Moving from Klipsch to B&W?

[Vinny]

Hi guys,
A friend of mine is taking over my Klipsch RB-5II away from the surround left/right spots of my 5.1 system, I finally get a chance to enter the B&W world and start looking into those magnificent pieces! Being really excited that I am confused in the same time. After some review of preferences on myself and giving some thought, here's what I am really looking for:
A pair of surround speakers that replaces RB-5II
Most of the time(85% or even more) I will be watching movies, I do enjoy music but not priority anymore.
Moving the RF-3II to the surround and buying new floor standers is not an option: the apartment is set up so that the surround speaker spots can only take dipole surround speakers or bookshelves, the whole apartment would look weird if I place floor stander at surround even it's tempting to get B&W to be the front
Under 1000 or 1500 if possible(most likely 1000): since as the upgrade starts I will be spending around less than 1500-1800 on front and less than 1000 for the center. Spending around 1400 seems to be too much compared to how much I will be spending on the front and center speakers.
Used gears preferred: I am still a dental student that money is pretty big issue even I am kinda obsessed with this audio disease already :B . I definitely don't mind getting used speakers for better equipment with spending the same money as long as the speakers stayed in nonsmoking environment previously

I have been looking at audiogon for a while and they come up with various old models from time to time. I do understand the parts of 600/700/800 step ups but when other series kicks in I would have no idea what they are. On top of that even within 800 there are nautilus, matrix and D? Will they match if I am using different series for front/surround/center? I understand Diamond(Di?) is the current series in 800 but rest of them just confuses me.
With that much line up out there, any recommendation that I could get from expertise everyone has would be greatly appreciated.

[stuofsci02]

I am a little confused on what you are trying to accomplish since you post jumps around a lot. It must be the excitement. I will try to answer you question on on the series though..

In general B&W offers three series of speakers:

600 Series (B&W entry level)
CM Series (B&W mid level)
800 Series (B&W top of the line)

Each series will allow you to put together a system (stereo or multichannel). In general it is recommended to match speakers within one series. I am not doing this, only because upgrades take time.

When looking at older B&W speakers you will run across other series such as the 700 series or the CDM series. These are just older versions of one of the series listed above:

For instance, the currect 600 series are the 683, 684, 685 and 686. There used to be a 600, 601, 602, 602.5, 603, 604 and different revisions of those in the past.

The CM series replaced the 700 series which replaced the CDM series in the mid level offering.

The 800 series going back to the 90's had the 800 series matrix, 800 series Nautilis (referred to as 80xN were x could be a 0,1,2,3,4or 5), 800 Series D where D indicated a Diamond Tweeter (some of this series has a S for the 805S and 804S and 803S) which indicated the standard aluminium tweeter which was offered on the smaller 800 series speakers). Now in January the 800 series was released as the 800Di which represents the latest in Diamond tweeters where the whole 800 series is equipped with Diamond tweeter..

[emig5m]

Ok I went from the same generation 600 series to the 800 series in one year. Before getting the higher end series I wondered and wondered what the differences actually where. In the most basic terms and keeping a long story short, the same generation 600 and 800 series I've owned sound very similar tonally - they can be used together without much of a problem. The main noticeable differences is the higher end series sounds more open and outside the box with a more 3D soundstage, less colorations such as boomy bass that decays slower or that ever so slight boxy cheap cabinet sound and sounds overall more balanced and seamless through the bandwidth. When you compare prices, the 600's really do give you a great bang for the buck and take you a lot of the way there and are night and day above and beyond better performance than any lame big box store speakers, but the 800's give you the utmost performance and quality for the people who are very critical listeners and care about having the utmost performance and quality even if it comes at a dramatic price increase (also figure you're paying for high quality fine furniture look and finish).

