking for that ultra clear B&W sound at HIGH volumes. I am 25 now, so most of my music is held on CD's or my laptop.

[stuofsci02]

Uav83,

Those B&W CDM-7 SE are quite nice and I think to get an similar B&W speaker now would cost you in the $3k range. So if you can make these sing I think you will be quite happy for some time.

As far as what you should be looking at, it is a good question. In general an audio system is the sum of all it's components. That is, a poor sounding souce (CD player etc.) will not sound very good even if paired with a fantastic pre-amp and amp. As a result I would focus on getting a strong chain of components, rather then focus on a single outstanding piece, unless it is with the understanding that you will upgrade the rest at some later point.

For me I rank the importance of each component in the following order (others may rank differently):

1. Speakers
2. Preamp
3. Source (CD player, DAC, turntable)
4. Amp

This is the main reason why I suggested manfacturers like Emotiva, Rotel or even NAD. These companies provide good sounding gear at reasonable prices, and as such you can address the whole chain within your budget.

If you decide to venture into the premium brands I mentioned before you may only be able to get one or two components for your budget.

I would also suggest a Squeezebox Touch if your music is stored on your computer. It really makes accessing digital files on a computer a pleasure.

Here is a review by Kal Rubinson (who you will likely see on this forum) on the Squeezebox Touch..

http://www.stereophile.com/mediaservers/logitech_squeezebox_touch_network_music_player/index.html

[Briz vegas]

Personally I prefer just enough volume for it to sound right. I find that the guys in the audio club all seem to like it cranked, but I find it gets to me after a while.

Acoustic instruments sound great with more detail and a natural tone, at least I think so. Most of what I have done over the years has edged me towards this target but it is hard to say where the big wins were, although my DAC help significantly compared to my CD player. If you are only using you computer you should at least run it digitally to the DAC in your pre/pro.

Vibration control under you amp and pre would help to open up the sound. I was chipping away at some slightly congested vocals and found this step got me to where I wanted to be. The problem in your setup will be space as all of the options I am aware of take up vertical space. I recommend vibration control for open sound because I recently compared by DAC to my HT and found the Denon4310/cj playing PCM was able to get not far off my DAC in that regard. I was mortified at first but on returning to the DAC it had a clear advantage in detail and tonal balance. I then found that resonance and vibration control gave the DAC the edge that you would expect given the relative price difference.

Looking back the real lesson is that you need to experiment alot if you want to improve your gear. Simply getting dedicated more expensive components can disapoint, and you need to keep an open mind (that's hard to do in audio)

Ps loud volumes means more room interaction so look at room treatment, also look at you music playing software, there are a range of players out there and they all sound better than iTunes. They range from free to expensive and all seem to offer a free trial period.

[Uav83]

After looking around, I think I am going with Stuarts advice. It seems to make the most sense and the cheapest way to get started. If it is still not what I am after I have new gear I could easily resell for a small hit. It just makes more sense to start there and work your way up rather than the other way around. The only other question I had would be about speaker placement?

[Aiden]

After looking around, I think I am going with Stuarts advice. It seems to make the most sense and the cheapest way to get started. If it is still not what I am after I have new gear I could easily resell for a small hit. It just makes more sense to start there and work your way up rather than the other way around. The only other question I had would be about speaker placement?

UAV,

Whatever you do, don't go crazy spending a ton of money on electronics when it will equal more than 3 times what you spent on your speakers.

Here would be my recommendation with a budget of that size...

A pair of 805Di with speakers stands should be able to be had for about 4.2k
Musical FIdelity M3i(1300.00) or M6i if you can find a good deal.
REL T1 850.00.

This will leave you close to 7k after tax and can you always add a nice turntable when you can.

Again, if you go dumping a bunch of money into electronics without upgrading your speakers it would be a bad overall investment.


Everyone will have differing opinions but here are mine:

speakers
room
room
room
electronics

It all starts with getting the right speakers which is the means of the sound and the room which has THE BIGGEST IMPACT on the sound coming from your SPEAKERS.

