Worth upgrading amps or overkill?

[RalphoR]

Right now my home theater set up has a pair of 802Ds with an HTM2D across the front and two pairs of DS8Ss for surrounds. I have a CA-3200 driving the fronts and a CA-5100 running the rest. Everything works great and sounds great but in the back of my mind I feel like I'm not giving the my speakers, especially the 802s, enough juice....kinda like giving a dehydrated man a dixie cup to quench his thirst.

I can do one of three things:

A) Get a new CA-5300 to replace the CA-3200 to drive the fronts/sides and use the CA-5100 to drive the rears and use an extra couple channels to run a pair of in-wall bathroom speakers.

B) Add a new CA-2300 to drive the 802s; Keep the other amps to run the rest.

C) Do nothing because it sounds all good.

My question would be do I have enough power to run my speakers as is or with an upgrade will I hear a big enough difference to justify a new amp? Thanks for any opinions in advance!

Ralph

[ninja12]

Right now my home theater set up has a pair of 802Ds with an HTM2D across the front and two pairs of DS8Ss for surrounds. I have a CA-3200 driving the fronts and a CA-5100 running the rest. Everything works great and sounds great but in the back of my mind I feel like I'm not giving the my speakers, especially the 802s, enough juice....kinda like giving a dehydrated man a dixie cup to quench his thirst.

I can do one of three things:

A) Get a new CA-5300 to replace the CA-3200 to drive the fronts/sides and use the CA-5100 to drive the rears and use an extra couple channels to run a pair of in-wall bathroom speakers.

B) Add a new CA-2300 to drive the 802s; Keep the other amps to run the rest.

C) Do nothing because it sounds all good.

My question would be do I have enough power to run my speakers as is or with an upgrade will I hear a big enough difference to justify a new amp? Thanks for any opinions in advance!

Ralph

If option "C" is really true, then why bother to upgrade? Are you looking to achieve a higher SPL? If you are, you will have to double the power you have now just to achieve a higher SPL of 3db. So, you will have to at least go to 400 watts per channel for your fronts and 200 watts per channel for your surrounds and rears, and that's just to achieve a 3db gain. Going to a 300 watts per channel amp will only get you about, maybe, a 1db gain in SPL. How far do you sit from your mains? How loud do you listen to your setup? Do you really need to upgrade your equipment or do you really need to add acoustic panels to your listening room? I will tell you that if your room is the problem, no electronics in the world is going to fix your room. If you are trying to fix your room with electronics, then you are fighting a losing battle that you will never win with electronics, and you are wasting your time and money.

I am not trying to discourage you. I just really don't want you throwing away your money and then be disappointed.

I hope I was a help.

[wettou]

If option "C" is really true, then why bother to upgrade? Are you looking to achieve a higher SPL? If you are, you will have to double the power you have now just to achieve a higher SPL of 3db. So, you will have to at least go to 400 watts per channel for your fronts and 200 watts per channel for your surrounds and rears, and that's just to achieve a 3db gain. Going to a 300 watts per channel amp will only get you about, maybe, a 1db gain in SPL. How far do you sit from your mains? How loud do you listen to your setup? Do you really need to upgrade your equipment or do you really need to add acoustic panels to your listening room? I will tell you that if your room is the problem, no electronics in the world is going to fix your room. If you are trying to fix your room with electronics, then you are fighting a losing battle that you will never win with electronics, and you are wasting your time and money.

I am not trying to discourage you. I just really don't want you throwing away your money and then be disappointed.

I hope I was a help.

Agreed unless you go to the new CA-M600 don't bother or just sit closer and you will see :T

[htsteve]

RalphoR,

I agree with the others. I'm not sure those upgrades will do much for you. You have a very good setup now.

I do have a couple of thoughts for you. First, what is your pre-amp/processor? An upgrade here might help. Another thought is acoustic treatments. That is an area that can make a pretty noticable improvement as a very reasonable cost. Certainly less than new Classe amps.

Also, do you have a sub? If yes, is it on par with the B&W's and Classe. This is another area to consider.


Hope this helps.

