802D owners - what distance from the wall you find the best?

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  • Antonkk
    Senior Member
    • Jan 2010
    • 106

    802D owners - what distance from the wall you find the best?

    I know that it depends on the room but I think most people use 802's in fairly large rooms with good solid walls anyway. What distance in your experience gives you the best tonal balance and soundstage as well as least boomines and boxyness?
  • mrciave
    Senior Member
    • Apr 2010
    • 105

    #2
    Hi Anton,

    so far, each time I moved far from the walls was better... both from side and back walls.

    But honestly, I'm still "traveling around the room" and could not find a final position, simply because I started building the system from scratch last year around May, and each time I did a step in accessories (cables, electronics table, anti vibration supports, power cables), I had to retune the speaker position.

    But anyway, I would say minimum 1 meter from back wall and 1 meter from side wall.

    So far, I found that distance from side and back walls affected more the boominess rather than tonal balance, while I found the 802D hyper sensitive to toe-in for tonal balance vs soundstage width and focus.

    Anyway, just today I bought my last accessories (Oyaide C/P-004 plugs for power cables), once everything settles down I'll attack the "speaker position problem" in an accurate way. Might start a thread in case something not obvious would pop up.

    Ciao,

    Andrea
    2ch Setup: Esoteric SA-50, Linn Sondek LP-12 with Lingo and Ittok, Benz Ace SL, Gryphon Diablo, B&W 802D, Kubala-Sosna Emotion XLR and Speaker, Purist Audio Dominus power cords with Oyaide C/P-004/046, Finite-Elemente Pagode Master Reference, Cerapuc, Cerabase, Bybees

    Home Theater Setup: Panasonic P50VT50T Plasma, Oppo BDP-95 BD Player with digital optical to Esoteric

    Comment

    • Birdy
      Senior Member
      • Mar 2006
      • 186

      #3
      Originally posted by mrciave
      Hi Anton,



      But anyway, I would say minimum 1 meter from back wall and 1 meter from side wall.

      Andrea
      Ciao Andrea,

      You're speaking 1m from back of speaker to back wall or 1 m from front of speaker to back wall?
      Good luck with your quest of positionning, I've found those babies are not so easy to place and 1 year after moving to the new house I still move them from time to time searching for the "ultimate" spot..... :P :P :P :P 8) 8) 8) 8)

      Comment

      • Antonkk
        Senior Member
        • Jan 2010
        • 106

        #4
        Originally posted by mrciave
        Hi Anton,

        so far, each time I moved far from the walls was better... both from side and back walls.

        But honestly, I'm still "traveling around the room" and could not find a final position, simply because I started building the system from scratch last year around May, and each time I did a step in accessories (cables, electronics table, anti vibration supports, power cables), I had to retune the speaker position.

        But anyway, I would say minimum 1 meter from back wall and 1 meter from side wall.

        So far, I found that distance from side and back walls affected more the boominess rather than tonal balance, while I found the 802D hyper sensitive to toe-in for tonal balance vs soundstage width and focus.

        Anyway, just today I bought my last accessories (Oyaide C/P-004 plugs for power cables), once everything settles down I'll attack the "speaker position problem" in an accurate way. Might start a thread in case something not obvious would pop up.

        Ciao,

        Andrea
        Thanx! And btw, do you like the Gryphon/B&W combo? It's a pretty rare one I think, makes me wonder why?

        Comment

        • mrciave
          Senior Member
          • Apr 2010
          • 105

          #5
          Originally posted by Antonkk
          Thanx! And btw, do you like the Gryphon/B&W combo? It's a pretty rare one I think, makes me wonder why?
          So far, I'm very satisfied with the Gryphon. Sound, design, quality...

          I live in an area and country where it's not so easy to get home demos, and due to the economical moment, shops don't have the big guns in the shop to demonstrate. That's why I could not audition Classe' or McIntosh within a reasonable 250km from home.

          A friend of mine brought his Gryphon to my home, and WOW! The best way to describe the integrated is as a "pure gain". Just takes the signal, whatever is coming from the CD, and makes it bigger to drive the speakers. This means finally the combo is a bit on the analytical side rather than warm side.

          Finally I bought an used one myself. I guess it's not so known because it's not on the mainstream advertisement channels. And also I guess it's not so know in US because Gryphon is purely for audio listening, no involvement in HT.

          But my ultimate goal is to listen to music, as close as possible to the original material, not making everything warm or super detailed or whatever. And for me a movie soundtrack is good enough in 2ch.

          Anyway, one thing that surprised me once I started to build the system was the importance of accessories, mainly the vibration feedback reduction through the electronics, and the power cables.

          For example, for the Gryphon, the so called "dynamics" of the system went double when using proper speaker cables, went double again when using proper power cables on CD and AMPLI, and went by three once I placed the electronics on the Finite-Elemente rack, and the various ceramic feet.

