In wall speaker install and enclosure

[kjgarrison]

Hello everybody. Love this site, btw. I just spent an hour looking for something similar enough to my situation. No luck, so here goes.

gawd... I just looked at this and it is waaaay too long ...

I have an "entertainment center" that I hope to install in-wall speakers into. I found a guy in Australia that used the Polk Audio LC265i speakers in a proscenium and he says it worked very well for him. I'm looking at the LC65i, but it could be the 265i as well. I don't think it matters for my questions.

The speakers are Polk Audio LC65i http://www.polkaudio.com/homeaudio/p.../inwall/lci65/
I'm going with this because of the Tweeter level switch and the wall distance toggle switch, two features that I believe (hope?) will overcome some of the problems with in-cabinet speakers.

There is an enclousre that can be purchased but it is very expensive ($250) and would not fit anyway http://www.polkaudio.com/education/t...icle.php?id=29

The volume of this enclosure is 1.0 cu ft. As you can see from the picture, being an in-wall device it is designed to fit between 16" studs and only as deep as a 2x4, so it is long and shallow. I can't use those dimensions, and, like the Aussie, plan to build my own. He says it's OK as long as the volume is correct.

Now, to the cabinet where this will be placed: Dimensions are 17" x 20" x 32" for each speaker's "cubicle". The EC is attached to the wall, and on the other side of that wall is a bedroom. (Nice, huh? I didn't design the house ... only bought it). TV viewing currently bothers anybody sleeping in the BR.

Here is what I hope to do:

1. Put sound attenuation materials on the back wall of every part of the EC. The back is wood, so I am thinking maybe just MDF.
2. Put sound attenuation materials on the other side (the bedroom wall.) Thinking just another layer of sheetrock with green glue, soundrite, or maybe the soundchannel product.
3. Build extra sound attenuation into the cubicles where the speakers go ... sort of a "box in a box" effect. This will is where I need help.
4. Build my own enclosures for the speakers to the specs as shown by Polk (1.0 cu ft.) Looking at MDF, of couse but need some help.

Mostly I need to know:

• If anybody has built speaker enclosures for these Polk in-walls. and if not
• Do the dimensions matter if the volume is correct (1.0 cu ft) keeping in mind that apparent down firing Power Port?
• Can you tell if I need to have baffle(s) or ports in the enclosure? The info on the speakers says they have Power Ports, and the diagram associated seems to show the port aiming downward. With the length of the Polk enclosure and the shortness of what mine will have to be, I'm concerned that the benefit of this Power Port will be lost in some way.
• What else I should do to make the enclousures work.
• Is there a link or a "how to" already posted or in existence that I should look at?
• Any suggestions about dealing with the void in the cabinet between the speaker enclosure and the cubicle walls? Best treatments, best materials, fillers, etc.

I know it would be better not to have in-wall speakers, so needn't bother telling me ... unless, that is, you know of a product that makes my wife willing to accept speakers that can actually be seen.

[servicetech]

I can't see spending $800 on an "in wall" design, I think you could spend a lot less and get most of the sound quality.

1: Will you be placing the speakers close to the edge of the entertainment center?
2: What are you doing for a center channel?
3: What are you doing for speaker grilles?
4: Will you have a sub for the bass?

[ThomasW]

That anyone would sell for $800 a pair of speakers containing $40 tweeters and $30 woofers is IMO obscene....

Would the wife accept these? They mount on the wall with hinges, and are pushed back against it when not used. They're angled out when in use.
https://web.archive.org/web/20080513215824/http://www.magnepan.com/model_MMGW

[servicetech]

Thomas, did you see the crossover on these $800 speakers? It looks like a bar core inductor and electrolytic cap, the high end looks like a mylar cap w/air core inductor. Maybe $20 in crossover parts? Got to love the spring loaded terminals to boot.

Do you think any of the proven designs in the mission accomplished section would work well in the entertainment center?

[ThomasW]

Yes I saw the crossover.

We have in-wall/on-wall designs in the Missions Accomplished section

[Dennis H]

There's an inwall version of the Modula MT which should handily kick the Polk's booty. Should cost a small fraction of the Polk. Put 'em in a sealed enclosure about 10 liters and they will cross perfectly to a sub at 80 Hz.