[Briz vegas]

Cm7 is not the hardest speaker to drive. It's lacks the fst and has fewer drivers. I'm not convinced that Stuart "power" solution is the dogs whatsits in your case. It's a nice simple solution and good for speakers like the 804, with the 7s I think you can afford to look at other attributes, particularly with musical taste that leans towards acoustic guitar. I recall hearing mc cormack 750 watt amps recently, yet it lacked the characterful sound of my CJ ca200 at home (different systems aside).

I say check out Stuart's recommendation absolutely, but I think even Stuart would suggest a home demo first.

As for speaker placement, try pulling them out in front of your gear and experiment with toe in. If you seating position is close to a rear wall think about reducing relectioms with a wall hanging or curtain behind you. Experimentation is the best way to learn stuff.

[stuofsci02]

Briz,

Why are you saying that what I have recommended is a "power solution". I have only recommended 200 wpc amps. And the power had nothing to do with my selection. I was looking for a way for the OP to upgrade his entire chain of components to get the best balance out of his speakers without breaking the bank. I am sure no one will disagree that he has never had his speakers up to potential.

Once he hears his speakers the way they should sound, he can enjoy them and upgrade them later when his is ready and still have a good balaced system.

For me, everything is about balance. No sense in having a sports car with $59 Walmart tires on it.

The 805Di speakers are excellent. I have spent several hours with them and really liked them. But there is no way I would spend that much money not address the source..

[stuofsci02]

Uav83,

I am not sure what you are looking into, but just as a note, the Emotiva gear comes with a 30 day trial. They will refund you 100% no questions asked and you would only be out the return shipping (I am assuming you live in the US?). If you are looking at brands from a store they should let you do an at home trial.

As far as speaker placement and room I am with Briz. Try to get those speakers out in front of the entertainment rack. The less parallel surfaces they interact with the better. That means a toe in (say 10 degrees) will mean the speakers will not be parallel with each other, and will also improve stereo imaging.

For me the biggest thing is to get close to an equal triangle. That is the distance between your ears and each speaker is the same as the distance between the speakers. For me this is best at between 7-9ft for a floor stander of your size. The further apart you put them the more toe-in you might need. Try to get as much space around the speaker as you can by getting them away from walls, subs and furniture.

If you have a lot of reflective surfaces (windows, coffee tables, walls etc.) try taking piece of rug and covering those surfaces to see what it does to sounds. If you prefer the sound with the rug you can get nice acoustical treatments that won't set you back a ton of money. In general room treatments can be one of the best bangs for the buck.

[stuofsci02]

I just found this link. If my post is confusing this link basically is saying what I was trying to.

http://www.crutchfield.com/S-ItjhNp5...onHTspeak.html

[Uav83]

I think Stuart is right on this one. I think it is a great idea to start out with a fresh pair of proper components to hear what my speakers are fully capable of before I jump the gun and do a full rebuild of my system. Worst case scenario would be I have a fresh set of good components and money in the bank to upgrade speakers if I am still not on board with the sound.
I think the triangulation is going to be tough, there is a hallway directly to the right side of the speaker. I am renting an apartment right now until I finish my Masters this year. So hopefully that will be in the cards for the next place!!

[Uav83]

Also, Why is it such a crazy idea to spend a considerable amount more on components than the speakers are worth? Should you not get the best stuff for the speakers you have, maybe even borderline overkill so the components will be able to handle your next speaker upgrade?

[stuofsci02]

Hey Uav83,

Can you post some more pictures of your room.. I am sure we could still give pointers to maximize what you have.

Cheers,

Stuart

[Uav83]

As requested:

[Aiden]

Briz,

Why are you saying that what I have recommended is a "power solution". I have only recommended 200 wpc amps. And the power had nothing to do with my selection. I was looking for a way for the OP to upgrade his entire chain of components to get the best balance out of his speakers without breaking the bank. I am sure no one will disagree that he has never had his speakers up to potential.

Once he hears his speakers the way they should sound, he can enjoy them and upgrade them later when his is ready and still have a good balaced system.

For me, everything is about balance. No sense in having a sports car with $59 Walmart tires on it.

The 805Di speakers are excellent. I have spent several hours with them and really liked them. But there is no way I would spend that much money not address the source..

