Sub selection to match 804s

[stuofsci02]

Hi All,

I need some help with this one. I currently have a set of 804s that are used 70% for stereo music 30% for HT. For center I have HTM61 which I plan to change to HTM3S if I can find one, and for rears I have a set of Tannoy F1 bookshelfs. I have never had a sub with any of my speakers thus far, but I feel that I would like to add something in this respect.

Due to the fact that I listen to stereo music for the most part I have been thinking about doing stereo subs. As a result I am thinking the best method for connection is via hi-level inputs from the amplifier speaker terminals. That said, for movies I also would want the subs to get the LFE from the line level output on my NAD reciever which I use as a pre-amp for the mains and amp for the center and rears of my 5.0 setup.

Ideally I would like the subs to be able to manage both inputs. Meaning take the line level LFE input from the reciever and add that to the hi-level inputs from the amp so that it can flesh out the bottom end of the 804s and play the LFE. During stereo music it would only be getting the hi-level inputs to flesh out the 804s bottom end.

Additionally I don't have a ton of space, so I need to keep max footprint at less the 24" x 24". Height isn't much of an issue.

Finally I would prefer to keep cost at $1000 US or less per sub.

Is the setup I have proposed feasible? If so what sub would be a good fit keeping in mind my preference for stereo music.

I am putting this in the B&W forum even though I feel that the subs that fit this bill are not B&W, however, I want some opinions from other B&W owners who may have this setup already, and at least know the sound of the speakers I have.

Thanks,

Stuart

[duketbrd88]

Hi, i have the velodyne spl800r 8"sub with my 804s and it sounds great. There are many options out there. if you went with something like the higher end velodyne subs you just connect the pre out from you reciever to the input on the sub and the sub has an extra output you can connect to the other sub. it is an option so you can daisy chain the subs. just an option that won't cost you a fortune. There are many subs out there, you just have to look around and see what you like.
http://www.crutchfield.com/g_12300/Powered-Subwoofers.html?tp=187&nvpair=FFBrand|Velodyne
Here is a link to one option. These subs kick a lot of punch. I would love to have a JL audio sub, but they cost a fortune.

[stuofsci02]

Hi, i have the velodyne spl800r 8"sub with my 804s and it sounds great. There are many options out there. if you went with something like the higher end velodyne subs you just connect the pre out from you reciever to the input on the sub and the sub has an extra output you can connect to the other sub. it is an option so you can daisy chain the subs. just an option that won't cost you a fortune. There are many subs out there, you just have to look around and see what you like.
http://www.crutchfield.com/g_12300/Powered-Subwoofers.html?tp=187&nvpair=FFBrand|Velodyne
Here is a link to one option. These subs kick a lot of punch. I would love to have a JL audio sub, but they cost a fortune.

Thanks for the link... I also would love the JL Fathom subs, but it is a bit too much money if I want to do stereo subs.

Is the preout connection are you referring to the sub preout? I prefer not to daisy chain the subs though as that would make it two subs playing the same information. Also this would make use of my AVR crossover which would prevent full range being sent to the speakers.

I would like to have each sub play only the lows that are going to the speaker it is next to for true stereo bass reproductions. That of course exludes the LFE channel which I would want sent to both subs when watching movies. That is why I am hoping I can find something that allows for hi-level connections from the speaker posts and LFE on the line-level connection simultaneously.

[omar7631]

I have a pair of outlaw audio lfm-ex sub-woofers and they blend in with my system very well. The bass has improved since I did the Audessy calibration on my receiver.

[dknightd]

If you set your receiver to "no sub" it might send the LFE out the the front mains.
Then you'd just need a sub with light level inputs and (perhaps filtered) ouputs. Maybe one of the SVS? They seem to be good "bang for the buck"

[duketbrd88]

You could just as easy run a Y-splitter of your avr if it only has one sub output and from that one rca in to each sub's LFE channel. i used to do that and it works great. Your avr does have a sub output correct? i am not familar with the nad. Yes i was referring to the pre outs.

[stuofsci02]

If you set your receiver to "no sub" it might send the LFE out the the front mains.
Then you'd just need a sub with light level inputs and (perhaps filtered) ouputs. Maybe one of the SVS? They seem to be good "bang for the buck"

Yeah.. I thought about doing this.. I had a look at the SVS... Looks pretty good for the cost.. I also looked at REL and it appears they recommend connecting the T series exactly how I wanted, so this is good..