There's also an inwall version of the Natalie P for a bit more. Make the sealed enclosure about 20 liters and cross at 80 again. The impedance of the inwall Nat is a bit low for some receivers though.

https://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php?t=22625

https://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php?t=22626

[kjgarrison]

I can't see spending $800 on an "in wall" design, I think you could spend a lot less and get most of the sound quality.

1: Will you be placing the speakers close to the edge of the entertainment center?
2: What are you doing for a center channel?
3: What are you doing for speaker grilles?
4: Will you have a sub for the bass?

1. Here is a picture, assuming I can post pics as a newb. The blackened areas lower left and right, plus center below the TV is where I'm planning to put the speakers.
2. For center either the in-wall center that matches, or just another of the same.
3. For grilles, just covering the opening with speaker grille fabric, not the grilles that come with in-walls.
4. Yes I will have a sub.

I am certainly open to other suggestions. They are available for around half of the MSRP. I do want quality sound, and the features of these speakers and price is comparable in my limited information to other inwall speakers. But by all means tell me what would be better and still get +WAF.

[kjgarrison]

That anyone would sell for $800 a pair of speakers containing $40 tweeters and $30 woofers is IMO obscene....

Would the wife accept these? They mount on the wall with hinges, and are pushed back against it when not used. They're angled out when in use.
https://web.archive.org/web/20080513215824/http://www.magnepan.com/model_MMGW

Man, you guys are awesome! She might very well. If you look at the pic I posted just above, I'm not sure if is shows it very well, but on the right side of the "EC" there is a wall about one foot away. On the left side the wall is behind the EC about 2 feet back. SO, I'm thinking they would have to be hung from the R and L edges of the EC. Not sure if they would have a problem with the limited space behind on the right or not.
EDIT: BTW, I live only 2 hours from magnepan in the twin cities

[kjgarrison]

Thomas, did you see the crossover on these $800 speakers? It looks like a bar core inductor and electrolytic cap, the high end looks like a mylar cap w/air core inductor. Maybe $20 in crossover parts? Got to love the spring loaded terminals to boot.

Do you think any of the proven designs in the mission accomplished section would work well in the entertainment center?

So you're saying bad things about these speakers I gather.

And the mission accomplished section is something more than just where you guys show off the speakers you build? Things can be bought from there?

[ThomasW]

In the picture you see 4 speakers, 2 are being used as a 'center channel', then there a single left and right main.

They're designed to interact with the wall to boost the bass (but don't expect a lot). They have a hinge like a saloon door.. so they stay against the wall when not being used, and are swung out at an angle to the wall when being used.

These are designed to be used with a sub. They have ZERO output below 80Hz.

[ThomasW]

So you're saying bad things about these speakers I gather.

And the mission accomplished section is something more than just where you guys show off the speakers you build? Things can be bought from there?

We're saying that as usual retail in-wall speakers are a rip-off, much more so than retail stand-alone speakers.

The Missions Accomplished speakers are designs people can build for themselves. We don't sell anything. Just copy what you see in the thread, there are references to suppliers in the threads...

Unless you completely rebuild the wall, any in-wall is going to transfer energy into the BR.

[kjgarrison]

There's an inwall version of the Modula MT which should handily kick the Polk's booty. Should cost a small fraction of the Polk. Put 'em in a sealed enclosure about 10 liters and they will cross perfectly to a sub at 80 Hz.

There's also an inwall version of the Natalie P for a bit more. Make the sealed enclosure about 20 liters and cross at 80 again. The impedance of the inwall Nat is a bit low for some receivers though.

https://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php?t=22625

https://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php?t=22626

I looked at those links. Greek to me, but you guys are light years ahead of me on this, so I take your word for it. 3 ohms? Wow. Well, in fact I don't yet have a receiver, and the Polks are 4 ohms. I have been looking at the upper midlevel Denon, Yamaha, or Pio Elite (all ~ $1500). Would these work or do I need to look at something else.

I'm extremely grateful, guys, for your help. Extremely.

