Sub to pair with 804 diamonds

[cjm80]

Hey guys, I would really appreciate some opinions and input on a sub that would match my 804's...

Had them about a month now and loving every minute, started out with CM5s about twp months ago but heard the 804s and the heart said open up the wallet! Powering them with a Nad 775 av receiver and have moved the Cm5s to the rear.

Next purchase will be a sub, ideally with a focus on music rather than movie performance. I'm after the tightest bass possible I guess rather than house shaking power.

Also am I missing out on much performance wise using the nad receiver? I'm probably 80:20 in favour of music over movies... Since finding this extremely dangerous forum I've been daydreaming about the Classe ssp-800 and 5 channel power amp combo. Would this be overkill for the 804s?

Thanks

[Hammie]

Hey guys, I would really appreciate some opinions and input on a sub that would match my 804's...

Had them about a month now and loving every minute, started out with CM5s about twp months ago but heard the 804s and the heart said open up the wallet! Powering them with a Nad 775 av receiver and have moved the Cm5s to the rear.

Next purchase will be a sub, ideally with a focus on music rather than movie performance. I'm after the tightest bass possible I guess rather than house shaking power.

Also am I missing out on much performance wise using the nad receiver? I'm probably 80:20 in favour of music over movies... Since finding this extremely dangerous forum I've been daydreaming about the Classe ssp-800 and 5 channel power amp combo. Would this be overkill for the 804s?

Thanks

If you are truly an 80/20 music user, then I would suggest monoblocks or a good 2-channel amp for the 804's.

When I went to monoblocks over a 5-channel amp, the improvement was quite noticeable.

Is your budget really over $15,000 for a Classe processor and amp?

[scanido]

You should match the speakers with the same calibre electronics. The classe SSP800 will bring the best out of your 804's.

Also consider Mcintosh. I've recently acquired their new MX150 processor and the DACS with the added Room Perfect works wonders on music and movies!

[cjm80]

Thanks for quick responses guys!

Hammie - do you think my receiver is good enough to run into some monoblocks? Could you recommend any particular model or a 2 channel amp? I'd be worried about the Nad being the bottleneck in the system.

I would stretch to the Classe although it wouldn't be for a while if this level of electronics is what is required to hear these speakers at their best.

Scanido - i would love to try Mcintosh particularly as my subaru liberty has mac audio built in! I don't think they have and distributors here in Australia unfortunately.

[olilugo]

I though the main question was a search for a subwoofer?

[stuofsci02]

Hey cjm80,

Welcome to the forum.

I also have 804's and love them. Like you I started out with NAD reciever (only a T-742) power a set of 683's. Then I went on a hunt for a good two-channel amplifier. My hunt ended with me picking up a Chord amplifier which made the 683 sound much better. I then upgraded the 683 to 804's and it really is quite awesome. I also bought a pair of CM7 that I still use the NAD on. I have also run the CM7 on the Chord and it is really night and day from the NAD. Although your NAD is better then mine, I would still think that big improvement can be had with a great 2-channel amp.

I would also recommend a good two-channel pre-amp with HTbypass to maximize your 2 channel listening. The SSP-800 is great, but is also very expensive, and I think you could get a high-end 2 channel pre-amp and a dedicate pre/pro from the likes of Marantz or Denon and be better off for 2-channel music, and not be really any worse off for movies. Since you are 80% music (like me) you might find the money is best spent on 2 channel, and build your HT around that.

This is what I am in the process of doing. I am using an Emotiva Preamp while I save for the matching Chord preamp. The Emotiva is actually huge bang for the buck and made a huge improvement over using my NAD as the preamp.

Cheers!

Stu

[Hammie]

Thanks for quick responses guys!

Hammie - do you think my receiver is good enough to run into some monoblocks? Could you recommend any particular model or a 2 channel amp? I'd be worried about the Nad being the bottleneck in the system.

I would stretch to the Classe although it wouldn't be for a while if this level of electronics is what is required to hear these speakers at their best.

Scanido - i would love to try Mcintosh particularly as my subaru liberty has mac audio built in! I don't think they have and distributors here in Australia unfortunately.

IMO, the NAD would be fine as a starting point, especially if you plan on upgrading in the future.

