802D and room size

[bigchief]

First off let me say hello to eveyone! I am new to the website and to the audio world or better yet the Hi-Fi world. Nevertheless I have been stalking the idea of a serious upgrade in sterer equipment. So my first move I have opted for some 802D (2004-2009models) as they are in my opinion a work of art, so sexy, with a Classe CL 5200 amp and keeping my velody DD-12. The concern is I am working with a(n) 18L X13W theater room with 100in move screeen and all the Klispch horn/tower speakers I can handle with a Denon 4306, which are all concealed in the walls or ceiling due to room design. The problem is I know flushing the 802 in the wall would kill the sound greatly, plus the are to sexy to be hidden. My concern is placing the Speaker in the corner diagonally with front of the speaker only about 2 ft from the edge of the first set of move chairs at an angle and the back edge of the speaker only about 5 inches from the wall on both sides :E . My question is how much sound quality will I loose with the speakers that close to the wall? As this is my only options, if someone has some helpful advice I'd be glad to post a picture for clarification. I know the 803 are a smaller option but I love the 800 series look and of course sound.

Thanks in advance

i

[bigchief]

:Z :Z WOW anybody home! No 802D owners out there!

[wettou]

:Z :Z WOW anybody home! No 802D owners out there!

Yes, I will get back to you

[Hammie]

Do you have any pics of your current room?

You may need some wall treatments to calm the bass with speakers that close to a wall/corner. There are many options for room treatments. They range from, IMO, ugly gray egg carton panels to smooth art-like panels.

If I ever do panels, the only WAF panels would have to be floor to ceiling column-like panels.

[bigchief]

Do you have any pics of your current room?

You may need some wall treatments to calm the bass with speakers that close to a wall/corner. There are many options for room treatments. They range from, IMO, ugly gray egg carton panels to smooth art-like panels.

If I ever do panels, the only WAF panels would have to be floor to ceiling column-like panels.

I will post a few pictures tonight, I am at work now!

[htsteve]

bigchief,

Welcome to the forum! :T

I have an 11 X 16 room in my basement with 802D's, HTM2D and 804S's (and a 100" screen). My room only had some minimal acoustic treatments at first. The sound was quite excellent. I've since treated is much more and the sound has gotten much better.

Given the size of my room, I understand the speakers being close to things concept. My right speaker is only a couple of feet away from the sub.

I agree that putting the 802D's in an enclosed area would not be a good idea. Even though they would be tight in a corner, that would be much better that in an enclosed area. Maybe the answer is part way out of the enclosed area. Neither solution is ideal, you'll need to figure out the one that does the least damage.

A picture would be helpful.

I'm quite concerned about powering the 802D's. You mention a Denon 4306 doing the driving. The 802D's are very power hungry. A receiver is not the best choice for them. Are you considering an external amp? Preferably a fairly powerful stereo amp?


Hope this helps.

[WelshOne]

HTSteve, do you have any pictures of your set up please, from various angles?

I have to squeeze my lot into a 4x2.8m room, and I need some inspiration!

Thanks!

David

[bigchief]

bigchief,

Welcome to the forum! :T

I have an 11 X 16 room in my basement with 802D's, HTM2D and 804S's (and a 100" screen). My room only had some minimal acoustic treatments at first. The sound was quite excellent. I've since treated is much more and it has gotten much better.

Given the size of my room, I understand the speakers being close to things. My right speaker is only a couple of feet away from the sub.

I agree that putting the 802D's in an enclosed area would not be a good idea. Even though they would be tight in a corner, that would be much better that in an enclosed area. Maybe the answer is part way out of the enclosed area. Neither solution is ideal, you'll need to figure out the one that does the least damage.

A picture would be helpful.

I'm quite concerned about powering the 802D's. You mention a Denon 4306 doing the driving. The 802D's are very power hungry. A receiver is not the best choice for them. Are you considering an external amp? Preferably a fairly powerful stereo amp?


Hope this helps.