          So the question is: a Gryphon on the floor with poor cables, or a Rotel/Nad on the rack with proper cables? Not sure what the answer is...
          2ch Setup: Esoteric SA-50, Linn Sondek LP-12 with Lingo and Ittok, Benz Ace SL, Gryphon Diablo, B&W 802D, Kubala-Sosna Emotion XLR and Speaker, Purist Audio Dominus power cords with Oyaide C/P-004/046, Finite-Elemente Pagode Master Reference, Cerapuc, Cerabase, Bybees

          Home Theater Setup: Panasonic P50VT50T Plasma, Oppo BDP-95 BD Player with digital optical to Esoteric

          Comment

          • mrciave
            Senior Member
            • Apr 2010
            • 105

            #6
            Originally posted by Birdy
            Ciao Andrea,

            You're speaking 1m from back of speaker to back wall or 1 m from front of speaker to back wall?
            Good luck with your quest of positionning, I've found those babies are not so easy to place and 1 year after moving to the new house I still move them from time to time searching for the "ultimate" spot..... :P :P :P :P 8) 8) 8) 8)
            That's what I mean with "traveling around" :W The search never stops!

            From side wall, left tweeter is 1.2m from side wall, and back of speaker is 1m from back wall. On the right side, the side wall is 2m+ from right tweeter, because that's the area with the dining table.
            2ch Setup: Esoteric SA-50, Linn Sondek LP-12 with Lingo and Ittok, Benz Ace SL, Gryphon Diablo, B&W 802D, Kubala-Sosna Emotion XLR and Speaker, Purist Audio Dominus power cords with Oyaide C/P-004/046, Finite-Elemente Pagode Master Reference, Cerapuc, Cerabase, Bybees

            Home Theater Setup: Panasonic P50VT50T Plasma, Oppo BDP-95 BD Player with digital optical to Esoteric

            Comment

            • Antonkk
              Senior Member
              • Jan 2010
              • 106

              #7
              Originally posted by mrciave
              So far, I'm very satisfied with the Gryphon. Sound, design, quality...

              I live in an area and country where it's not so easy to get home demos, and due to the economical moment, shops don't have the big guns in the shop to demonstrate. That's why I could not audition Classe' or McIntosh within a reasonable 250km from home.

              A friend of mine brought his Gryphon to my home, and WOW! The best way to describe the integrated is as a "pure gain". Just takes the signal, whatever is coming from the CD, and makes it bigger to drive the speakers. This means finally the combo is a bit on the analytical side rather than warm side.

              Finally I bought an used one myself. I guess it's not so known because it's not on the mainstream advertisement channels. And also I guess it's not so know in US because Gryphon is purely for audio listening, no involvement in HT.

              But my ultimate goal is to listen to music, as close as possible to the original material, not making everything warm or super detailed or whatever. And for me a movie soundtrack is good enough in 2ch.

              Anyway, one thing that surprised me once I started to build the system was the importance of accessories, mainly the vibration feedback reduction through the electronics, and the power cables.

              For example, for the Gryphon, the so called "dynamics" of the system went double when using proper speaker cables, went double again when using proper power cables on CD and AMPLI, and went by three once I placed the electronics on the Finite-Elemente rack, and the various ceramic feet.

              So the question is: a Gryphon on the floor with poor cables, or a Rotel/Nad on the rack with proper cables? Not sure what the answer is...
              Gryphon are huge among russian audiophile community, many people swear by them. I found them to be extemely analytical and not enough musical for my taste but that of course coulde be because of the system mismatch. It's kinda interesting that not many people use them with B&W despite the fact that Diablo is one of the few intergateds powerful enough to drive 802's.

              Comment

              • mrciave
                Senior Member
                • Apr 2010
                • 105

                #8
                Originally posted by Antonkk
                Gryphon are huge among russian audiophile community, many people swear by them. I found them to be extemely analytical and not enough musical for my taste but that of course coulde be because of the system mismatch. It's kinda interesting that not many people use them with B&W despite the fact that Diablo is one of the few intergateds powerful enough to drive 802's.
                I would definitely confirm that the Diablo is on the analytical side, and that sometimes I'd like a bit more musicality. For example, Bettye Lavette's voice is a bit "thin" sometimes, as if missing the body.

                But each time I improved the power supply, sound got less thin, with more body and more musical. That's why the Oyaide's are on the way, they should provide musicality and body.

                On the other hand I feel that, at least partially, what I'm hearing is more a character of the old 802D rather than of the amplifier. If and when I'll realize the 802D's have this character, I'd rather replace the speakers with a flatter response one, instead of finding "an amplifier that fills the gap". But I also guess that's why McIntosh couple well with B&W, they are kind of complementary and mask each other issues, while emphasizing the mutual qualities.

                We'll see...
                2ch Setup: Esoteric SA-50, Linn Sondek LP-12 with Lingo and Ittok, Benz Ace SL, Gryphon Diablo, B&W 802D, Kubala-Sosna Emotion XLR and Speaker, Purist Audio Dominus power cords with Oyaide C/P-004/046, Finite-Elemente Pagode Master Reference, Cerapuc, Cerabase, Bybees

                Home Theater Setup: Panasonic P50VT50T Plasma, Oppo BDP-95 BD Player with digital optical to Esoteric

                Comment

                • Antonkk
                  Senior Member
                  • Jan 2010
                  • 106

                  #9
                  Originally posted by mrciave
                  I would definitely confirm that the Diablo is on the analytical side, and that sometimes I'd like a bit more musicality. For example, Bettye Lavette's voice is a bit "thin" sometimes, as if missing the body.

                  But each time I improved the power supply, sound got less thin, with more body and more musical. That's why the Oyaide's are on the way, they should provide musicality and body.