[RalphoR]

Thanks for the replies. I'm happy with what I have but I spent a lot of money and just wanted to make sure I'm not short changing my speakers with sub-par power. I'm running all of this with an SSP-800 and I'm sitting 11 feet away from a 105" screen. I have two subs: Boston Acoustics PV1000s. Probably not on the B&W level but close. I'll fight off the upgrade bug and stay put. Thanks, again to all!

Ralph

[htsteve]

Ralph,

Sounds like a good plan. I would still suggest acoustic treatments. A lot of bang for the buck performance. I use Real Traps, with very nice results.

Here is the order of treatments I would do, based on my experience.

1st point reflections for main speakers (floor, then side walls).
Bass Traps
1st point reflection on ceiling
Upper corners
Back wall
Rear side walls.


Hope this helps.

[beden1]

If you are using the balanced connections between your SSP-800 and your Classe amps, you are getting a 3dB gain over using the RCA connections.

On this subject, I have a question. I recently brought my Classe CP-500 pre-amp up to my house where I've been putting together a stereo only system. I have been using an Aragon 24K II pre-amp and an Aragon 8008 amplifier (2x200 watts per channel) with RCA connections (no balanced connections available). They are driving a pair of B&W 804Di speakers.

I connected the CP-500 using RCA connections and found the volume was less than half of what it is when I have the volume control set at about the same level on the Aragon pre-amp. On the Aragon, the music is also much fuller and detailed at the lower volumes. For example, 1/4 volume on the Aragon pre-amp equals a 55% volume gain on the CP-500 to achieve the same perceived audible volume output. (I did not use any meters)

I'm thinking the CP-500 has some internal design favoring using balanced connections, or ? It's puzzling to me as to what may be happening, because as as it stands now, my 30 year old Aragon pre-amp is kicking the CP-500's butt in clarity and overall sound quality? (it really should not be as the CP-500 sounded great on my other system using the balanced connections with my Classe CAM-350 mono amps).

Or, did I figure out that Classe manipulates the sound through their pre-amps, in order to provide the sweet sounding output they are famous for, and thus limiting the volume output to minimize distortion? If this is the case, then that may be the reason why most of us seem to crave more power in order to get the fullness of sound that we seek?

[wettou]

If you are using the balanced connections between your SSP-800 and your Classe amps, you are getting a 3dB gain over using the RCA connections.

Is that true never heard this before!

[mjb]

Balanced is 3db "hotter" than RCA - all this really means you can turn the volume knob down 3db for the same SPL. I'd recommend using balanced interconnects whenever possible though, especially between Classé components, they need not be expensive either.

[style]

Hi RalphoR,

your system is a 7.2 or?

well i don'tbelieve i a 7.x system ...I go in 5.1 and I find this more as enough, but is a personal taste.....

I use a CA3200 for the Center and the rear, a CA2200 for the L&R. SSP800 as preampli.

I purchase a CA2300 to drive the L&R and I find a good thing. Use the Xlr give you a 3db. vs. the Rca but more important a great "dialogue" from the SSP and the power ampli (of course from the same brand)
like wrote from mjb is not necessary a "extra expensive cable". a good cable in XLR , the same model from each channel, a lot of brands availables ....

Classé pre & Classé amplifier work very fine, a Classé pre (ro ampli) with another brands on the other side (pre or ampli) give you "only" bad resultat..

the acoustic treatments is very recommended!! if you think that 40% of the final sound is given from your room ..... :E ..consider the acoustic treatment :T
do you have a dedicat HT room or what?

I will say partial acoustic treatment, keep the CA3200. if you listen much music in stereo a CA2300 can give you a good improvement with the B&W802....
for the ca5100 not easy: if you are a fans from a 7.x system keep it too...sell for little money dont "pay"...but a CA2300 with the CA3200 , SSP , 2 sub and a rear like 804d or so like that for me is the top.


style

[wettou]

Balanced is 3db "hotter" than RCA - all this really means you can turn the volume knob down 3db for the same SPL. I'd recommend using balanced interconnects whenever possible though, especially between Classé components, they need not be expensive either.

I use Mogami cables with Neutrik connectors

[beden1]

Balanced is 3db "hotter" than RCA - all this really means you can turn the volume knob down 3db for the same SPL. I'd recommend using balanced interconnects whenever possible though, especially between Classé components, they need not be expensive either.