[ThomasW]

You'll get much more for your $1500 here...

http://www.emotiva.com/products.html

They're currently upgrading most their models, that's why they're out of stock. Here are some pricing references

http://www.emotiva.com/mmc1.html

http://www.emotiva.com/lpa1.html

FWIW none of us work for or are associated with any audio/video companies. We recommend equipment based on hands-on experience.. And some of us are old enough to have a lot of that particular experience....

[kjgarrison]

You'll get much more for your $1500 here...

http://www.emotiva.com/products.html

They're currently upgrading most their models, that's why they're out of stock. Here are some pricing references

http://www.emotiva.com/mmc1.html

http://www.emotiva.com/lpa1.html

FWIW none of us work for or are associated with any audio/video companies. We recommend equipment based on hands-on experience.. And some of us are old enough to have a lot of that particular experience....

Nice stuff. Very nice. I have a very good feeling about my rig after you guys are done with it.

[kjgarrison]

In the picture you see 4 speakers, 2 are being used as a 'center channel', then there a single left and right main.

They're designed to interact with the wall to boost the bass (but don't expect a lot). They have a hinge like a saloon door.. so they stay against the wall when not being used, and are swung out at an angle to the wall when being used.

These are designed to be used with a sub. They have ZERO output below 80Hz.

And I see they also have a single center speaker option as well. I don't think I have enough width on the wall to spread 4 of these out like those in the picture. Unless, that is the far right one could be along the right sidewall. To result in the same angle, it would be probably 6-7 feet closer and only 3 feet from the listening position.

But if the sides of the EC could be used (with two feet of space behind) along with a center below the TV, then this would work. Maybe they have smaller models. I'll check.

[kjgarrison]

We're saying that as usual retail in-wall speakers are a rip-off, much more so than retail stand-alone speakers.

The Missions Accomplished speakers are designs people can build for themselves. We don't sell anything. Just copy what you see in the thread, there are references to suppliers in the threads...

Unless you completely rebuild the wall, any in-wall is going to transfer energy into the BR.

I'm going to go see what it takes to put together one of those two IWs in Missions Accomplished. Which of the two has an associated center option, or would I just build a 3rd of the same? What about surrounds? I will have to have two side surrounds as in-ceiling, and the two rears can be inwall or inceiling.

I'll get over to the twin cities and look at the Maggies. They are intriguing.

Once again, thank you guys a TON.

[servicetech]

Nice stuff. Very nice. I have a very good feeling about my rig after you guys are done with it.

Makes you realize how little you get for $1,500 at the big box store.

[kjgarrison]

There's an inwall version of the Modula MT which should handily kick the Polk's booty. Should cost a small fraction of the Polk. Put 'em in a sealed enclosure about 10 liters and they will cross perfectly to a sub at 80 Hz.

There's also an inwall version of the Natalie P for a bit more. Make the sealed enclosure about 20 liters and cross at 80 again. The impedance of the inwall Nat is a bit low for some receivers though.

https://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php?t=22625

https://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php?t=22626

Regarding the Modula MT. Just so I can begin to understand how to do all of this. The link is about the unique crossover design & components to be used for the Modula MT for in-wall. You said to build a 10 liter enclosure. There is one enclosure shown in the thread, but it is a true in-wall enclosure that is long and fits between 16" studs and is shallow to match a 2x4.

In my situation the enclosure would not be able to be so long. It would need to be more boxy. Sort of more like a regular speaker! Should I just build a "regular" Modula MT box, use the special "in-wall" crossover, and then install my box into this cabinet space (mabye with the grille sticking out an inch or two)?

In either case can I get all the electronics in a kit from Parts Express, or do I order them singly?

Do you have any suggestion about a center speaker? Maybe just a third Modula MT of the same? I need to do in-ceiling surrounds and in-wall, possibly also in-ceiling rears. Are there designs that would be timbre matched to the front 3?

This is really exciting, but it's a little intimidating to consider all that woodworking and soldering ... not to mention that I want these speakers sometime in this lifetime.

And regrardless of what I do with Modula MT boxes, I still need to know what is best to do with the large amount of empty space outside this speaker box but inside the cabinet space.