The problem with most sub setups not working for me is I want to get an analog preamp with HT bypass that I can run for my stereo mode and then use the regular AVR which is fed from my OPPO blu-rays 5.1 outputs for movies. Of course the front L/R will go through the HT bypass on the preamp.

I want my speakers to run full range which typically means there will be no sub out x-over involved on the analog preamp. So this is why I want to use the speaker level inputs on the sub. Of course this will also work well in HT bypass mode assuming that I get a preamp that bypasses to the full range outputs.

In HT bypass mode I want to make use of the LFE channel from the AVR, and as one person mentioned, downmixing it into the main channels could work, but if I can make a second connection from the sub out on the AVR and daisy chain to the two subs, then that would be awesome.. Then the subs would get the low freq from the mains speakers and the LFE. Assuming the sub has different filters for the line level input and hilevel input then I could really make this work.

It looks like REL's are setup to do this according to the literature. It also looks like the B&W PV1 can do this too, but I cannot specifically see where it says this.. Also PV1 is a bit expensive.

[stuofsci02]

You could just as easy run a Y-splitter of your avr if it only has one sub output and from that one rca in to each sub's LFE channel. i used to do that and it works great. Your avr does have a sub output correct? i am not familar with the nad. Yes i was referring to the pre outs.

NAD does have a single sub output.. Doing what you mention would work fine, but then it would not be true stereo subs. I really want to blend the subs in as good as possible for stereo music, so I want to treat them as an extension to the 804s.

[stuofsci02]

I have a pair of outlaw audio lfm-ex sub-woofers and they blend in with my system very well. The bass has improved since I did the Audessy calibration on my receiver.

Thanks I will check it out...

[Mage]

I run my 804s with a Velodyne HGS-15 with the crossover set at 60hz and it tears it up for HT and stereo music. I also have an HGS-18 that I run y-split from the pre-out but the amp is kaupt right now. I have hooked them up in stereo and used the velodyne crossover instead of my receivers but I couldn't tell the difference. That's the beauty of subwoofer frequencies; you can't tell the sound origin. I recommend getting one high quality sub instead unless you are trying to tame the bass nodes in a large room.

[Aiden]

Hello Stuart!

If I may, I would suggest you go with one good sub for the time being and possibly add the second at a later date if you felt it was still needed.

REL would give you exactly what you were looking for as they allow for a line and speaker level connection through a speak-on interconnect.

My recommendation would be between HSU Research ULS-15 and a Rythmik F15. These are from internet direct companies and receive rave reviews. The Rythmik is a servo sub which needs no explanation. The HSU is a conventional sealed design that has authoritative, palpable and articulate bass and comes in a few different finishes.

[stuofsci02]

I recommend getting one high quality sub instead unless you are trying to tame the bass nodes in a large room.

I am considering this route also.. I think it is certainly the simplest way to go..

[stuofsci02]

Hello Stuart!

If I may, I would suggest you go with one good sub for the time being and possibly add the second at a later date if you felt it was still needed.

REL would give you exactly what you were looking for as they allow for a line and speaker level connection through a speak-on interconnect.

My recommendation would be between HSU Research ULS-15 and a Rythmik F15. These are from internet direct companies and receive rave reviews. The Rythmik is a servo sub which needs no explanation. The HSU is a conventional sealed design that has authoritative, palpable and articulate bass and comes in a few different finishes.

Thanks Aiden,

I had a look at both of them and they look very nice.. I really like the rosenut on the HSU as it would be a good match to my 804s.. I guess my next step is to get out off my computer and go and audition some subs and see what exactly I like.

[RedRock]

I recently demoed a Velodyne Optimum 10 that belonged to a friend. I'm running the Velodyne with a pair of the new 804 Diamonds, crossing over at ~60 hz. The sound is extremely well integrated with no indication of where the sub is physically positioned. The bass reproduction is extremely quick and accurate with no "boom." Listening to the Panzer attack scene in "Saving Private Ryan" sealed the deal. Every gun blast and ground vibration came through loud and clear - the best I've heard from my system yet. I bought the Optimum 10 and my friend is upgrading to the DD series. For me, one high-quality sub will get the job done.