Thanks for the input. I will not be using the denon 4306 to power the 802D, I will be using the CA 2200 for power. I wanted a Krell amp but there are way to expensive new and i have been told to stay away from used in krill line, so casse it is, any other ideas. I will post picture tonight of current set up. Or is there a smaller Krill amp that would work with out breaking the bank and selling a kid. :lol:

[htsteve]

Thanks for the input. I will not be using the denon 4306 to power the 802D, I will be using the CA 2200 for power. I wanted a Krell amp but there are way to expensive new and i have been told to stay away from used in krill line, so casse it is, any other ideas. I will post picture tonight of current set up. Or is there a smaller Krill amp that would work with out breaking the bank and selling a kid. :lol:

The Classe CA 2200 should do quite nicely with the 802D's. I would stick with that. I'm not sure going to Krell will be a dramamtic improvement over the CA2200. I've demo'd Krell, Classe and McIntosh. All are very good performers.

[wettou]

:Z :Z WOW anybody home! No 802D owners out there!

OK I have three 802D in front and two 802N in Surround side powered by Classé CA-5200 :T

They sound great I have them three feet from the front wall and four feet from the side wall they sound best when placed well into the room. As far as power go the Classé does a super job I am looking to Bi-amp them so I can get more detail

[bigchief]

pics as promised

I will post a few pictures tonight, I am at work now! HELP!

top to pictures are or room with klipschs towers inclosed in wall and back covering

This pic is off tower sitting in cornor where a set of B and W need to go but as you can see space is big issue.

4th and 5 pic of 802D template so i can see how much space i don't have from the walls and how close to my first set of theater chairs and if 803d migth be the better way to go, even though i long for the 802d.

[Ken49r]

I know the 803 are a smaller option but I love the 800 series look and of course sound.

Have you looked at the CT8 series? Sure they don't look sexy like the furniture models but they do offer more HT options. In a dedicated room like yours that would be my choice.

BTW: Nice room!

[scanido]

i think you are better off with the 803D given the placement restrictions you have shown. The 803di will allow you to place them further from the seats which would better help with the integration of the drivers. Also the added height of the 803Di would be a plus to your rear seat viewers.

[bigchief]

Have you looked at the CT8 series? Sure they don't look sexy like the furniture models but they do offer more HT options. In a dedicated room like yours that would be my choice.

BTW: Nice room!

actually I am about 50/50 music to movies, I just wanted a dedicated home theater look but alot of time I am listening to my jazz doing home work or surfing the web in there, well that unless it football season, WHO DAT!
So thats why I want the hi-fi sound now that I have been giving the green light from the wife. :B :B
I think I will go for the 803D.

[bigchief]

i think you are better off with the 803D given the placement restrictions you have shown. The 803di will allow you to place them further from the seats which would better help with the integration of the drivers. Also the added height of the 803Di would be a plus to your rear seat viewers.

Are they even selling the 803Di yet, what price are they going for and where is a good price to buy from?

[bigchief]

Any luck owner of the 803di yet?

[htsteve]

Are they even selling the 803Di yet, what price are they going for and where is a good price to buy from?

bigchief,

I believe the 803Di are $10,000/pr. You should get a discount from that, in the 5-10% range. As for where to buy, your nearest B&W dealer will be able to help. You can look them up on their website:

http://www.bowers-wilkins.com/display.aspx?infid=1426

The 803D or 803Di was one of the options I thought of after seeing your room. It's probably the best of all the options available to you.

The room does present challenges in placement. In addition to the 803Di thought, here are some other thoughts. These are just ideas, and all have their pro's and cons. My main driver here is to figure out how to incorporate the 802Di's into the room. 802Di's are special.

1. Put the 802D's in the wall. However, maybe build a little extension out so they would not be completely inside a box.

2. Put the 802D's on the floor in the corners as the cut outs suggest. See how it works.

3. Get rid of the front set of seats. 802Di problem solved. Calibrate the system to the back seats. If you have more people than the back seat can accommodate, bring in more chairs or bean bags, etc. How often are all of the seats used?

4. In the 4th picture, you place one of the Klipsch on the small landing area. Not a bad idea. Build out that small landing area to accomodate a set of 802D's. I'm just not sure if there would be anything behind it that you would need to get to.

5. If possible, get rid of the area where the speakers are in the wall today. remove those 'boxes'. Unless something is back there that needs to remain hidden.

In additional to these ideas, a visit from a dealer might reveal some other ideas.