When I heard my first competent CD player playing straight into a pair of decent headphones I was amazed at all the fine detail and clarity I was hearing. I almost stayed up all night listening to my CD collection for the first time again and hearing things I've never heard before. I thought no speaker would ever be able to have this level of clarity and fine subtle detail. But I got it now! :B

So anyone that is in my same boat I was in a year ago hopes don't get up too much there are some dramatic down sides to having a nice set of high end transparent speakers.... You're still going to have to take the time to set them up properly or it's all for nothing (I walked away from an amazing deal of a pair of mint less than a year old 803D for only $4800 because they didn't sound all that great or have the detail that my lowly 683's had because the setup wasn't optimized and the system was even running on high end Classe amps).

Decent room acoustics, placement (even listening position) all have to be precise. You're also going to need a clean signal path from start to finish because they're going to pass along the the signal to your ears for what it actually is and if something in the chain is degrading the signal (for an extreme example- build in PC sound analog output), you're going to hear the awfulness as it is. Heck on a transparent system I can even hear the difference in crappy digital resampling like a built in PC soundcard even on the digital output (why I'm a big stickler for no resampling and lossless digital bitstreaming - less signal sodomy the better) But don't worry, you don't necessarily need the highest end electronics to get the benefit of the nicer speakers - other than room, speakers seem to add the most distortion to the signal and are the hardest thing to get right compared to electronics which has come a long way over the years on the lower end. A lot of us on here are using Denons and Yamahas with the 800 series, nothing overly fancy, and getting great results. Just something decent and competent (Sony DG series need not apply, hehe) will get the job done (a separate powerful dedicated amp with plenty of current puts the final icing on the cake).

And lastly....the biggest downfall of having a nice high end and transparent speaker... is being at the mercy of the actual recording quality. Once the setup is all optimized this is going to be your main brick wall in the end result. Don't expect to be in amazement with a pair of 800 series with most of Ozzy Osbourne's recordings, heh. In fact, it will probably make you walk away in major disappointment and confusion over the hype of the higher end speakers. But on the other hand, with any competent recording you'll be taken to a much higher level than you've experienced before as with the high end speakers the brick wall in performance is shifted away from the speakers and onto the recording (i.e. most all recordings will sound of the same level on lesser speakers since the lesser speakers will be where you're brick-walled at, but the higher up you go shows how dramatic the differences in recordings actually are since the speakers or more open and filtering back much less of the signal).

So if you don't want to work with setup, possibly jumping through hoops depending on the room, and don't like the idea of spending big bucks just to be still limited by recording quality no matter how well the setup is, don't get the high end ones, lol. Hell, I can notice dramatic differences in sound quality from Xbox game to Xbox game....some are amazing sounding and shockingly realistic, and some sound like I'm still using Radio Shack speakers when it's not the speakers fault at all, lol. :rofl:

Now as far as Klipsch to B&W is concerned, I don't have a lot of experience with Klipsch but the few times I've heard them (which I don't consider big box store listening proper demoing) they sound more unnaturally sharper on the top end with not much of a natural and full midrange. When you hear someones voice that you know on a cell phone yea you recognize it's their voice and who it is, but you can tell it's colored, unnatural, and coming from a cell phone speaker and not their actual voice as if they where standing there talking to you in person. This is where in my experience B&W has set itself apart from most all other speakers I've heard- they can maintain that naturalness and sound more like the voice is there and not coming from a speaker. But then you're back to the problem of the actual recording quality being up to snuff.... Fun stuff, huh? :rofl:

One last thing, at least on the low end models, try to get a model with the FST midrange. You know how on a nice calibrated high definition widescreen how the IMAX scenes in the Dark Night are much more open and detailed looking? Almost like looking through a window into reality? That's how the FST mids are to midrange openness... Get the FST midded B&Ws if you can. :T

[Grasynoll]

The 685 is a real star in the 600 series. You can spend more and get less.

[audioqueso]

When I switched to B&W, I went from Klipsch Reference RF-5's to B&W 600 S3. There's a big difference in sound. Not which one is better, but a difference in what they offered. Klipsch did great for instrument and male voices. I thought the B&W did better for female voices and sound stage. Just my opinion, I think if you jumped from Klipsch to B&W 800 series, you will find the 800 series too laid back for what you're use to. Klipsch have a forward up-front sound, and B&W's are laid back. (This was the 600 Series 3. The current 600 series is Series 4.) Though the 800 series is B&W top of the line, I think someone switching from Klipsch would like the 600 series more.