[Horacio]

Hello,

Like Aiden said, REL provides the high level input with an internal crossover for stereo, plus the lo level for HT. I have a Storm III with my 804S used 100% for stereo and works very well.

Keep in mind your 804S are vented box designs, so vented box subs would have a more comparable behavior. REL subs are vented boxes, at least the ST series (ie: Studio, Stadium, Storm, Stentor). Storm sell under $1000 used, which is how I bought it.

Having said this, I suggest you think through what you are trying to achieve in this sense: RELs, and many other subs, are good for a narrow range of frequencies. For example, the Storm is good from 20 to about 55 Hz. So if you are trying to supplement your 804S bass, meaning the 804S will receive the 20 Hz signal at the same time the sub will, then the REL is fine. As you probably know, the 804S distort some at the lower frequencies, though. Then, if the plan is to crossover before the amp so the amp and 804S receive only limited bandwith (say down to 80 Hz) and the sub reproduces the rest, then the REL may or may not work. Although I haven't tried a gazillion subs, I believe this is true for most subs except the very expensive RELs (Studio, Stadium), higher end JLs and Velodynes too. Search the web for measurements of the sub you are planning to buy.

I hope this helps!

[stuofsci02]

I recently demoed a Velodyne Optimum 10 that belonged to a friend. I'm running the Velodyne with a pair of the new 804 Diamonds, crossing over at ~60 hz. The sound is extremely well integrated with no indication of where the sub is physically positioned. The bass reproduction is extremely quick and accurate with no "boom." Listening to the Panzer attack scene in "Saving Private Ryan" sealed the deal. Every gun blast and ground vibration came through loud and clear - the best I've heard from my system yet. I bought the Optimum 10 and my friend is upgrading to the DD series. For me, one high-quality sub will get the job done.

Sonds good.. How do you find it integrates for music?

[stuofsci02]

Hello,

Like Aiden said, REL provides the high level input with an internal crossover for stereo, plus the lo level for HT. I have a Storm III with my 804S used 100% for stereo and works very well.

Keep in mind your 804S are vented box designs, so vented box subs would have a more comparable behavior. REL subs are vented boxes, at least the ST series (ie: Studio, Stadium, Storm, Stentor). Storm sell under $1000 used, which is how I bought it.

Having said this, I suggest you think through what you are trying to achieve in this sense: RELs, and many other subs, are good for a narrow range of frequencies. For example, the Storm is good from 20 to about 55 Hz. So if you are trying to supplement your 804S bass, meaning the 804S will receive the 20 Hz signal at the same time the sub will, then the REL is fine. As you probably know, the 804S distort some at the lower frequencies, though. Then, if the plan is to crossover before the amp so the amp and 804S receive only limited bandwith (say down to 80 Hz) and the sub reproduces the rest, then the REL may or may not work. Although I haven't tried a gazillion subs, I believe this is true for most subs except the very expensive RELs (Studio, Stadium), higher end JLs and Velodynes too. Search the web for measurements of the sub you are planning to buy.

I hope this helps!

These are all good points.. By going speaker level I would have to contend with distortion on the lows at high volume from the 804s.. I have never been one that wanted a sub with stereo music, but I really feel this is where my systems is lacking.. And for sure for movies I need that punch..

[Horacio]

FWIW in the next couple of weeks I plan to get a rather cheap external crossover and try biamping my 804S with tubes for the mid/trebble, SS for 80 - midrange, and feed only the Storm with up to 80 or so Hz and see if I like it.

[Hammie]

I used a 12" SVS sub with my 804S's for both music and HT when I first purchased my B&W's. However, now I feel the music sounds much better as pure 2-channel without an external sub. My room is about 11x15ft. I used the sub for about 2 months with my 804S's. I moved from a small bookshelf set up to the 804S's so I think that is why I had the sub active at first.

Now, my SVS is dedicated to HT use only.

[John22614]

I pretty much did the same thing as Hammie......took the sub virtually out of the mix for music by setting the small crossover at 40hz. I like getting the stereo bass fromo the mains for music and was quite impressed with the performance of the 804's in that area, among others. I also have a bit of a bass null coming from my sub and limited options regarding placement and volume. So much depends on your room......but thankfully I am very impressed with the bass performance of the 804's.