As far as processors and amps, it really depends on your budget for them.

If you are looking at the SSP-800 as a processor option, you can also consider the McIntosh MX150, Anthem Statement D2v, Anthem 50v, or even the Denon AVP-A1UDCI, which are all in the same price range.

Amps may or may not have to match the processor. Some swear by it and others say it doesn't matter. I think, at a minimum, that you go with the same amp for all speakers -- need to be in the same line of that manufacturers amps.

[cjm80]

Based on what people are saying I think I'm going to go for a 2 channel amp with home theatre bypass. I think my Nad will be sufficient for my ht needs. The musical fidelity m6i is available here in Australia for around 5000 U.S. Does anyone have any experience with this amp an b&w speakers?

Also can anyone advise me on how I would integrate a sub into this setup so that it could be used for ht and music?

[beden1]

I have the 804Di speakers in a stereo only setup. My room has decent acoustics and I really don't need any more defined bass for listening to music. The 804Di do a great job on their own. Personally, I would try to get your room acoustics fixed and upgrade your electronics before looking to add sub woofers.

I have the SSP-800 and a pair of Classe CAM-350s mono amps in another system that I use for both HT and stereo. My main speakers there are the 803Ds. It's a very large room with 24' ceilings, and in this situation, I do use a pair of subs to fill in the bass. But, I am finding that the new 804Di do not need the extra help.

To drive my 804Di speakers, I'm using some equipment that I've had for many years. I'm driving them with an Aragon 8008 (2x200 watts) amp and an Aragon 24K II pre-amp. I hate to say it, but the 804Di sound really fantastic with this system. I've seen these pieces listed on Audiogon second hand on the cheap a number of times. The combo might run under $1,500 and you'll end up with a stereo system that will keep you happy for a long time, IMO.

[SoundEngine355]

Subwooder = Something from the Velodyne DD series
AV Receiver or Seperates = Arcam or Denon (Without going to the extreme $$)

[RedRock]

I have a pair of 804Di speakers in a 5.1 surround setup. My listening area is fairly small, with relatively good acoustics (e.g., leather sofa & side chairs, bookcases, carpet). Initially, I ran the 804s in two-channel stereo w/o sub. The sound quality was certainly more than adequate. However, after adding the sub and optimizing the setup, the listening experience was taken to the next level. In my opinion, the Velodyne Optimum-10 is a great match for the 804s, and a worthwhile addition to the system.

[grit]

I have a pair of 804Di speakers in a 5.1 surround setup. My listening area is fairly small, with relatively good acoustics (e.g., leather sofa & side chairs, bookcases, carpet). Initially, I ran the 804s in two-channel stereo w/o sub. The sound quality was certainly more than adequate. However, after adding the sub and optimizing the setup, the listening experience was taken to the next level. In my opinion, the Velodyne Optimum-10 is a great match for the 804s, and a worthwhile addition to the system.

This made me think of something... I always go to stereo bypass on my Rotel 1560 receiver to listen to 2 channel. My source is FLAC files via Sonos, run through a Bryston BDA-1 DAC. The DAC is good enough that, even on my Rotel, I can hear a difference between stereo bypass and stereo. Now here's the problem: stereo bypass does NOT send a signal to the subwoofer. So in order to get the extra punch of my sub, I need to sacrifice the stereo bypass. :cry:

Does anyone know of a pre-processor that has a bypass AND can still send a signal to the subwoofer?

[Briz vegas]

You may want to audition before buying particularly given AU prices ( I just noticed your other post).

There is a natural tendency to recommend the amp one is using and cj are actually good value in Australia compared to many other brands because you pay a little more rather than twice as much. If David at Caxton audio thinks you are serious and of sound character he will lend you a ca200 or a mc cormack amp so you can hear for yourself. The mc cormacks tend to be more powerful but the CJ is generally a little more refined.

Home demos and trade ins are much harder to come by elsewhere which is why my gear is mostly from Caxton audio. I think living sound may also do home demo if they have adopted the practices of the old buranda store where 1/2 the staff have come from. Electronic interiors carry mc and b&w but home demo is a buy and return deal in the past (not simple at all).