If "hotter" you mean gain, then that is what I am under the impression is the correct statement...that the balanced connections provide a 3dB gain over the RCA connections, similar to what you would get if you doubled your amp output.

[mjb]

OK, but "gain" implies amplification. With a balanced signal the level is mealy 3 db higher. Its strictly wrong to talk about one connector type having a "gain" over another. The reason for this higher level is that with a balanced interconnect, the signal and its inverse are presented, each at 0db with respect to ground, but at 3db with respect to each other. eg, +1, 0, -1 : a polar difference of 2, or 3db. The amplifiers input circuit is differential, summing the input, canceling any common mode signals such as interference and/or noise. So the advantage of a balanced signal is common mode rejection and a lower noise floor, not specifically that the signal is 3db higher in level, although this does mean the volume control can be set 3db lower for the same effective SPL.

But who cares about all of that! At the end of the day, upgrading to balanced interconnects, with gear that supports it, may well provide a cost effective and very satisfying upgrade. :T

And, as its been said, the interconnects need not be crazy expensive. I'd go for "studio patch cables" which will arguably perform just as well as something really exotic and expensive.

[quan325i]

a 3dB gain is a lot in amplification as dB scale is logarithmic (x10).

[indiebands]

OK, but "gain" implies amplification. With a balanced signal the level is mealy 3 db higher. Its strictly wrong to talk about one connector type having a "gain" over another. The reason for this higher level is that with a balanced interconnect, the signal and its inverse are presented, each at 0db with respect to ground, but at 3db with respect to each other. eg, +1, 0, -1 : a polar difference of 2, or 3db. The amplifiers input circuit is differential, summing the input, canceling any common mode signals such as interference and/or noise. So the advantage of a balanced signal is common mode rejection and a lower noise floor, not specifically that the signal is 3db higher in level, although this does mean the volume control can be set 3db lower for the same effective SPL.

But who cares about all of that! At the end of the day, upgrading to balanced interconnects, with gear that supports it, may well provide a cost effective and very satisfying upgrade. :T

And, as its been said, the interconnects need not be crazy expensive. I'd go for "studio patch cables" which will arguably perform just as well as something really exotic and expensive.

Interesting discussion. I have been doing some AB testing between a Vincent CD player connected to a Vincent preamplifier using balanced XLR connection against a logitech Transporter playing the same recording (either CD quality or studio master FLAC) using RCA (quality cables) and have been stunned by the quality difference - the Vincent CD player wins hands down every time on soundstage and imaging. The sound from the transporter sounds as if its closed in a box. Could this difference really be connector/cable driven?

I have yet to experiment with switching the connections. I had come to the conclusion that the D/A converter in the Transporter must be inferior to the Vincent CD player. The huge difference in gain with balanced connections makes me wonder if that wasn't a hasty assumption. Thanks for any thoughts.

[beden1]

Interesting discussion. I have been doing some AB testing between a Vincent CD player connected to a Vincent preamplifier using balanced XLR connection against a logitech Transporter playing the same recording (either CD quality or studio master FLAC) using RCA (quality cables) and have been stunned by the quality difference - the Vincent CD player wins hands down every time on soundstage and imaging. The sound from the transporter sounds as if its closed in a box. Could this difference really be connector/cable driven?

I have yet to experiment with switching the connections. I had come to the conclusion that the D/A converter in the Transporter must be inferior to the Vincent CD player. The huge difference in gain with balanced connections makes me wonder if that wasn't a hasty assumption. Thanks for any thoughts.

I have the same question with a stereo only system I've been putting together. I recently connected a Classe CP-500 pre-amp to my Aragon 2 x 200 watts per channel amp. The amp only has RCA connections. In this situation, I found that the CP-500 sounds restrained and somewhat "muffled" as compared to when I had it connected using the balanced connections in another system.

But, what has me really puzzled, is that my Aragon pre-amp that only has RCA connections, sounds much better and more detailed/open than does my CP-500 when connected to the same amp? This really shouldn't be, as I really feel the CP-500 has a better overall sound, as I experienced for a couple of years when it was used in my other system.

I am also interested in learning what's up? Are the components with balanced connections, designed to function at their optimum, only through the balanced connections?