Question about Classe 200watts and 802Ds.....

[JimTW]

From reading this forum... it sounds like most ppl have thier 802Ds
supplied with atleast 400W per channel to start with. But, due to
space limitations, there can only be 1 amp... and if looking at Classe
equipment, there's only the 5x200 that will satisfy the HT and amp
space requirements.

So, how well do the 802D like it with just 200W from the Classe amp?
I've heard the 802Ds with Classe monoblocks and the airy-ness is
UNREAL! Love it. Will it sound similar with 200W? Or will the 802D
be wasted with 200W per channel?

Thanks!
Jim

[tboooe]

I am going through the same debate in my mind. This is why I am looking into the Pass Labs X350.5 amp. Lots of power in Class A operation and lots of wattage. I really like the Classe and Ayre amps but am afraid I may be underpowering the 802D with them.

[tboooe]

I am going through the same debate in my mind. This is why I am looking into the Pass Labs X350.5 amp. Lots of power in Class A operation and lots of wattage (350W/ch). I really like the Classe and Ayre amps but am afraid I may be underpowering the 802D with them.

[RebelMan]

Given that the Pass Labs X350.5 lists for $9.5K, I would think $10K for a pair of Classe' CA-M400's would be a better buy. You get an extra 50 wpc at your disposal and the added benefit of some piece of mind. Provided of course that you have the real estate to accomodate the second amp and you like the sound quality equally well.

[RebelMan]

So, how well do the 802D like it with just 200W from the Classe amp?
I've heard the 802Ds with Classe monoblocks and the airy-ness is
UNREAL! Love it. Will it sound similar with 200W? Or will the 802D
be wasted with 200W per channel?

The CA-2200, assuming this is the amplifier you had in mind, will have no problems driving the 802D's, even to appreciable sound levels, and still sound very very good. Countless demo hours has proven this to me.

The CA-M400 utilizes a "fully" balanced (output mode) circuit topology whereas the CA-2200 does not. This advanced circuitry may be what lends itself to the airy characteristics you noted and why I opted to purchase the CA-M400 mono's over the CA-2200 stereo amplifier to drive my 803S's (and with the hopes that maybe someday they will drive the 800D's).

[johan]

200 watts of that kind of quality is never "just" 200 watts, its plenty. You also said you had space issues and if that means your room is small then you will do just fine with 200 watts

[Karma]

HI JIm,
Having tested an almost countless number of amplifiers over the years when I ran my repair shop, and then talking to my customers, I don't think many people realize what 200W really means.

200W is a LOT of power. How that power translates to volume in a real room depends on a lot of things. Room size and shape, speaker sensitivity, absorbtive surfaces, room openings, and listening habits all play into the volume equation. These are all specific to each situation and cannot be generalized.

I am an advocate of powerful amplifiers. However, there is a limit to how much power is needed beyond which you are wasting your money. 200W will drive nearly any speaker to painful levels. When I read that folks are dithering about whether to buy 400W or 200W I shake my head in disbelief.

My 805S's have 250W Krell amps on them and I hardly ever force them to move out of a peaceful idle. The 805S is the most insensitive speaker in the 800 series. 250W would be far more at home in a larger room. I bought these amps not for the 250W but because they sound great at any volume level I would use. In my case 250W is serious overkill.

Perhaps the best case that can be made for ultra high power amps, in most listening situations, is they will spend more time in the class A operating mode before they transition to class B operation which may be an unintended advantage.

Sparky

[goffriller]

My 802ds are powered by only 150 watts per channel. But it's super clean and fast power - Spectral . I think that they are kind of a cult item, a tiny company, because no one responds at this blog to my invitations about discussing them.
Also, the Spectral preamp I use with them is powered with 125W per channel.
THe very high price of Spectral components would pay for many multiples of these "power specs" from other companies discussed here - yet I still believe my ears and think I made a good choice.
Anyway, its way enough power for my large living room in which I never use ultra extreme volume.
Goffriller

[Race Car Driver]

My 802s are driven by 200 watts. It works, but I do want more.
Im sure 200 watts from a Krell or Classe is on a completely different level then the 200 watts coming from my old Aragon 4004 though..

Mmmm... Krell.......

[Karma]

HI Race,
I won't make a judgment about your power situation. I am curious about WHY you think you need more power. When a solid state amplifier runs out of power it gives a forceful indication. This is known as the amp going into saturation, as in "there ain't no more left in the tank". When this happens distortion increases suddenly and dramatically. It sounds a lot like a transistor radio that has batteries that need to be replaced. It leaves no doubt. If you are not getting these indications I would suggest that you are not running out of power.

Aragon amps are not schlock. Could you do better? Sure, at a higher price but I like Aragon. In the context of your wonderful 802's, a better amp may be appropriate but the issue may not be more power. Krell's, for example, always have had the reputation for their ability to deliver explosive power. It is really their signature ability. I can vouch for it. They tend to sound more powerful than their power spec would indicate. This is true with all their different power speced amps, large or small. Krell's bass delivery is as good as it gets which would be appreciated by your 802's. I know it sounds like I'm advocating Krell. I'm not. I'm just giving an example.