BTW, design wise, I really like the columns by the screen. Do they give off any glare when the projector is on? White in that room is a bold choice.


Hope this helps.

[bigchief]

bigchief,

I believe the 803Di are $10,000/pr. You should get a discount from that, in the 5-10% range. As for where to buy, your nearest B&W dealer will be able to help. You can look them up on their website:

http://www.bowers-wilkins.com/display.aspx?infid=1426

The 803D or 803Di was one of the options I thought of after seeing your room. It's probably the best of all the options available to you.

The room does present challenges in placement. In addition to the 803Di thought, here are some other thoughts. These are just ideas, and all have their pro's and cons. My main driver here is to figure out how to incorporate the 802Di's into the room. 802Di's are special.

1. Put the 802D's in the wall. However, maybe build a little extension out so they would not be completely inside a box.

2. Put the 802D's on the floor in the corners as the cut outs suggest. See how it works.

3. Get rid of the front set of seats. 802Di problem solved. Calibrate the system to the back seats. If you have more people than the back seat can accommodate, bring in more chairs or bean bags, etc. How often are all of the seats used?

4. In the 4th picture, you place one of the Klipsch on the small landing area. Not a bad idea. Build out that small landing area to accomodate a set of 802D's. I'm just not sure if there would be anything behind it that you would need to get to.

5. If possible, get rid of the area where the speakers are in the wall today. remove those 'boxes'. Unless something is back there that needs to remain hidden.

In additional to these ideas, a visit from a dealer might reveal some other ideas.


BTW, design wise, I really like the columns by the screen. Do they give off any glare when the projector is on? White in that room is a bold choice.


Hope this helps.

Hi, htsteve'

I really appreciate you taking the time to give some input to solutions to my 802d problem.
Well today for the first time I was able to audition the 802D vs the 803D and boy was that fun. I can honestly say the 802 are great speaker but to my suprise the 803 held there own, sure you can here the difference when going from 803 to 802 in full body, but when switching from the 802 to the 803, the 803 came in with smooth response and didn't really drop much when it came to mid base. Very impressive actually. Kind of help me make up my mind to do with the 803. What i don't want to do is try and squeeze the 802 in here and jsut can't get a good sound from them at all. I think I have a better chance with the 803, but will miss that Band W sexyness that we all have come to love. the funny things Is I can get a set of 802 right now for 10.5K man that sucks....

Steve I will be taking the boxes out the wall but that is the general design of the room. I'd have to modify the house to get that space back , the other option is to remove that counter space where the components in and put a set of 802 in front of the columns at an angle, then make it a sound stage.
But all this will require more construction to the room and I am trying to spend the money of amps and speakers so the 803s with the htm3 is looking more and more like the option. for now.

Oh yea by the way, the columns are not white actually, the are a grey mixed , and don;t give off any glare at all, in fact looks good in full movie mode.

[wettou]

...but will miss that Band W sexyness that we all have come to love. the funny things Is I can get a set of 802 right now for 10.5K man that sucks....

New 802Di for 10K go for it

[htsteve]

bigchief,

You have a good plan. 803D's and the HTM3 will certainly be a very good set-up. And mating them with excellent electronics IS the next step. The CA2200 is very good. Need to look at repacing the Denon as the processor.
Do you have a Blu Ray? The HD audio formats are awesome.

Man that is a nice price on the 802D's (I am assuming the 802D's here and not the new 802Di. Won't see a price like that on the new ones).

[bigchief]

bigchief,

You have a good plan. 803D's and the HTM3 will certainly be a very good set-up. And mating them with excellent electronics IS the next step. The CA2200 is very good. Need to look at repacing the Denon as the processor.
Do you have a Blu Ray? The HD audio formats are awesome.

Man that is a nice price on the 802D's (I am assuming the 802D's here and not the new 802Di. Won't see a price like that on the new ones).