                  On the other hand I feel that, at least partially, what I'm hearing is more a character of the old 802D rather than of the amplifier. If and when I'll realize the 802D's have this character, I'd rather replace the speakers with a flatter response one, instead of finding "an amplifier that fills the gap". But I also guess that's why McIntosh couple well with B&W, they are kind of complementary and mask each other issues, while emphasizing the mutual qualities.

                  We'll see...

                  I dunno - I heard a full Gryphon system with Atlantis speakers and it was just that - thin and analitical. B&W's don't sound thin on the voices IMHO.

                  Comment

                  • mrciave
                    Senior Member
                    • Apr 2010
                    • 105

                    #10
                    Originally posted by Antonkk
                    I dunno - I heard a full Gryphon system with Atlantis speakers and it was just that - thin and analitical. B&W's don't sound thin on the voices IMHO.
                    I'm open to anything... But I've heard the same Diablo on other speakers and it was not thin. Boh... Might be the room, at times it might be unpleasant to just chat because it's still missing quite some furniture.

                    That's why next on the list is speaker position together with proper furnishing and maybe some acoustic panels... But while I'm quite skilled with changing components and accessories, I'm a plain rookie when it comes to room influence. Simply my previous system was not good enough to feel the influence of the room.

                    About a full Gryphon system yes, I think it might be too cold and analytical.

                    I'll post exact speaker positioning and next steps in February when back home.
                    2ch Setup: Esoteric SA-50, Linn Sondek LP-12 with Lingo and Ittok, Benz Ace SL, Gryphon Diablo, B&W 802D, Kubala-Sosna Emotion XLR and Speaker, Purist Audio Dominus power cords with Oyaide C/P-004/046, Finite-Elemente Pagode Master Reference, Cerapuc, Cerabase, Bybees

                    Home Theater Setup: Panasonic P50VT50T Plasma, Oppo BDP-95 BD Player with digital optical to Esoteric

                    Comment

                    • mrciave
                      Senior Member
                      • Apr 2010
                      • 105

                      #11
                      But anyway I've owned the 686 and now I've got the 802D... And I would define both the top and bottom of the range as not being on the warmest side of speakers...

                      Definitely I love my 802D, I think they are revealing, monitor, quite neutral, not fatiguing and providing listening pleasure but... A bit as if loudness was turned on on the old car stereos. Bass and highs up a bit. And now for sure I'll be attacked as heretic :twisted: .

                      Strange is, for classical music this is perfect (violins are great), for rock it's OK, for jazz OK, but somehow for female voices... They're not the best. And I find this is the B&W sound that is carried throughout the range. 686 gave the same impression.

                      And I think this is the reason why you have B&W lovers or B&W detractors, no half way.

                      At least this is what's happening in my system ops:
                      2ch Setup: Esoteric SA-50, Linn Sondek LP-12 with Lingo and Ittok, Benz Ace SL, Gryphon Diablo, B&W 802D, Kubala-Sosna Emotion XLR and Speaker, Purist Audio Dominus power cords with Oyaide C/P-004/046, Finite-Elemente Pagode Master Reference, Cerapuc, Cerabase, Bybees

                      Home Theater Setup: Panasonic P50VT50T Plasma, Oppo BDP-95 BD Player with digital optical to Esoteric

                      Comment

                      • Skyblue
                        Senior Member
                        • Jun 2009
                        • 504

                        #12
                        Originally posted by mrciave
                        But anyway I've owned the 686 and now I've got the 802D... And I would define both the top and bottom of the range as not being on the warmest side of speakers...

                        Definitely I love my 802D, I think they are revealing, monitor, quite neutral, not fatiguing and providing listening pleasure but... A bit as if loudness was turned on on the old car stereos. Bass and highs up a bit. And now for sure I'll be attacked as heretic :twisted: .

                        Strange is, for classical music this is perfect (violins are great), for rock it's OK, for jazz OK, but somehow for female voices... They're not the best. And I find this is the B&W sound that is carried throughout the range. 686 gave the same impression.

                        And I think this is the reason why you have B&W lovers or B&W detractors, no half way.

                        At least this is what's happening in my system ops:
                        I have the 802di's and I dont think they are that bassy. With respect to the midrange, try and listen to the 800di's. They have superb mids as well as lovely highs and a nice controlled bass. I think they are simply a much better pair of speakers, and people that think that 802's are the same, just for smaller rooms they, ... well they are wrong..
                        B&W 800 Diamond, B&W805S, B&W DB1, Classe SSP 800, DIY Icepower ASX2 600W monos, Ayre QB9, JPlay.

                        Comment

                        • wettou
                          Ultra Senior Member
                          • May 2006
                          • 3389

                          #13
                          Originally posted by Skyblue
                          I have the 802di's and I dont think they are that bassy. With respect to the midrange, try and listen to the 800di's. They have superb mids as well as lovely highs and a nice controlled bass. I think they are simply a much better pair of speakers, and people that think that 802's are the same, just for smaller rooms they, ... well they are wrong..
                          I agree 100% I listen to both in the same size room and with identical set-up electronics with identical music and whoa what a difference the 800Diamond rock they are the ones to get :T

                          Off course they are a bit expensive

                          my 802Ds are placed 5 feet from the side walls and 3 feet from the rear walls
                          Farming looks mighty easy when your plow is a pencil, and you're a thousand miles from the corn field."Dwight D. Eisenhower

                          Comment

                          • mrciave
                            Senior Member
                            • Apr 2010
                            • 105

                            #14
                            Hi all,

                            I'm finally back home from a long business trip, and enjoying my system again... With the addition of Oyaide C/P-004 power plugs. What a difference!!!