[stuofsci02]

Though the 800 series is B&W top of the line, I think someone switching from Klipsch would like the 600 series more.

I have never had Klipsch before, but I can't imagine anyone selecting an equivilent size 600 speaker over an 800 speaker if price was not an issue. I have found 800 speakers to be similar tonally the 600 series in all the pleasing ways, but without the coloration..

[Vinny]

I am a little confused on what you are trying to accomplish since you post jumps around a lot. It must be the excitement. I will try to answer you question on on the series though..

In general B&W offers three series of speakers:

600 Series (B&W entry level)
CM Series (B&W mid level)
800 Series (B&W top of the line)

Each series will allow you to put together a system (stereo or multichannel). In general it is recommended to match speakers within one series. I am not doing this, only because upgrades take time.

When looking at older B&W speakers you will run across other series such as the 700 series or the CDM series. These are just older versions of one of the series listed above:

For instance, the currect 600 series are the 683, 684, 685 and 686. There used to be a 600, 601, 602, 602.5, 603, 604 and different revisions of those in the past.

The CM series replaced the 700 series which replaced the CDM series in the mid level offering.

The 800 series going back to the 90's had the 800 series matrix, 800 series Nautilis (referred to as 80xN were x could be a 0,1,2,3,4or 5), 800 Series D where D indicated a Diamond Tweeter (some of this series has a S for the 805S and 804S and 803S) which indicated the standard aluminium tweeter which was offered on the smaller 800 series speakers). Now in January the 800 series was released as the 800Di which represents the latest in Diamond tweeters where the whole 800 series is equipped with Diamond tweeter..

Thank you for the info! The explanation helps me a lot for understanding the series. I would probably be able to go to 700/600 series even getting them from used market. 800 series is still pretty confusing to me but I guess I don't have the budget to go up there for the mean time, one less thing to worry about

[Vinny]

-

I do agree with most part of your reply, a step up always make me pull out everything and listen/watch them all over again(fortunate enough that I don't have 500 movies and CDs to listen). I wouldn't say Klipsch is that bad to begin with, like audioqueso said they are different. I love the horn design from time to time when I watch the tv on my own.
Another point you did mention was the source, that is actually the main reason i give up orienting the system more to music. Limiting myself to high quality music/cds but not the music I really enjoy don't interest me much in long run. Most of the time I get to listen music these days are that 20minutes cooking time while I just turn on my htpc's flac list. And I noticed they are reaching the margin pretty soon from upgrading from Panny XR-55 to UMC-1 with Parasound 5125 recently compared to the upgrade I've gotten off watching movie.

[Vinny]

I am keeping my eyes on the used market that crossing my fingers to hope a pair of FST/CM series would show up :B I guess I would have to be satisfied with a pair of new 685 if none of these come up anytime soon.

Yet thanks for the experience everyone have shared, I'm greatly appreciated that spent the time to write something in such great detail(you guys even wrote like 3times more than I did and I am the one struggling with questions!) At least I am less confused now and know what I should look for while looking at audiogon etc.

[bigburner]

Ok I went from the same generation 600 series to the 800 series in one year. Before getting the higher end series I wondered and wondered what the differences actually where. In the most basic terms and keeping a long story short, the same generation 600 and 800 series I've owned sound very similar tonally - they can be used together without much of a problem. The main noticeable differences is the higher end series sounds more open and outside the box with a more 3D soundstage, less colorations such as boomy bass that decays slower or that ever so slight boxy cheap cabinet sound and sounds overall more balanced and seamless through the bandwidth. When you compare prices, the 600's really do give you a great bang for the buck and take you a lot of the way there and are night and day above and beyond better performance than any lame big box store speakers, but the 800's give you the utmost performance and quality for the people who are very critical listeners and care about having the utmost performance and quality even if it comes at a dramatic price increase (also figure you're paying for high quality fine furniture look and finish).