If the NAD that you have is the big one, northside reckon they are sweet with the 805, it will be interesting to see how you go with power amps. Actually I was at Caxton the other week when they sold a pair of 750watt McCormack monoblocks to a well heeled fellow, I think they were 10k. Check out the Caxton Audio website for options.


Lots of options, the flavor will depend on you personal preferences.

[dukester]

This made me think of something... I always go to stereo bypass on my Rotel 1560 receiver to listen to 2 channel. My source is FLAC files via Sonos, run through a Bryston BDA-1 DAC. The DAC is good enough that, even on my Rotel, I can hear a difference between stereo bypass and stereo. Now here's the problem: stereo bypass does NOT send a signal to the subwoofer. So in order to get the extra punch of my sub, I need to sacrifice the stereo bypass. :cry:

Does anyone know of a pre-processor that has a bypass AND can still send a signal to the subwoofer?

I personally couldn't find one...but is the reason I went with a REL sub.

[madmac]

This made me think of something... I always go to stereo bypass on my Rotel 1560 receiver to listen to 2 channel. My source is FLAC files via Sonos, run through a Bryston BDA-1 DAC. The DAC is good enough that, even on my Rotel, I can hear a difference between stereo bypass and stereo. Now here's the problem: stereo bypass does NOT send a signal to the subwoofer. So in order to get the extra punch of my sub, I need to sacrifice the stereo bypass. :cry:

Does anyone know of a pre-processor that has a bypass AND can still send a signal to the subwoofer?

It's the nature of the beast unfortunately. In order to send a proper HT low freq effect sound to the sub, it needs digital processing to do this. What you could do is send a full range signal to the sub and use it's own built in crossover to filter in the low frequencies for music?.

[dukester]

It's the nature of the beast unfortunately. In order to send a proper HT low freq effect sound to the sub, it needs digital processing to do this. What you could do is send a full range signal to the sub and use it's own built in crossover to filter in the low frequencies for music?.

That's the advantage of the REL, it allows you to do both Low Pass LFE (processed)/High Pass (analog) simultaneously.

[grit]

So how do you get a Rotel (or any other receiver or pre-processor) to send an analog/high-pass signal to the sub WITHOUT using any of the digital processing circuitry, retaining the "bypass" purity? From what I can tell, my Rotel 1560 will not send a signal to the sub output unless I turn bypass off.

[dukester]

So how do you get a Rotel (or any other receiver or pre-processor) to send an analog/high-pass signal to the sub WITHOUT using any of the digital processing circuitry, retaining the "bypass" purity? From what I can tell, my Rotel 1560 will not send a signal to the sub output unless I turn bypass off.

It's an amazingly simple concept...surprised not more companies have adopted it...check out: http://www.rel.net/

[specialized]

That's the advantage of the REL, it allows you to do both Low Pass LFE (processed)/High Pass (analog) simultaneously.

It's not like that on B&W sub's PV1 and DB1?

Also what is missing if the signal is sended analog full range, and to use own crossover in DB1, connected to proper 800 Series speakers and adjusted with allready defined curve to inegtrate as full range speaker? (as i know DB1 have allready defined curves for specific B&W 800 series speaker)
I dont have experience about this so please correct me if im wrong..


Greetings

Darko

[londoner]

It's not like that on B&W sub's PV1 and DB1?

Also what is missing if the signal is sended analog full range, and to use own crossover in DB1, connected to proper 800 Series speakers and adjusted with allready defined curve to inegtrate as full range speaker? (as i know DB1 have allready defined curves for specific B&W 800 series speaker)
I dont have experience about this so please correct me if im wrong..


Greetings

Darko

That's right. I've played with DB1 at my dealer. It has a stereo line level input that can take a full range signal which it then performs filtering on. You can configure the filter using an attached PC, and there are pre-canned curves for B&W speakers. It also has room measurement and correction support but I didn't play with that.

I listened to it with SSP-800 but with a regular pre-amp I assume you'd have to split off the line level signal going to the power amp in some fashion and route to the DB1 as well.

It certainly seems that it was design intention for DB1 to be usable for both HT and stereo

[dukester]

That's right. I've played with DB1 at my dealer. It has a stereo line level input that can take a full range signal which it then performs filtering on. You can configure the filter using an attached PC, and there are pre-canned curves for B&W speakers. It also has room measurement and correction support but I didn't play with that.