                            Anyway, here are the exact measurements (with TWEETER I mean center of tweeter grille)
                            LEFT TWEETER TO LEFT WALL: 1.35m
                            RIGHT TWEETER TO RIGHT WALL: 2.05m
                            TWEETER TO TWEETER (speaker distance): 1.90m
                            TWEETER TO BACK WALL: 1.65m
                            TWEETER TO HEAD (along room direction): 2.35m
                            HEAD TO BACK WALL: 0.95m
                            TOE-IN: at this moment, speakers cross 0.50m behind HEAD, but still tuning
                            ROOM SIZE: 5.30x4.95m

                            Needless to say, this is still not the final position, and the effect of the Oyaide's clearly requires some adjustment.
                            2ch Setup: Esoteric SA-50, Linn Sondek LP-12 with Lingo and Ittok, Benz Ace SL, Gryphon Diablo, B&W 802D, Kubala-Sosna Emotion XLR and Speaker, Purist Audio Dominus power cords with Oyaide C/P-004/046, Finite-Elemente Pagode Master Reference, Cerapuc, Cerabase, Bybees

                            Home Theater Setup: Panasonic P50VT50T Plasma, Oppo BDP-95 BD Player with digital optical to Esoteric

                            Comment

                            • Antonkk
                              Senior Member
                              • Jan 2010
                              • 106

                              #15
                              Originally posted by mrciave
                              Hi all,

                              I'm finally back home from a long business trip, and enjoying my system again... With the addition of Oyaide C/P-004 power plugs. What a difference!!!

                              Anyway, here are the exact measurements (with TWEETER I mean center of tweeter grille)
                              LEFT TWEETER TO LEFT WALL: 1.35m
                              RIGHT TWEETER TO RIGHT WALL: 2.05m
                              TWEETER TO TWEETER (speaker distance): 1.90m
                              TWEETER TO BACK WALL: 1.65m
                              TWEETER TO HEAD (along room direction): 2.35m
                              HEAD TO BACK WALL: 0.95m
                              TOE-IN: at this moment, speakers cross 0.50m behind HEAD, but still tuning
                              ROOM SIZE: 5.30x4.95m

                              Needless to say, this is still not the final position, and the effect of the Oyaide's clearly requires some adjustment.

                              Can you describe the difference the Oyaide plugs made?

                              Comment

                              • mrciave
                                Senior Member
                                • Apr 2010
                                • 105

                                #16
                                Hopefully I'll not be banned because cable threads are prohibited. But these are plugs :roll: .

                                Well I experimented with both Oyaide's C/P 004 plugs (beryllium) with the R1 matching power outlet in the wall (also beryllium), and with Oyaide's C/P 046 plugs (palladium) with the SWO-XXX power outlet (palladium as well).

                                Well, in both cases, the difference from cheap plugs is incredible, especially the beryllium plugs are so musical:
                                - beryllium gear: it gave a sweet attack to sounds, for example in Miles Davis Kind of Blue disc, the trumpet is silk smooth; it also gets some body, but somehow everything is sweetened, musical but maybe lacking a bit of dynamics
                                - palladium gear: sound gets definitely less smooth but more dynamic. More body there as well. Still the difference from cheap plugs is massively there.

                                Finally, it turned out that The Gryphon Diablo amplifier (known for it's current-delivery capabilities) is definitely killed by the 004s, while with the 046s the dynamics are great. On the CD, 004s are better and give the sound the smoothness and sweetness I'm looking for.

                                My explanation/feeling? I would have never believed that power cables/plugs/whatever could be of such an effect. But definitely "what goes in, must come out". Condensers aside, I guess part of the musical content goes upstream to the power cable and the electrical lines. Thus the 004s are kind of smoothing and filtering, but there's a limit to the current that can go through them. That's why they're OK on a CD, but not on the amplifier.

                                For those who're LOLling at this, I always make the GF blind test: whenever I change something, in my maniac search for improvements, I don't mention anything to my GF, and just call her and ask "can you feel a difference?". Well, she always has comments that match my critical listening, even from another room round the corner.

                                My conclusion is: if I would go for extra smoothness at the expense of dynamics, I'd go down a route of "artificial smoothness", which finally makes the sound unpleasant. So I'll keep my balance between dynamics and smoothness, and if I want to improve on that side, I guess I need to change gear (CD or amplifier). In the neverending search for "close to live" sound...
                                2ch Setup: Esoteric SA-50, Linn Sondek LP-12 with Lingo and Ittok, Benz Ace SL, Gryphon Diablo, B&W 802D, Kubala-Sosna Emotion XLR and Speaker, Purist Audio Dominus power cords with Oyaide C/P-004/046, Finite-Elemente Pagode Master Reference, Cerapuc, Cerabase, Bybees

                                Home Theater Setup: Panasonic P50VT50T Plasma, Oppo BDP-95 BD Player with digital optical to Esoteric

                                Comment

                                • anhdat
                                  Junior Member
                                  • Apr 2011
                                  • 2

                                  #17
                                  set up B&W 802d

                                  Hi, i need some help please, in my set up i have the speaker located 3'away from back wall and 2' from side wall,and i have two trees located in the back of my speakers, should i keep them or remove those trees, what should i do? to get better sounds from my set up.Thanks for any opinions in advance!