[kjgarrison]

Makes you realize how little you get for $1,500 at the big box store.

I know. It's hard to overcome old sayings like, "You get what you pay for." I think the stores and name brands count on that!

[kjgarrison]

What about a front ported bookshelf with the "in-wall" custom crossover circuit?

These speakers supposedly compensate for bookshelf/cabinet placement to a degree with their front port and Tractrix Horn. It doesn't say anything about a special crossover along the lines of what you have shown me in the DIY world (an eye-opening for me.)

http://www.klipsch.com/products/details/rb-61.aspx

You guys said that the BBS ripoff with in-walls was more than other speakers.

What about a speaker like this? Or is there is a DIY that would improve upon performance and/or price? I keep thinking about the Modula MT with its "enclosure" actually just being a regular speaker, but with a custom crossover. Is this the way to go?

How long does it take to build a speaker? (Keeping in mind that I don't need to do anything with external finish or appearance.)

[servicetech]

I think the Klipsh would sound every bit as good as th $800 Polks. I don't see how they are getting a 95db sensitivity out of a 6.5" woofer with a 43hz -3db point.

Most of the time in building a speaker comes from building/finishing the cabinets. I think the Modulas will offer a lot more bank/buck than anything you buy at the store pre-made.

[ThomasW]

These speakers supposedly compensate for bookshelf/cabinet placement to a degree with their front port and Tractrix Horn. It doesn't say anything about a special crossover along the lines of what you have shown me in the DIY world (an eye-opening for me.)

There's a problem taking a free-standing speaker and using it in-wall/on-wall/near-wall. This is a function of the crossover having what's called BSC (baffle step compensation). This is a contouring circuit that compensates for the speaker being away from the wall. If one uses a speaker with BSC in or on-wall, the midbass will sound 'muddy' as a function of the BSC circuit.

The construction time for any speaker is dependent on the builder's woodworking experience and his soldering skills.

Another viable option would be to have a custom builder design and build speakers specifically for your installation. Not as cheap as DIY it will certainly be less than the high prices most Mfgrs charge for their in-walls. (the primary reason in-wall/on-wall retail offerings are so expensive is the cost of custom tooling and the limited demand for the product.

[kjgarrison]

I think the Klipsh would sound every bit as good as th $800 Polks. I don't see how they are getting a 95db sensitivity out of a 6.5" woofer with a 43hz -3db point.

Most of the time in building a speaker comes from building/finishing the cabinets. I think the Modulas will offer a lot more bank/buck than anything you buy at the store pre-made.

Thanks for your reply. Just to clarify about the Polks' price. $800 is MSRP for a pair. Street price is a little over half that, or very close to what it appears the components cost for the Modula in-walls recommended here. So it isn't really a bang for the buck issue; just bang. I got the impression that you guys thought the Modula was flat out better.

[kjgarrison]

There's a problem taking a free-standing speaker and using it in-wall/on-wall/near-wall. This is a function of the crossover having what's called BSC (baffle step compensation). This is a contouring circuit that compensates for the speaker being away from the wall. If one uses a speaker with BSC in or on-wall, the midbass will sound 'muddy' as a function of the BSC circuit.

The construction time for any speaker is dependent on the builder's woodworking experience and his soldering skills.

Another viable option would be to have a custom builder design and build speakers specifically for your installation. Not as cheap as DIY it will certainly be less than the high prices most Mfgrs charge for their in-walls. (the primary reason in-wall/on-wall retail offerings are so expensive is the cost of custom tooling and the limited demand for the product.

I'm new to this, and I don't know if a "bookshelf" is considered a free standng speaker. It appears you do, and I'll catalogue this as another of my ill informed ideas.

Speaking of which, what about my question about building a Modula MT with the 10 liter box and using the special Modula in-wall crossover and installing this exactly as I would if it were an in-wall? I don't know if 10 liter box is bigger, smaller, or the same as the cabinet ordinarily used for Modula MT. I only mention 10 liters because of the earlier post by DennisH.