When I heard my first competent CD player playing straight into a pair of decent headphones I was amazed at all the fine detail and clarity I was hearing. I almost stayed up all night listening to my CD collection for the first time again and hearing things I've never heard before. I thought no speaker would ever be able to have this level of clarity and fine subtle detail. But I got it now! :B

So anyone that is in my same boat I was in a year ago hopes don't get up too much there are some dramatic down sides to having a nice set of high end transparent speakers.... You're still going to have to take the time to set them up properly or it's all for nothing (I walked away from an amazing deal of a pair of mint less than a year old 803D for only $4800 because they didn't sound all that great or have the detail that my lowly 683's had because the setup wasn't optimized and the system was even running on high end Classe amps).

Decent room acoustics, placement (even listening position) all have to be precise. You're also going to need a clean signal path from start to finish because they're going to pass along the the signal to your ears for what it actually is and if something in the chain is degrading the signal (for an extreme example- build in PC sound analog output), you're going to hear the awfulness as it is. Heck on a transparent system I can even hear the difference in crappy digital resampling like a built in PC soundcard even on the digital output (why I'm a big stickler for no resampling and lossless digital bitstreaming - less signal sodomy the better) But don't worry, you don't necessarily need the highest end electronics to get the benefit of the nicer speakers - other than room, speakers seem to add the most distortion to the signal and are the hardest thing to get right compared to electronics which has come a long way over the years on the lower end. A lot of us on here are using Denons and Yamahas with the 800 series, nothing overly fancy, and getting great results. Just something decent and competent (Sony DG series need not apply, hehe) will get the job done (a separate powerful dedicated amp with plenty of current puts the final icing on the cake).

And lastly....the biggest downfall of having a nice high end and transparent speaker... is being at the mercy of the actual recording quality. Once the setup is all optimized this is going to be your main brick wall in the end result. Don't expect to be in amazement with a pair of 800 series with most of Ozzy Osbourne's recordings, heh. In fact, it will probably make you walk away in major disappointment and confusion over the hype of the higher end speakers. But on the other hand, with any competent recording you'll be taken to a much higher level than you've experienced before as with the high end speakers the brick wall in performance is shifted away from the speakers and onto the recording (i.e. most all recordings will sound of the same level on lesser speakers since the lesser speakers will be where you're brick-walled at, but the higher up you go shows how dramatic the differences in recordings actually are since the speakers or more open and filtering back much less of the signal).

So if you don't want to work with setup, possibly jumping through hoops depending on the room, and don't like the idea of spending big bucks just to be still limited by recording quality no matter how well the setup is, don't get the high end ones, lol. Hell, I can notice dramatic differences in sound quality from Xbox game to Xbox game....some are amazing sounding and shockingly realistic, and some sound like I'm still using Radio Shack speakers when it's not the speakers fault at all, lol. :rofl:

Now as far as Klipsch to B&W is concerned, I don't have a lot of experience with Klipsch but the few times I've heard them (which I don't consider big box store listening proper demoing) they sound more unnaturally sharper on the top end with not much of a natural and full midrange. When you hear someones voice that you know on a cell phone yea you recognize it's their voice and who it is, but you can tell it's colored, unnatural, and coming from a cell phone speaker and not their actual voice as if they where standing there talking to you in person. This is where in my experience B&W has set itself apart from most all other speakers I've heard- they can maintain that naturalness and sound more like the voice is there and not coming from a speaker. But then you're back to the problem of the actual recording quality being up to snuff.... Fun stuff, huh? :rofl:

One last thing, at least on the low end models, try to get a model with the FST midrange. You know how on a nice calibrated high definition widescreen how the IMAX scenes in the Dark Night are much more open and detailed looking? Almost like looking through a window into reality? That's how the FST mids are to midrange openness... Get the FST midded B&Ws if you can. :T

That's a very good summary emig5m.

Nigel.