                                  Comment

                                  • anhdat
                                    Junior Member
                                    • Apr 2011
                                    • 2

                                    #18
                                    B&W 802d biwire

                                    Hi, i have a audio quest Volcano biwire, at one end of the speaker cable it has four banana plug ,and it has two long length and two short length please see the picture.

                                    can plug two long one in to the two top and two short into two bottom one of the speakers.

                                    thanks again for any help.
                                    Last edited by anhdat; 17 April 2011, 23:22 Sunday.

                                    Comment

                                    • Kal Rubinson
                                      Super Senior Member
                                      • Mar 2006
                                      • 2109

                                      #19
                                      Originally posted by anhdat
                                      Hi, i need some help please, in my set up i have the speaker located 3'away from back wall and 2' from side wall,and i have two trees located in the back of my speakers, should i keep them or remove those trees, what should i do? to get better sounds from my set up.Thanks for any opinions in advance!
                                      First, the trees make little acoustic difference and you can base your choice on aesthetics.

                                      Second, you have pretty bare walls and an uncovered hardwood floor. You need absorbent panels/treatments, at least at the first reflection point in every dimension and you probably need bass traps.
                                      Kal Rubinson
                                      _______________________________
                                      "Music in the Round"
                                      Senior Contributing Editor, Stereophile
                                      http://forum.stereophile.com/category/music-round

                                      Comment

                                      • Kal Rubinson
                                        Super Senior Member
                                        • Mar 2006
                                        • 2109

                                        #20
                                        Originally posted by anhdat
                                        Hi, i have a audio quest Volcano biwire, at one end of the speaker cable it has four banana plug ,and it has two long length and two short length please see the picture.
                                        can plug two long one in to the two top and two short into two bottom one of the speakers.
                                        Yes.
                                        Kal Rubinson
                                        _______________________________
                                        "Music in the Round"
                                        Senior Contributing Editor, Stereophile
                                        http://forum.stereophile.com/category/music-round

                                        Comment

                                        • mrciave
                                          Senior Member
                                          • Apr 2010
                                          • 105

                                          #21
                                          First of all congratulations, you have some serious power in that cabinet.

                                          In the corner, I don't think those trees are making any difference. But, as Jim says in "Get Better Sound", you can use trees on the first reflection point on the side walls, instead of acoustic panels. But from the pics, they might be a bit too high with respect to tweeter/midgrange height.

                                          Then for sure a rug in front of the speakers, on the first reflection point on the floor.

                                          And move the electronics cabinet further back, don't keep it right between the speakers. As it's not a vibration isolated cabinet, you'll get plenty of feedback in the electronics from the floor vibration, so some distance from the speakers is welcome.

                                          Where is the sofa located? On the back wall, or there is some distance from it?
                                          2ch Setup: Esoteric SA-50, Linn Sondek LP-12 with Lingo and Ittok, Benz Ace SL, Gryphon Diablo, B&W 802D, Kubala-Sosna Emotion XLR and Speaker, Purist Audio Dominus power cords with Oyaide C/P-004/046, Finite-Elemente Pagode Master Reference, Cerapuc, Cerabase, Bybees

                                          Home Theater Setup: Panasonic P50VT50T Plasma, Oppo BDP-95 BD Player with digital optical to Esoteric

                                          Comment

                                          • htsteve
                                            Super Senior Member
                                            • Sep 2004
                                            • 1216

                                            #22
                                            anhdat,

                                            First of all, welcome to the forum! :T

                                            You have a very nice setup. I definitely like to see B&W and McIntosh. An excellent combination.

                                            I echo what the others have said abouut possible improvements. A rug in front of the speakers is a definite thing to do. So is moving back the entertainment center a little bit. These steps will be noticeable.

                                            Another suggestion is to remove the covers on the midrange and replace the plastic 'bullet' with the metal bullet that came with the speakers. This will improve soundstage and clarity.


                                            Hope this helps.

                                            Comment

                                            • madmac
                                              Moderator Emeritus
                                              • Aug 2010
                                              • 3122

                                              #23
                                              My opinion is that the trees will do nothing but help the sound where they are. Like others have said, a throw carpet in the middle of the room would really help, especially in the bass dept.

                                              The speaker placement looks fine. Maybe bring the speakers out another inch or so. I mean, we all have to live with our rooms right??!!.
                                              Dan Madden :T

                                              Comment

                                              • Kal Rubinson
                                                Super Senior Member
                                                • Mar 2006
                                                • 2109

                                                #24
                                                Originally posted by mrciave
                                                But, as Jim says in "Get Better Sound", you can use trees on the first reflection point on the side walls, instead of acoustic panels.
                                                Does he offer any real measurement data to support this contention?
                                                Kal Rubinson
                                                _______________________________
                                                "Music in the Round"
                                                Senior Contributing Editor, Stereophile
                                                http://forum.stereophile.com/category/music-round

                                                Comment

                                                • beden1
                                                  Super Senior Member
                                                  • Oct 2006
                                                  • 1676

                                                  #25
                                                  Originally posted by madmac
                                                  My opinion is that the trees will do nothing but help the sound where they are. Like others have said, a throw carpet in the middle of the room would really help, especially in the bass dept.