So, in the light of the above comments, I will ask another question. Do you need a more powerful amplifier or just a better amplifier? If the answer is a better amp, you may do better buying a less powerful amp (say 200W or so) of excellent quality.

Sparky

[goffriller]

Sparky, this is what I was getting at re my 150 W Spectral amp, which went for around 8K$ when new. That unit is so ultra fast that the transients get everything they need. I have the bucks to double up and bi-amp,or buy the lastest, but I won't - its great this way!!
Not the same as going from 802ns to 802ds which I just did. THis was a huge change, HUGE.
802ds are great.

[grit]

Argh! I just wrote a bunch of stuff and clicked the damn "back" button and lost it. Sorry, now ya get the SHORT version!

Don't forget that less expensive amps don't drive difficult loads as well. My Rotel 1095 goes from 200 wpc at 8 ohms to 330 wpc at 4 ohms, and my speakers are much closer to a 4 ohm load than an 8 ohm load. My old 1075 Rotel amp (120 wpc at 8 ohms, 200 wpc at 4 ohms) could not drive them. And the same was true with a Classe 100 wpc amp. But, the Classe amp sounded far more detailed, clear, and had better imaging than the Rotels.

So, for those that think they need "more" power, check what your amps are doing at loads similar to your speakers. Perhaps they aren't getting as much power as you think.

But once you reach the right level of power, as Sparky pointed out, consider the quality of the amp. Those Classe's made my speakers sound like they'd doubled in price. Also, perhaps your amp doesn't have the dynamic headroom you need to supply that "umph" of power at the peaks (I've never found a stat that measures headroom). More power won't remedy either of those.

I know I'm fine with the power my Rotel provideds at 4 ohms (equivalant to 165 wpc at 8 ohms), but I'd certainly like to increase the quality of the amp. The only time I'd consider needing more power is if I put the speakers in a larger room AND I couldn't drive them loud enough (not a likely scenario IMHO).

[Race Car Driver]

Whats wrong with having more power and better quality?

Cant I have my cake and eat it too?

I would take either, but prefer both

[RebelMan]

Nothing wrong with having both RCD. :T Besides you can never have too much power.

[goffriller]

This topic got me curious so I looked at the manual of my Spectral Amp. It produces 175 W per channed at 8 ohms, 375 at 4 and 575 at 2. With 60 amps of current. And the frequency response is flat up to 250K !!!. They go that high not for the dolphins but to make the lower harmonics more perfect. Basically zero distortion or crosstalk.
This is an example of very clean power- and I have no temptation yet to upgrade. Its expesnsive stuff anyway, and if you use Spectral stuff you have to use the preamp too plus the MIT spectral cables.
But it does sound wonderful.
To put it in perspective, the sound engineer who records the BSO (where I play) is the one who prodded me to upgrade mn 802Ns to D's. This guy says that the room and the speakers are what counts -not the electronics, and would laugh at my fancy electronics.
I think he's wrong about that= but there it is.
I know for sure that the cartridge is a huge factor.

[Karma]

HI Race,
Are you avoiding my question? I'll repeat: Why do you think you need more power? You must have a reason.

Or are you merely concerned with having the biggest, baddest amp on the blocK? Nothing wrong with that, I'll admit.

Sparky

[Race Car Driver]

No, im not avoiding your question.
Ill repeat, I want my cake and eat too.

Why? because I like to listen to my music LOUD, im a single guy that lives on the corner of a block with no neighbors. Loud music till 2am isnt uncommon.

Do I abuse em? No.
Have I already blown a tweet? Yup.

Does my room need work? Yes, yes... and .... yes.

Do I care to have the biggest baddest amp on the block? No, although it would be cool as hell to have a monster Krell, but i deffinatly cant afford to play with the big boys.

Whats wrong with wanting 400 watts? IIRC The N802s are rated 500, and ive heard of people going with more.

Does my overly small room/house require that? Hell no.

How hard can it be to get a better quality and more powerfull amp then my ancient Aragon 4004?? Rotel RB1092 anyone? Dont like class D, Rotel RB1090. I dont see why either of those wouldnt out preform the Aragon that i have now with ease.
(And I like the 4004, its not going anywhere. Even after I get a new amp)

MMMM... Cake.

[Karma]

HI Race,
OK, OK biggest, baddest it is. Personally, I'd love to hold that position in my neighborhood (maybe I do).

I did have a point I was trying to make. Many times folks add power to their system trying to solve perceived problems. In truth, the system will let you know if there is a problem with power in no uncertain terms. So, they end up spending a lot of money but not solving anything. That seems pretty cost INeffective to me.

Thanks for gracefully putting up with my jibes.

Sparky

[Eliav]

No, im not avoiding your question.
Ill repeat, I want my cake and eat too.

Why? because I like to listen to my music LOUD, im a single guy that lives on the corner of a block with no neighbors. Loud music till 2am isnt uncommon.

Do I abuse em? No.
Have I already blown a tweet? Yup.

Does my room need work? Yes, yes... and .... yes.