[Brian Bunge]

That's what I'd probably do. Build the 10L enclosure, which is about right for a sealed RS180, and then make the baffle the size of the opening you are going to install the finished speaker in. Then I'd just paint the baffle black so that you won't see raw MDF through your grill cloth.

[ThomasW]

I'm new to this, and I don't know if a "bookshelf" is considered a free standng speaker. It appears you do, and I'll catalogue this as another of my ill informed ideas.

The term bookshelve refers to the size of a box that will sit on a shelf. It doesn't mean they're actually designed with that placement in mind.

Speaking of which, what about my question about building a Modula MT with the 10 liter box and using the special Modula in-wall crossover and installing this exactly as I would if it were an in-wall? I don't know if 10 liter box is bigger, smaller, or the same as the cabinet ordinarily used for Modula MT. I only mention 10 liters because of the earlier post by DennisH.

What Brian said...

In addition understand that a 10L sealed box isn't going to have much bass ouput. Any In-wall/on-wall should be used with a separate stand-alone sub, if you want to hear the low bass.

[Brian Bunge]

The term bookshelve refers to the size of a box that will sit on a shelf. It doesn't mean they're actually designed with that placement in mind.

What Brian said...

In addition understand that a 10L sealed box isn't going to have much bass ouput. Any In-wall/on-wall should be used with a separate stand-alone sub, if you want to hear the low bass.

I just love it when other people agree with me!

I guess as long as he has enough height to add a port to the front baffle they could be built ported as well. Last time I checked something like 18-20L looked pretty good ported. I imagine there's plenty of room for the added volume that the cabinet would require.

[servicetech]

Would the grill cause any problems with airflow from the port?

[Dennis H]

I just love it when other people agree with me!

I guess as long as he has enough height to add a port to the front baffle they could be built ported as well. Last time I checked something like 18-20L looked pretty good ported. I imagine there's plenty of room for the added volume that the cabinet would require.

Sealed mains blend better with subs if you're using a receiver to do the crossover -- the old different slope highpass and lowpass thing that THX pioneered. An RS180 in 10 L is almost perfect for an 80 Hz cross but of course as everyone has said they won't work that way without a sub.

[kjgarrison]

The term bookshelve refers to the size of a box that will sit on a shelf. It doesn't mean they're actually designed with that placement in mind.

What Brian said...

In addition understand that a 10L sealed box isn't going to have much bass ouput. Any In-wall/on-wall should be used with a separate stand-alone sub, if you want to hear the low bass.

Yep, sub for sure. I don't just want to hear the low bass, I want to feel it.

[ThomasW]

Yep, sub for sure. I don't just want to hear the low bass, I want to feel it.

That's of course impossible...frequencies above 20Hz are audible, frequencies below ~20Hz are inaudible.

[kjgarrison]

I just love it when other people agree with me!

I guess as long as he has enough height to add a port to the front baffle they could be built ported as well. Last time I checked something like 18-20L looked pretty good ported. I imagine there's plenty of room for the added volume that the cabinet would require.

The volume of the enclosed cabinet is approximately 180 liters. It is 17" (43.2cm) x 32" (81.3cm) frontal area ... and 20" (50.8cm) deep. So I need to put in layers of wallboard, and fill up a lot of space outside of whatever box we (ok, you guys) end up deciding on.

I just want to say that, whatever it takes, I want to do this right (within reason.) I want the best sound I can get. If were are talking $300 worth of electronics/speakers/enclosure for option 1 and $500 for a much better option2, then it will be option 2. If it's $3000 for the much better one, that's a different story.

In fact if there are crossover setups that have wall proximity switches/adjustments like some commercial speakers have, I'm interested.

I really appreciate your help guys.

[Dennis H]

So I need to put in layers of wallboard, and fill up a lot of space outside of whatever box we (ok, you guys) end up deciding on.

Just stuff the extra space with fiberglass insulation and it will be fine.

[Brian Bunge]

Just stuff the extra space with fiberglass insulation and it will be fine.

Or go to a craft store and pick up some pieces of foam to use to line the area in between the speaker cabinet and the entertainment center. Either way, isolating the speaker from the entertainment center will help to keep the entertainment center from vibrating.