                                                  The speaker placement looks fine. Maybe bring the speakers out another inch or so. I mean, we all have to live with our rooms right??!!.
                                                  I played with this quite a bit in my setup with a large room and high ceilings. I have 6' silk shrub like plants (bushy starting at the top of the pot) placed behind my front L/R speakers and they seem to help limit reverb as well as tone the highs and tighten the sound. I also have them positioned in various places around the room.

                                                  I keep playing with the positioning of some of the plants and can hear the differences. I'm happy that a cheap solution seems to provide benefit.

                                                  No scientific data and only my ears hearing the difference.

                                                  Comment

                                                  • mrciave
                                                    Senior Member
                                                    • Apr 2010
                                                    • 105

                                                    #26
                                                    He does not offer measurements, but mentions "ficus trees (leafy trees)" to diffuse the sound on the first reflection point.

                                                    I did not try it yet (and did not try yet acoustic panels, planning to do it actually), but I figure that if the leaves are thick/heavy enough and small enough, they could work on mid-high frequencies as diffusers, same as the pyramids or the egg carton boxes?
                                                    2ch Setup: Esoteric SA-50, Linn Sondek LP-12 with Lingo and Ittok, Benz Ace SL, Gryphon Diablo, B&W 802D, Kubala-Sosna Emotion XLR and Speaker, Purist Audio Dominus power cords with Oyaide C/P-004/046, Finite-Elemente Pagode Master Reference, Cerapuc, Cerabase, Bybees

                                                    Home Theater Setup: Panasonic P50VT50T Plasma, Oppo BDP-95 BD Player with digital optical to Esoteric

                                                    Comment

                                                    • Kal Rubinson
                                                      Super Senior Member
                                                      • Mar 2006
                                                      • 2109

                                                      #27
                                                      Originally posted by mrciave
                                                      He does not offer measurements, but mentions "ficus trees (leafy trees)" to diffuse the sound on the first reflection point.
                                                      Hard to believe they have much effect over much of the spectrum.

                                                      I did not try it yet (and did not try yet acoustic panels, planning to do it actually), but I figure that if the leaves are thick/heavy enough and small enough, they could work on mid-high frequencies as diffusers, same as the pyramids or the egg carton boxes?
                                                      Egg cartons? Hardly a reference.
                                                      Kal Rubinson
                                                      _______________________________
                                                      "Music in the Round"
                                                      Senior Contributing Editor, Stereophile
                                                      http://forum.stereophile.com/category/music-round

                                                      Comment

                                                      • beden1
                                                        Super Senior Member
                                                        • Oct 2006
                                                        • 1676

                                                        #28
                                                        Originally posted by Kal Rubinson
                                                        Hard to believe they have much effect over much of the spectrum.
                                                        Try some large dense leafy silk plants for yourself, and I think you'll be surprised. They are especially good when your wife will not put up with professional sound treatments in the living room, especially after you took it over for your music room like I did. :T

                                                        Which brings me to a recent observation I had. My wife and I were given a tour of a performing arts theater at a university located in Florida. It was recently completed and our foundation had provided partial funding. I forget the architectural firm that designed the facility, but they have been involved in a number of similar quality projects over the years.

                                                        The theater was empty, and while up on stage, I started clapping my hands at different locations in order to hear the reverb. I also went into the seating areas of the theater to do the same. I was amazed that the reverb was alive in every position where I clapped my hands. It sounded very similar, although a bit more lively as compared to my own large listening room with 24' ceilings. And, I'm sure it would tone down a bit when the theater was filled with people.

                                                        I have thought my own room was on the lively side, but not bright or harsh in the mids and high end frequencies, but also maybe not what the professional sound engineers shoot for. It just sounds very alive and closer to a live concert, and I was happy after hearing the sounds in this theater, that my room acoustics may just be the way it should be.

                                                        I always felt that many listening rooms were over treated to the point where they sound almost dead. Now, the alive acoustics in this performing arts theater made me think that I may have been on the right track all along. I guess it goes back to my early days when I performed in orchestras and bands, and that kind of sound becomes your frame of reference.

                                                        Comment

                                                        • SPACEMANRICK
                                                          Senior Member
                                                          • May 2005
                                                          • 200

                                                          #29
                                                          I have wondered how good these planter bass traps from RealTraps work......

                                                          Comment

                                                          • mrciave
                                                            Senior Member
                                                            • Apr 2010
                                                            • 105

                                                            #30
                                                            Originally posted by Kal Rubinson
                                                            Hard to believe they have much effect over much of the spectrum.

                                                            Egg cartons? Hardly a reference.
                                                            Thank you for your exhaustive and detailed explanation as usual.

                                                            I guess there's plenty of musicians around, at all levels, that started in garages/basements sound-proofed with egg cartons... I even recall some mention to them, or some other non-professional sound proofing, in Keith Richards' book, when describing the recording of Exile.

                                                            Nowadays, an Internet connection and a credit card allow you to buy any specialized product and ship it all over the world, but in a not so far past, with less money and globalization, people used their brain more, experimented with makeshifts, and only after moved to professional products...