Yes the 10.5K is for a used set of 802d not the 802di, I wish. :B
Yes I have my eys on the CA 2200 or even the 5200 but after listening to a bryson SST 4 yesterday that they used to drive the 803 and 802, it to was impressive. The dealer said he's consider giving me a great price on the used bryson they were using for the audition, if I buy the 803.
I have to call back tomorrow, to see how much he will sale the 803D and htm3 (which was at the owners house) and the bryston amp. If the price is right I be the proud owner of my first hi end speakers. If he tries to charge me anyting close to 8-9k for the 803d, I may have to pass even though he has the black i need to keep my color scheme going. It would be hard to pay that much when i can pay 1.5k more for the 802. Not to mention i have been seeing 803d going for about 5-6k recently. What do you think?
Also the dealer mentioned maybe sound proofing the cornor where the speakers would go and saying that it would help the with the sound that i ma loose due to the lact of space, ever heard of this before??
As for the denon, I spent some time on the Classe website and I was thinking of getting the SSP 600. I have been seeing a few on audiogon for half the price.
I do have a blu ray but its just a samsung cost about 300 dollars nothing fancy. It's due for an upgrade also.

[htsteve]

bigchief,

For dealer demo's, I would expect about 20%, maybe 25% off list price. So I would expect 803D's to be in the low $7k range. Prices for used gear from end users is typically less than dealer demo pricing. $5-6k would not be unususal (with shipping typically extra).

Good news on the amp choices. Any you listed will be quite nice.
And an SSP-600 would be a SERIOUS upgrade over the denon. If you do get something like the SSP-600 and the CA2200, you'll need an amp for the center and surrounds. The CA5200 might be the best option overall.

As to 'sound proofing' the corner, your dealer is likely referring to some bass traps to help the integration of the mains into the room. I have bass traps behind my 802D's. They work quite well. Definitely something to consider.

If the pre-amp you get does not have the HD audio decoding, the BR player you get will need to have this. You can port over the signal via analog. This is what I do today.


Hope this helps.

[wettou]

Yes the 10.5K is for a used set of 802d not the 802di, I wish. :B ....I spent some time on the Classe website and I was thinking of getting the SSP 600. I have been seeing a few on audiogon for half the price.
I do have a blu ray but its just a samsung cost about 300 dollars nothing fancy. It's due for an upgrade also.

Get an Oppo BDp-83SE if you do analogue

[bigchief]

Get an Oppo BDp-83SE if you do analogue

Got it!
I will start the research on this right after I get me some speakers. I thought I would have me my speakers by today a pair for 803D and the htmd2 but i am starting to feel like the store is giving me the run around. I was suppose to be waiting on the manager for the bottom dollar for the equipment on the floor, but they have not come through with a figure. Maybe I seemed to eager in wanting the set. I guess I'll look else where,.

[boarder1995]

802D vs. 803D - I was in a similar boat when deciding. I was way over my original budget for speakers with the diamond line anyways and my wife said just do the 802D if they'll make me happy. Well, they look great, but are a fair bit bigger, so I stuck with the 803D and while they're a bit bigger than the 804S footprint, they got me the diamond tweeter and are easier to place in a room of your (and my) size than the 802D. Hopefully the dealer can hook you up with a great deal on the floor models.

[bigchief]

802D vs. 803D - I was in a similar boat when deciding. I was way over my original budget for speakers with the diamond line anyways and my wife said just do the 802D if they'll make me happy. Well, they look great, but are a fair bit bigger, so I stuck with the 803D and while they're a bit bigger than the 804S footprint, they got me the diamond tweeter and are easier to place in a room of your (and my) size than the 802D. Hopefully the dealer can hook you up with a great deal on the floor models.

Wow thanks for sharing your story, I have made up my mind to get a pair of the 803D also, but trying to find a used pair in the black is posing to be a problem. The dealer has the black but has never gotten back with me on a price. Maybe i seemed to eager at the time. I can say I am not happy with the response of the store, and will save my pennies and look else where. :evil: for the black 803D

[AV-OCD]

BigChief -

First, I wholeheartedly understand your enthusiasm for wanting to upgrade your speakers, but please forgive my directness when I say that your number one priority should be redesigning the front stage of your room to accommodate the new speakers. Put the purchase of new amps or anything else on the back burner until you can make the proper space for the new front speakers.