Do I care to have the biggest baddest amp on the block? No, although it would be cool as hell to have a monster Krell, but i deffinatly cant afford to play with the big boys.

Whats wrong with wanting 400 watts? IIRC The N802s are rated 500, and ive heard of people going with more.

Does my overly small room/house require that? Hell no.

How hard can it be to get a better quality and more powerfull amp then my ancient Aragon 4004?? Rotel RB1092 anyone? Dont like class D, Rotel RB1090. I dont see why either of those wouldnt out preform the Aragon that i have now with ease.
(And I like the 4004, its not going anywhere. Even after I get a new amp)

MMMM... Cake.

I hear you man, I use Classe CA-M400 on a 803s, too much power ? heck no! sounds great, powerful and everything else. Having more power IMHO cannot be an overkill.
Eliav

[wkhanna]

I’m with you too, RCD. I’m a gear-head / grease-monkey too, of sorts. My philosophy says it’s like having a Porsche with a VW engine. What good is having the ability in the chassis and handling, but no umph to take advantage of it. And for that matter, how many people will, or are able, to use a totally maxed out HiFi system or pseudo race car anyway?

Yeah, most all of us would like to have Ferrari’s, or what ever personal fetish cranks your truck, but how many of us ever will be in that kind of a position? Not me any time soon! And just how many who do can really appreciate and actually put to use the capabilities of such a machine or system?

I take older Euro ‘performance’ vehicles, which I can afford, and replace and/or upgrade all the wearable items in the suspension, chassis and brake department, ensure the stock motor is running at is best, and end up with affordable, fun to drive vehicles. Cars and motos that, say 20 years ago, were at the top of the food chain. So when I see the guy that is driving the latest BMW M3, Audi S6, Bimoto, Aprilla or 911, I can say ‘yes, these are great machines’, and I can have 95% of the thrill that driving a new one would have, but never be able to afford.

I’m in the process of doing the same with my audio system now. And if I could find a good deal on an old Bryston 4B, I’d get it in a heart beat, regardless of the speakers I was currently running. It’s a way of getting close to experiencing ‘high end’ performance for a fraction of the price.
It’s not so much ‘bragging rights’, just a way to appreciate the performance of upper end gear that still fits my budget.

And Sparky, I know that just about the only people that ‘need’ 350 wpc are probably trying to power a nightclub or concert hall, but hey, if you can, and you want to.......? I mean, who really needs a 550 hp muscle car, but how many would like to have one in garage for the occasional Sunday drive?

Maybe there is some machismo element, maybe the ‘Jones’s Factor’, some deep rooted Freudian psychological component trying to ‘compensate’; who knows?

I do know, guys like RCD and me like and appreciate the stuff on the ‘High End’, and we like to use it too. It’s still fun to turn it up once in a while, and when we do, it does not sound like the old days back in the dorm.

Anybody got a cigar?

[Race Car Driver]

Thanks for gracefully putting up with my jibes.

Sparky

No harm no foul, I knew what you were getting at, and thats why at first i didnt directly answer it, but then you persisted.


My whole system is progressing in stages, (like most peoples id think) and a new amp is on the list, but theres other more important things first. (shelving, complete cable upgrade, monster power center, room treatment, final speaker placement, then amp..)

All hopefully within the next month or two.

And back to the orignal poster, mmm classe.... :T
If you have the 802s... and want to take full advantage of them.. IMO buy as much CLEAN power as you can afford.
And if you can save for a bit more power in a month, its worth the wait IMO.

But this is coming from a 25 y.o. audio installer/single guy who likes his music/movies loud

[Mark-n-b]

...My philosophy says it’s like having a Porsche with a VW engine.

Sorry resurrection from the dead and totally off topic but i had to comment - the Bugatti Veyron W16 engine is made by VW, and its [one of] the most advanced engine[s] in the world!

[Aldo]

It all depends on your room size and volume habits!
But never, ever is too much power!
You will be fine with 200s!

[Kal Rubinson]

I've been using the 802Ds with a CA-3200 and find them pretty damn close to the M-350s and the Omicrons. Close.

Kal

[sikoniko]

For the 802's, I feel like CA-M400's are nice, but not necessary. the 200W amps from classe are excellent at low and high volumes.

[style]

803s --> 802d

Hallo,


I have in this moment a 803s front with a Rotel RB1092.
(i have too another RB1092 for rear BW805s, RB1091 for center htm4s)
I have in my head the 802d. But the RB1092 is sure not underpower ampli but
I will change the RB1092 hti a Classè: the CA2200 2x200watt is enought?
For money and space a couple from classè CA-m 400 will be the best solution.

the CA2200 whit the 802d and the rotel for rear and center is a "good" solution?
the 2x200watt Classè (CA2200) are sure better from a 2x500W (Rotel RB1092) or???

Please your opinion.
Greetings from Switzeland.
Omar

[Xavier]

Since yesterday my setup consist of a CA3200 and 802D. I'm using the XLR output from my CDP300 directely into the CA3200 and do not miss any drive. The sound is open, the bass is tight and the midrange FST floods the room with sound, smoothness and detail.