                                                            I'm not against the specialized products, and probably I'll end up purchasing acoustic panels, but I might as well build a wood frame and stuff it with fiberglass myself.
                                                            2ch Setup: Esoteric SA-50, Linn Sondek LP-12 with Lingo and Ittok, Benz Ace SL, Gryphon Diablo, B&W 802D, Kubala-Sosna Emotion XLR and Speaker, Purist Audio Dominus power cords with Oyaide C/P-004/046, Finite-Elemente Pagode Master Reference, Cerapuc, Cerabase, Bybees

                                                            Home Theater Setup: Panasonic P50VT50T Plasma, Oppo BDP-95 BD Player with digital optical to Esoteric

                                                            Comment

                                                            • mrciave
                                                              Senior Member
                                                              • Apr 2010
                                                              • 105

                                                              #31
                                                              Originally posted by mrciave
                                                              I even recall some mention to them, or some other non-professional sound proofing, in Keith Richards' book, when describing the recording of Exile.
                                                              Well, I just went through the chapter on Exile, and it was about recording in a basement, and looking for the right spot where to put instruments... Keith ended up in a small cubicle with tiles and recording the amp pointed to a corner, Charlie Watts was drumming somewhere at the end of a corridor, and the saxophone was round the corner somewhere, to the point that the guys sometimes got lost or could not find where they were...

                                                              Sure, in this case it was more about "effects" and "sound" and "echo" rather than "sound-proofing" (my bad memory), but my point is that pre-existing furniture, plants, and yes, egg-cartons, can be as much effective as professional treatments. It just takes a bit of imagination...
                                                              2ch Setup: Esoteric SA-50, Linn Sondek LP-12 with Lingo and Ittok, Benz Ace SL, Gryphon Diablo, B&W 802D, Kubala-Sosna Emotion XLR and Speaker, Purist Audio Dominus power cords with Oyaide C/P-004/046, Finite-Elemente Pagode Master Reference, Cerapuc, Cerabase, Bybees

                                                              Home Theater Setup: Panasonic P50VT50T Plasma, Oppo BDP-95 BD Player with digital optical to Esoteric

                                                              Comment

                                                              • Kal Rubinson
                                                                Super Senior Member
                                                                • Mar 2006
                                                                • 2109

                                                                #32
                                                                Originally posted by SPACEMANRICK
                                                                I have wondered how good these planter bass traps from RealTraps work......

                                                                http://www.realtraps.com/p_planter.htm
                                                                It is all in the base, not the fake plant.
                                                                Kal Rubinson
                                                                _______________________________
                                                                "Music in the Round"
                                                                Senior Contributing Editor, Stereophile
                                                                http://forum.stereophile.com/category/music-round

                                                                Comment

                                                                • Kal Rubinson
                                                                  Super Senior Member
                                                                  • Mar 2006
                                                                  • 2109

                                                                  #33
                                                                  Originally posted by mrciave
                                                                  Thank you for your exhaustive and detailed explanation as usual.
                                                                  Considering the weight of information on acoustical materials, it shouldn't be necessary.

                                                                  I guess there's plenty of musicians around, at all levels, that started in garages/basements sound-proofed with egg cartons... I even recall some mention to them, or some other non-professional sound proofing, in Keith Richards' book, when describing the recording of Exile.
                                                                  Better than nothing but not much better.

                                                                  Nowadays, an Internet connection and a credit card allow you to buy any specialized product and ship it all over the world, but in a not so far past, with less money and globalization, people used their brain more, experimented with makeshifts, and only after moved to professional products...
                                                                  Yup. I remember experimenting with all kinds of "found" stuff. OTOH, times have changed and, while putting almost anything into a room or on the walls will affect the acoustics in some way, not just anything (no matter how aesthetically pleasing or based on primitive beliefs) will work effectively and without side-effects.

                                                                  I'm not against the specialized products, and probably I'll end up purchasing acoustic panels, but I might as well build a wood frame and stuff it with fiberglass myself.
                                                                  Great. I fully agree and stuffing it with fiberglass will be much more effective than stuffing it with grass clippings. :W
                                                                  Kal Rubinson
                                                                  _______________________________
                                                                  "Music in the Round"
                                                                  Senior Contributing Editor, Stereophile
                                                                  http://forum.stereophile.com/category/music-round

                                                                  Comment

                                                                  • Kal Rubinson
                                                                    Super Senior Member
                                                                    • Mar 2006
                                                                    • 2109

                                                                    #34
                                                                    Originally posted by mrciave
                                                                    Sure, in this case it was more about "effects" and "sound" and "echo" rather than "sound-proofing" (my bad memory), but my point is that pre-existing furniture, plants, and yes, egg-cartons, can be as much effective as professional treatments. It just takes a bit of imagination...
                                                                    Yes, it is a different paradigm but such things can and do have effects but whether they are predictably effective as room treatment is another story.
                                                                    Kal Rubinson
                                                                    _______________________________
                                                                    "Music in the Round"
                                                                    Senior Contributing Editor, Stereophile
                                                                    http://forum.stereophile.com/category/music-round

                                                                    Comment

                                                                    • style
                                                                      Super Senior Member
                                                                      • Feb 2006
                                                                      • 1562

                                                                      #35
                                                                      well a power cord is more important vs. a interconnects ! this is sure .

                                                                      and if you have the highend cables with furutech or Oyaide your system wil be give you a lot of satisfaction.

                                                                      a lot of peaple go in the "cabel-monkey" and at first with purchasing a top speakers and interconnect cabels..... ops: in not the right way!

                                                                      the sound from each room is differrent, a mathematical solution is not available...--> room treatment ? like Kal write is another story...