Are you saying components have a bigger impact on sound than the speakers and the room? :E

I doubt there is a single reputable source (no pun intended :P ) that would agree with you.

[Aiden]

Also, Why is it such a crazy idea to spend a considerable amount more on components than the speakers are worth? Should you not get the best stuff for the speakers you have, maybe even borderline overkill so the components will be able to handle your next speaker upgrade?

Because your speakers and room are where the sound is coming from (does that not make sense? ). Working on those two areas will yield the BIGGEST changes in sound. For those that are purely subjective, why would you go nuts pairing components to speakers to compliment the sound of the speakers only to change speakers and do it all over again.

Pure waste of money.

[Aiden]

I think Stuart is right on this one. I think it is a great idea to start out with a fresh pair of proper components to hear what my speakers are fully capable of before I jump the gun and do a full rebuild of my system. Worst case scenario would be I have a fresh set of good components and money in the bank to upgrade speakers if I am still not on board with the sound.
I think the triangulation is going to be tough, there is a hallway directly to the right side of the speaker. I am renting an apartment right now until I finish my Masters this year. So hopefully that will be in the cards for the next place!!

I'll disagree. Stuart just validated what you wanted to hear so you are naturally going to latch onto his suggestion.

[Uav83]

Aiden,
I agree with placement and room setting 100%. However, I am simply renting a place while I finish my degree up this year and will then be moving to a house. I only have about 5 months left in this place before the move. This set up has been with me for about 8 years now and I have had it in different sized rooms and never thought these speakers were producing what they could. I am currently running an older set up and feel that it is underpowered. Couldn't upgrading those components and giving my speakers more power yield better audio results? It still may not be perfect, but any improvement is an improvement.

[stuofsci02]

Are you saying components have a bigger impact on sound than the speakers and the room? :E

I doubt there is a single reputable source (no pun intended :P ) that would agree with you.

Aiden,

It is clear that you have not even bothered to read this thread. If you had you would be making more intelligent posts. If you will note post #10 by me you will see that I indicated that speakers are number one on my list of "what matters", not components. You will also note under post # 16 I indicated that room treatments can be the best bang for the buck.

Additionally I point to your post #13 where you came up with a system that has no source component and then indicated to "add a turntable when you can". Had you read the OP's posts you would know that his music is mostly computer based or on CD. A turntable is as good a tits on a bull when you don't have any vinyl.

With what you have recommended you get great speakers (no doubt) and an integrated that can drive them fine, but you have left no opportunity to upgrade later without changing that integrated amp first.. 76wpc is going to limit you to small speakers.. There is also no source.. This is an expensive path with little opportunity to adjust should he decide he wants something else. And this suggested for a guy who has not even really heard the speakers he has.. He has already indicated that he will move shortly and therefore should hold of on any purchase of new speakers until he knows where they will go. Maybe a two-way bookshelf is fine.. Maybe not.. The point is, no one knows.

This hobby is all about addressing the weakest link of the system and upgrading making something else the new weakest link.. I never recommend that anyone that is relatively new to hi-fi just jump to the 800 series speakers unless they have lots of money and really know what they want. The same way I would never recommend valve/tubes to a beginner.

Right now the OP has many weak links that should be addressed in order to make the most out of what he has. The best components in his system are his speakers IMO. Build around those with the ability to upgrade them in the future without needing a complete teardown/rebuild.

[stuofsci02]

Uav83,

You indeed have quite a difficult room. In fact you almost all of the problems that can cause trouble for a listening room. I think the best thing to do is wait until you move before you really dive into the getting the room right.

Here are a couple of small suggestions for the time being:

Since you indicate you rarely watch movies, I would consider packing up the subs. This might let you inch the speakers a little further apart and pull them a little further into the room while getting rid of some boxy surfaces. Try also adding a little bit of toe in and see if this improves the imaging.

When you listen to music having the blinds closed should help.

As an experiment, try moving the coffee table out of the room and moving that chair just in front of your couch to form an equal triangle. This will give you a better feeling for improvement in sound you can get with a better room setup. And hey... It looks like it would only take a minute to do, so it could also be the way to listen when you just want to turn the lights down and enjoy music..