I listened to it with SSP-800 but with a regular pre-amp I assume you'd have to split off the line level signal going to the power amp in some fashion and route to the DB1 as well.

It certainly seems that it was design intention for DB1 to be usable for both HT and stereo

Curious to know if it can receive a signal in Analog Bypass mode or an unprocessed signal?

[londoner]

Curious to know if it can receive a signal in Analog Bypass mode or an unprocessed signal?

Yes it can. The low pass filter is exactly for that case, when it's getting a full range signal. Low pass filter isn't needed when it gets sub feed from a processor.

[specialized]

Yes it can. The low pass filter is exactly for that case, when it's getting a full range signal. Low pass filter isn't needed when it gets sub feed from a processor.

Interesting.. This maybe mean that pair of 804Di + DB1 = More flexible setup with better bass and cheaper becouse its not needed ultra high power amp?

Greetings

Darko

[dukester]

Interesting.. This maybe mean that pair of 804Di + DB1 = More flexible setup with better bass and cheaper becouse its not needed ultra high power amp?

Greetings

Darko

Darko, that's exactly how i feel. Of course the mids aren't 'Marlin Head' level, but after the addition of the sub in Bypass mode, i feel my music quality has increased by an order of magnitude. As peterclarke previously mentioned in the 'DB1' thread, my sub integrates the bottom freqs my mains don't pick up seamlessly...and is now a necessity. It has been the single most impactful/cost efficient upgrade to my system...

[Mark_C.]

I've used a Rel Storm III sub with my Nautilus 804s for six years now and still love the combo.

[olilugo]

That's right. I've played with DB1 at my dealer. It has a stereo line level input that can take a full range signal which it then performs filtering on. You can configure the filter using an attached PC, and there are pre-canned curves for B&W speakers. It also has room measurement and correction support but I didn't play with that.

I listened to it with SSP-800 but with a regular pre-amp I assume you'd have to split off the line level signal going to the power amp in some fashion and route to the DB1 as well.

It certainly seems that it was design intention for DB1 to be usable for both HT and stereo

I don't seam to picture this, let me dum it down and see if I got it?
From the pre-amp, take the Left/right main channels and send it to your sub? then take the left/right rca out of your sub and send it to the amp, then from the amp to your speakers?

or
pre-amp to the rca in in your sub, and then use the spaker connector in your sub to connect your spakers, bypassing an external amp for your main left/right?

[grit]

Yeah, I'm lost too.

I have a 5.1 ch system. I LOVE music and REALLY enjoy HT. I can't afford to have 2 separate systems (which I would prefer), so I have this compromise.

My rotel 1560 has a "sub out" that runs to my subwoofer. I'd LOVE to use it for music, but as i said, utilizing the "sub out" seems to require going through the Rotel's digital section, and thus, their DAC. My outboard DAC is better than the Rotel's, so I'd prefer to dodge that.

So, how do I hook up the sub (not a REL) to accept BOTH signals?

Complicated, right? Maybe (in my case) run an RCA from the DAC to the sub also (since I dont use the DAC and the HT at the same time)... ugh.

[stuofsci02]

Yeah, I'm lost too.

I have a 5.1 ch system. I LOVE music and REALLY enjoy HT. I can't afford to have 2 separate systems (which I would prefer), so I have this compromise.

My rotel 1560 has a "sub out" that runs to my subwoofer. I'd LOVE to use it for music, but as i said, utilizing the "sub out" seems to require going through the Rotel's digital section, and thus, their DAC. My outboard DAC is better than the Rotel's, so I'd prefer to dodge that.

So, how do I hook up the sub (not a REL) to accept BOTH signals?

Complicated, right? Maybe (in my case) run an RCA from the DAC to the sub also (since I dont use the DAC and the HT at the same time)... ugh.

The best way would be to get an all analog pre-amp with HT bypass. There are lots out there like the Parasound 2100, Emotiva USP-1 etc.

I am using the USP-1 in exactly this capacity. It has a built in analog crossover for the speakers and sub. For movies it will allow you to use your Rotel exacly as you are now.