                                                                      the speaker at 1 or 1 and half meter from the wall is sure better vs. half meter...of course if you have a room from 10meters and you can place the mains at 4 or 3meters from the wall the sound / soundstage go so high like never thinked... :T

                                                                      a pannel (obsorber or/and diffuser) on the wall rear the mains speakers is a go thing, in the corner a 90° absorber for LF is too another good solution...
                                                                      the street is long!


                                                                      style

                                                                      Comment

                                                                      • mrciave
                                                                        Senior Member
                                                                        • Apr 2010
                                                                        • 105

                                                                        #36
                                                                        Well, soon i'm going to start another thread about the treatment of my room, and all help will be appreciated.

                                                                        Kal, in the meantime, can you suggest some measurement equipment to measure room response? Being a pure 2ch guy, I don't have all the room EQ tools available in the processors. I was thinking about a data acquisition/ADC USB card plus a proper microphone.

                                                                        FFT and all those things I can program myself, but sure if there's a proper software, commonly used so that when I post results it's immediately comparable, also that is welcome.

                                                                        There's also another thing that I have in mind: in the past, when working on noise and vibration, the system we used actually fed an amplifier with the test signal, then a shaker/speaker would create the vibration/noise, and you would measure the response by accelerometers/microphones. In this way, you could measure the FRF (frequency response function) in terms of amplitude and phase.

                                                                        So, do we have systems that plug in the amplifier through analog inputs, or in the DAC, and at the same time measure the response? If I go the route of a test CD, then I can measure only amplitudes...
                                                                        2ch Setup: Esoteric SA-50, Linn Sondek LP-12 with Lingo and Ittok, Benz Ace SL, Gryphon Diablo, B&W 802D, Kubala-Sosna Emotion XLR and Speaker, Purist Audio Dominus power cords with Oyaide C/P-004/046, Finite-Elemente Pagode Master Reference, Cerapuc, Cerabase, Bybees

                                                                        Home Theater Setup: Panasonic P50VT50T Plasma, Oppo BDP-95 BD Player with digital optical to Esoteric

                                                                        Comment

                                                                        • Kal Rubinson
                                                                          Super Senior Member
                                                                          • Mar 2006
                                                                          • 2109

                                                                          #37
                                                                          Ask and ye shall receive!
                                                                          Depends on your budget but the de facto standard for home users is RoomEQ Wizard. Other packages that will do these things are TEF, RplusD, etc.

                                                                          For complete packages at low price, there are XTZ and OmniMic.
                                                                          Kal Rubinson
                                                                          _______________________________
                                                                          "Music in the Round"
                                                                          Senior Contributing Editor, Stereophile
                                                                          http://forum.stereophile.com/category/music-round

                                                                          Comment

                                                                          • mrciave
                                                                            Senior Member
                                                                            • Apr 2010
                                                                            • 105

                                                                            #38
                                                                            Thanks. RoomEQ seems pretty spot on, the point is about which sound card then and which microphone.

                                                                            I'll do some search...
                                                                            2ch Setup: Esoteric SA-50, Linn Sondek LP-12 with Lingo and Ittok, Benz Ace SL, Gryphon Diablo, B&W 802D, Kubala-Sosna Emotion XLR and Speaker, Purist Audio Dominus power cords with Oyaide C/P-004/046, Finite-Elemente Pagode Master Reference, Cerapuc, Cerabase, Bybees

                                                                            Home Theater Setup: Panasonic P50VT50T Plasma, Oppo BDP-95 BD Player with digital optical to Esoteric

                                                                            Comment

                                                                            • style
                                                                              Super Senior Member
                                                                              • Feb 2006
                                                                              • 1562

                                                                              #39
                                                                              Hi Andrea,




                                                                              A lot of "good review" for the lyngdorf...., sure more expensive vs. 10 pannel but of the papier is very amazing....

                                                                              possibilty to be tested.... 8)


                                                                              style

                                                                              Comment

                                                                              • Skyblue
                                                                                Senior Member
                                                                                • Jun 2009
                                                                                • 504

                                                                                #40
                                                                                Originally posted by style
                                                                                Hi Andrea,




                                                                                A lot of "good review" for the lyngdorf...., sure more expensive vs. 10 pannel but of the papier is very amazing....

                                                                                possibilty to be tested.... 8)


                                                                                style
                                                                                I have heard it on 802di's at ny dealers. While it certainly improved some aspects of the Sound I preferred the Sound without alterations. Take a listen before you buy.
                                                                                B&W 800 Diamond, B&W805S, B&W DB1, Classe SSP 800, DIY Icepower ASX2 600W monos, Ayre QB9, JPlay.

                                                                                Comment

                                                                                • mrciave
                                                                                  Senior Member
                                                                                  • Apr 2010
                                                                                  • 105

                                                                                  #41
                                                                                  Room correction? Mmm... I'd rather improve the room, especially because no room correction equalization can affect an anti-resonance in the bass. Zero stays zero no matter the gain.
                                                                                  2ch Setup: Esoteric SA-50, Linn Sondek LP-12 with Lingo and Ittok, Benz Ace SL, Gryphon Diablo, B&W 802D, Kubala-Sosna Emotion XLR and Speaker, Purist Audio Dominus power cords with Oyaide C/P-004/046, Finite-Elemente Pagode Master Reference, Cerapuc, Cerabase, Bybees

                                                                                  Home Theater Setup: Panasonic P50VT50T Plasma, Oppo BDP-95 BD Player with digital optical to Esoteric

                                                                                  Comment

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