Cheers,

Stuart

[realhifi]

The ADA is listed as just the Cinema Reference for the model number, the Onkyo is a TX- DS676 which I am only using for the power. I know this is not the ideal set up and would love to get the most out of my B&W's. If the speakers are sufficient for my needs what would be a smart move as far as a pre/pro and amp combo?
I mainly use my Laptop for the source or the CD player I have on top on the Onkyo. As I said before, I don't want to get CRAZY with my set up, but I think I am due fore an appropriate upgrade.
Thanks for the interest!

If you like those speakers enough then I would think it's time to get into either a very good integrated amplifier or a preamp power amp combo. The Onkyo gear is fine for a starter system but it can be easily bettered by something along the lines of Rotel, Naim, Rega. The very best thing is for you to find a dealer that carries some of this equipment and see about hearing it with your speakers. The ONLY way to find out whether upgrading your electronics is the right direction for you is for you to actually HEAR them with your speakers. We can all talk and recommend till we are blue in the face but until you hear things for yourself you honestly will not know which is the proper direction for YOUR system.

That said, I think you'd be very surprised at how far B&W has come in a short time with their speakers and if you were to give a listen to something like a pr of B&W CM8's with a 100 watt RSX-1500 you might be amazed at what you can get these days. The CM8's retail at $2,200 and the Rotel sells for $1,500 and can stream music from your laptop, plays internet radio, has a cd player, is 100 watts, has 2 additional digital inputs and 1 analog input. Amazing value and those two together will make music beautifully!

Of course the higher you go the higher the performance so those speakers with the new seperates from Rotel would be even better. Try the RC-1580 at $1,300 along with the RB-1582 at $1,500 and throw in the fantastic digital tuner from them, the RDG-1520 at $1,000 for a total of $3,800 for electronics and $2,200 for the speakers to make a grand total of $6,000 and you would be in heaven. Get a dealer to throw in great speaker wire and interconnects
(hugely important) and you'd be thrilled.

Sell what you have and start over. Thats my recommendation. You won't be sorry.

[stuofsci02]

Uav83,

You indicate that you expect to do an upgrade every 5-10 years. I just want to make sure that you can make incremental upgrades too. That is you can spend a little now and get a feel for what it does to your system and then upgrade further once you know what the new weak link is, and what it is that your prefer.

If you have to spend all your money now, then I would certainly make a different suggestion, because obviously spending more money will get you better sound in general. That said, spending a bunch all at once usually does not yield the best sound you could have got for your money, unless you spend a lot of time researching and auditioning.

For example, recently I took everything I have to my Hi-Fi shop where I have a good relationship with the owner (I have spent much money there). I then setup the sytem as close as I could get to at home.

I then swapped out one component at a time to something "better" and determined what part made the biggest difference for my budget. My next step will be to bring that component to my house when I am ready to buy confirming it will indeed perform how I expect it to.

By doing this I really get a good feel for the performance of my system and how changes will affect the sound. I feel I will make fewer mistakes doing this and it allows me to try a lot of different things.

[realhifi]

Honestly, if it was me I'd get myself a set of 805di's and a Naim Nait5i. Sell the rest and get yourself an amazing hifi. Start with a simple streamer like the Squeezebox Touch at $300 and flip out at how good the new crop of hifi is these days. You literally won't believe your ears.

In 5 or so years trade in the Nait5i for seperates from Naim and just keep grooving.
You can thank me later....*s*

[realhifi]

I'm dead serious by the way. You'll be happier than you would have thought possible with that kind of hifi.

805D's------------- $5,000
Naim Nait 5i---------$1,650
Squeezebox Touch----$300

Total---------------$6,950 minus whatever you can get for the things you have.

You only live once!

[SPACEMANRICK]

I am also thinking of going digital and I am pretty new to all the technology behind it (so please excuse my ignorance). How does the Squeezebox compare to the Cambridge NP30 for transferring digital files and playing them through your speakers and amplifier? Is there any difference in sound quality and ease of use between these and other digital players? I am going use a Cambridge 840W amp and 840E pre amp.

http://www.cambridgeaudio.com/summary.php?PID=604

[Aiden]

Aiden,

It is clear that you have not even bothered to read this thread. If you had you would be making more intelligent posts. .