Your goal should be to make it so that the speakers are as far from the side walls as you can get them (no less than 2 feet if possible), and that they are at least 2 to 3 feet out from the wall behind them. Placing any tower speaker in a corner is going to A) cause bass and lower midrange problems and B) destroy imaging. I’m also familiar with the “voicing” of the 803D, and they already have pronounced lower mid / bass, which will only compound the problem with placement of that model in your room with the proposed corner placement.

Of course it doesn’t hurt to buy the speakers now and try them in the corners, but just be prepared to have to do some work to the room to get them to sound like they did in the store.
Just trying to save you some frustration and heartache. Proper set-up is just as important as good gear, sometimes more.

[bigchief]

BigChief -

First, I wholeheartedly understand your enthusiasm for wanting to upgrade your speakers, but please forgive my directness when I say that your number one priority should be redesigning the front stage of your room to accommodate the new speakers. Put the purchase of new amps or anything else on the back burner until you can make the proper space for the new front speakers.

Your goal should be to make it so that the speakers are as far from the side walls as you can get them (no less than 2 feet if possible), and that they are at least 2 to 3 feet out from the wall behind them. Placing any tower speaker in a corner is going to A) cause bass and lower midrange problems and B) destroy imaging. I’m also familiar with the “voicing” of the 803D, and they already have pronounced lower mid / bass, which will only compound the problem with placement of that model in your room with the proposed corner placement.

Of course it doesn’t hurt to buy the speakers now and try them in the corners, but just be prepared to have to do some work to the room to get them to sound like they did in the store.
Just trying to save you some frustration and heartache. Proper set-up is just as important as good gear, sometimes more.

Actually AV-OCD
I can appreciate the honest opinion, I have consider modifying the room first, but it gonikng to require several thousand of dollars to change the room around, and that will lessen my liquid cash to buy speaker and equipment that I have been wanting since 1997, but on Navy E-4 pay was not going to happen. Now 15 years later and E-8 payment it seems so right. I figure If I purschased the speaker first at least i'll have somewhat of a better sound, but maybe not!
My problem is my room is just not large enogh to keep it a theater room, and a sound room. I need another house.. :B :B DAMN economy..

[AV-OCD]

Actually AV-OCD
I can appreciate the honest opinion, I have consider modifying the room first, but it gonikng to require several thousand of dollars to change the room around, and that will lessen my liquid cash to buy speaker and equipment that I have been wanting since 1997, but on Navy E-4 pay was not going to happen. Now 15 years later and E-8 payment it seems so right. I figure If I purschased the speaker first at least i'll have somewhat of a better sound, but maybe not!
My problem is my room is just not large enogh to keep it a theater room, and a sound room. I need another house.. :B :B DAMN economy..

I feel your pain. And trust me, I don't want to squash your dream of owning some really nice speakers, but the truth is that the room is as much a part of the system as the speakers. Unfortunately, corner placement is right up there with the least desirable for good sound, second to in-wall / in a corner. Just as one shouldn’t take a high-end video projector, aim it at an exposed brick wall and expect a great picture, nor should one expect great sound from high-end speakers with compromised placement.

I hope that you can find a cost effective way to modify the room, like removing the front row of seats as others have suggested, the only goal here is to give the speakers some space to breath. It don’t have to be pretty, at least not right away.

[doviiman]

found my old thread

[PewterTA]

There's a dealer in Cleveland selling their 802Ds (not the new diamonds) for $8400 for the pair if you're interested, they've only had them for about 5 months, brand spanking new, not even an estimated 20 hours on them (they bought them RIGHT before the 802 Diamonds were released and are now stuck with them. They are in Rosenut, if anyone is interested I'll let you know where so you can go talk to the guy there about listening/seeing them and/or purchasing them.

[doviiman]

There's a dealer in Cleveland selling their 802Ds (not the new diamonds) for $8400 for the pair if you're interested, they've only had them for about 5 months, brand spanking new, not even an estimated 20 hours on them (they bought them RIGHT before the 802 Diamonds were released and are now stuck with them. They are in Rosenut, if anyone is interested I'll let you know where so you can go talk to the guy there about listening/seeing them and/or purchasing them.

HI, and thanks for the information. I have come to the conclusing that 802 are just to big for my room/application. I have considered the 804Di for ease of placement or the 803D if I can find a used set in black.