Mo pologys sir, youssa smatter then me is.

[Uav83]

I appreciate all the advice, but I am still having difficulty understanding one thing. I have always been a stereo fan and I have absolutely NO interest in upgrading to more speakers now, or in the future. Why is it such a bad idea to upgrade my components for these speakers, even if I end up swapping these out in the near future? I am very set on staying with the B&W brand for my next upgrade, and again, still stereo. Why would anything change at that point with my new components if I upgraded my speakers down the line? Wouldn't I still want a very nice set of STEREO components? Would new top of the line components not work well with upgraded speakers? Am I missing the boat on this one!?

[stuofsci02]

Uav83,

I think this is a good question to ask.

I think what most people are trying to do here is spend the exact $7,000 budget to give you the best system they can think of. And if you have to spend the whole $7000 now and cannot spend one additional penny for 10 years then maybe the 805Di is the right choice.

That said, there is no reason why you could not get a Musical FIdelity M3i (as Aiden suggested) or a Naim Nait 5i (as realhifi suggested) or any of the other suggestions and use it with the current speakers and then upgrade the speakers later.

I will gaurentee you that the 805Di will sound better then your current speakers.. They are $5000 dollar speakers so what is to be expected? The 805Di will be around for a long time and unless you really want the absolute best that $7000 will get you this instant, there is little harm to expermimenting with components to get your current speakers singing. Then once you have a good handle on what your current speakers can do you can go and audition other speakers and really have a point of comparison.

You may find that spending $5,000 extra on 805Di brings improvement that is not worth $5000 to you when compared to what you have. You may decide that $3000 CM9s bring you the right balance. You may decide that $15,000 802Di are a good compromise.

One thing to note is that if you decide to really go for with a speaker upgrade to something big later on, you may need to replace your amp or other components to get a good match.

For instance the 50wpc Naim will not be well suited for 802Di's.

Also, while there are more then a few people using cheaper electronics with the 800 series speaker and are very happy, most people will also buy more expensive electronics too. So something like Emotiva or Rotel may not be a long term solution with a set of $15,000 speakers..

[dukester]

I appreciate all the advice, but I am still having difficulty understanding one thing. I have always been a stereo fan and I have absolutely NO interest in upgrading to more speakers now, or in the future. Why is it such a bad idea to upgrade my components for these speakers, even if I end up swapping these out in the near future? I am very set on staying with the B&W brand for my next upgrade, and again, still stereo. Why would anything change at that point with my new components if I upgraded my speakers down the line? Wouldn't I still want a very nice set of STEREO components? Would new top of the line components not work well with upgraded speakers? Am I missing the boat on this one!?

Coming to this forum and asking how $7000 in upgrades can improve your system is like throwing chum into shark infested waters...you'll get our attention. I actually applaud your resistance to replacing your speakers as there are some who would trade up if a new color was offered (i've been tempted). But there are some who won't until they see the graphs, charts, and numbers (not me as i'm not smart enough to see the difference). Ultimately, i would want to hear a difference...and is what i would recommend to you. Keep the $7k stashed until after you make the room adustments, then if not satisfied, go out and critically listen to as much as you can; receivers, separates, integrateds, or 600, CM, 800 series speakers...take it all in. Define what sound you like (warm, laid back, forward, etc.) and bring it back to this forum...that'll take alot of the guess work out...and probably give you the best bang for your buck. Good luck.

[stuofsci02]

Coming to this forum and asking how $7000 in upgrades can improve your system is like throwing chum into shark infested waters...you'll get our attention. I actually applaud your resistance to replacing your speakers as there are some who would trade up if a new color was offered (i've been tempted). But there are some who won't until they see the graphs, charts, and numbers (not me as i'm not smart enough to see the difference). Ultimately, i would want to hear a difference...and is what i would recommend to you. Keep the $7k stashed until after you make the room adustments, then if not satisfied, go out and critically listen to as much as you can; receivers, separates, integrateds, or 600, CM, 800 series speakers...take it all in. Define what sound you like (warm, laid back, forward, etc.) and bring it back to this forum...that'll take alot of the guess work out...and probably give you the best bang for your buck. Good luck.

Well said!

[Uav83]

Again, I truly appreciate everyone's advice here and I think a great place to start is where you have said "stores to audition as much you I possibly can". I think I am still too early in the game to be asking such a broad question as "what should I get". I think I would love to hang on to these speakers because it would be a shame to let them go without even giving them a chance and hearing their full potential. Thanks to Stuart, I have a few brands, price ranges and options to start!

[stuofsci02]

One thing I think we will all agree on is that there is no substitution for auditioning..

Let us know how it goes. And let us know if any of the room tweaks recommended improve your sound.

[emig5m]

Hard room to do a more proper setup IMO. I would try to swap walls with the couch and system and try to get the speakers further apart to where you have an equilateral triangle with the main listening position. Lots of bare walls reflecting too... maybe fit some ATS panels in your budget.

[realhifi]

Uav83,

I think this is a good question to ask.

I think what most people are trying to do here is spend the exact $7,000 budget to give you the best system they can think of. And if you have to spend the whole $7000 now and cannot spend one additional penny for 10 years then maybe the 805Di is the right choice.

That said, there is no reason why you could not get a Musical FIdelity M3i (as Aiden suggested) or a Naim Nait 5i (as realhifi suggested) or any of the other suggestions and use it with the current speakers and then upgrade the speakers later.

I will gaurentee you that the 805Di will sound better then your current speakers.. They are $5000 dollar speakers so what is to be expected? The 805Di will be around for a long time and unless you really want the absolute best that $7000 will get you this instant, there is little harm to expermimenting with components to get your current speakers singing. Then once you have a good handle on what your current speakers can do you can go and audition other speakers and really have a point of comparison.

You may find that spending $5,000 extra on 805Di brings improvement that is not worth $5000 to you when compared to what you have. You may decide that $3000 CM9s bring you the right balance. You may decide that $15,000 802Di are a good compromise.

One thing to note is that if you decide to really go for with a speaker upgrade to something big later on, you may need to replace your amp or other components to get a good match.

For instance the 50wpc Naim will not be well suited for 802Di's.

Also, while there are more then a few people using cheaper electronics with the 800 series speaker and are very happy, most people will also buy more expensive electronics too. So something like Emotiva or Rotel may not be a long term solution with a set of $15,000 speakers..

Well said.

Certainly better electronics will help your speakers but you need to know that there is only so much you can do with them. If this has been confusing it was not intended that way and is only some brain storming on our parts to guide you to what you might want to listen to so that YOU can make an educated decision on which direction you might want to go both now and looking at the future. Now all you need to do is get out there and start listening!

Good luck.

[wettou]

Before buying the B&W 805 Diamond listen to these Esoteric MG-10

http://esoteric.teac.com/loudspeakers/mg-10/

Unbelievable and half the price of the 805Diamond. By the way they used to be $6000

[Uav83]

Okay, I have started to look around a bit and auditioned a mint condition (used)
CARVER TFM-45 Amplifier (375 wpc)
CARVER CT-17 Pre-amp
And was pretty taken aback by what it could do. Is there any reason to stay away from used gear? The shop had all the history records for the pair and both were recently gone through and upgraded gold jacks.

I also auditioned a Rotel RSX-1067. It is 7.1 surround which I won't use, but the guy I spoke with at the audio store said it would work for my needs with no problem. I was pretty impressed with its sound as well.

My question would be, should I stay away from either of these?

[stuofsci02]

Uav83,

Used is definately a good route as typically if you want to change it later you can resell for the same or close to what you paid. Look on Audiogon.com as well.

If you are going stereo only, I would stick to Stereo gear and not an AV Receiver like the Rotel.. It will obviously work, but you would get better bang for the buck not buying all the extra amps, and licensing fees for Dolby etc.. Plus in general a good analog preamp will sound better then a pre/pro or AVR.

What speakers did you listen to the Carver stuff on?

[Uav83]

They were both the about same price, however, I think the Rotel was a bit more refined in sound.
There is a pretty significant age diffrence between them however. The Carver was early 90's and the Rotel was only a few years old...Is this something to take into consideration? (The Carver had receipts for everything and was recently went through within the past 2 months!)

They were played through on B&W 683's