[Randell]

I find that the sub is imperative with 2 channel music! My room is a bit larger, 14x20, but my SVS provides the foundation of the music with my 683s.
However, I've always been used to large speakers. Prior to 683s I was running fronts with 15" woofers. I like to feel the impact of the drums

I have to chime in on the stereo subs part. 2 subs can be useful to even out the bass response in a room, but you are not likely to get any stereo imaging from your subs.
With most people's crossovers, directionality is moot.

Therefore, allowing the AVR to redirect everything below a crossover out to the sub(s) in mono is perfectly fine.

I even experimented with the sub in the front of the room versus behind the couch. I actually prefer it behind the couch for these reasons:
- sub sound origin is basically undetectable.
- for 2 channel music, 683s are unencumbered by the sub output.
- for music and movies, you can feel the rumble like nothing else when behind the couch. Awesome. Just not the same when positioned in the front.
- Because of closer proximity to the sub, you don't have to run it as hot to get the desired output.

Something to think about.

[KahunaCanuck]

I use a Rel 305 with my 805s in my 2.1 channel system and feel it is a great combination, very musical, blends really well with the 805s, and doesn't over emphasis the bass at all. Reasonable on Agon...

[RedRock]

Sounds good.. How do you find it integrates for music?

I spent a good bit of time yesterday experimenting with various sub configurations. Working with a sound level meter and the speaker level menu, I was able to match the Optimum-10 perfectly with the 804s in 2-channel stereo. My stereo configuration is now set to left/right + sub with crossover at 60hz. Like some others, I previously ran only my mains in 2-channel stereo. When everything fell into place, it turns out I really like the extra low-end punch for music too. I'm sure the new Velodyne plays a key role as the clarity is much better than lower-end subs I've run in the past.

[SPACEMANRICK]

I have a fairly large room 12' x 24' with 15' ceilings and I found my 2 channel sound with my 804's improved greatly when I added in even a lower end B&W ASW CM subwoofer.

I quite often found the sound a little thin before the subwoofer and now it is much richer,warm, and fuller but still with the great clarity and highs of the 804's. I have the setting for the subwoofer quite low and at 60hz so it is not overbearing but the little extra depth of the subwoofer goes a long way to improving my 804's sound.

[stuofsci02]

Thanks Guys,

Sorry have been out all week.. I appreciate the responses.. Judging by all the responses I am going to have to try some different things and see what I like..

Stu

[emig5m]

I went with a Sunfire Signature EQ. My requirements was small form factor but yet could keep up volume wise with the mains and do some real subsonic bass. For the $950 that I paid I don't think my Sunfire can be beat in this regard. It was much more painful to dial in and setup than my Velodyne MiniVee which was just about plug and play, and although it has more features like auto eq, it's not as refined and polished IMO (pops when powered up/down and develops a very slight hum after being powered on a while for example), but it met my main two requirements and I have it integrated pretty good now. Once I move my system into the main living room I plan on getting another one of the same exact model.

Go Sunfire if you want a lot of bang for the buck in a small form factor with some nice features such as auto room EQ. Stay away if you're looking for the utmost refinement (pops when powered up, develops a slight hum after being powered on after a while which really is barely noticeable in a perfectly quiet room late at night with no signal being fed). My MiniVee just couldn't keep up volume wise and didn't really do subsonic bass.... (remember small form factor was one of my requirements)

Don't listen to me, I really don't have much experience with a lot of different subs, heh.

[Relentless]

Did you say your budget was 10000, because the Genelec 7073A would be great for music.
Any sealed 12" sub of your liking would probably do the trick for music.

[Aiden]

I went with a Sunfire Signature EQ. My requirements was small form factor but yet could keep up volume wise with the mains and do some real subsonic bass. For the $950 that I paid I don't think my Sunfire can be beat in this regard. It was much more painful to dial in and setup than my Velodyne MiniVee which was just about plug and play, and although it has more features like auto eq, it's not as refined and polished IMO (pops when powered up/down and develops a very slight hum after being powered on a while for example), but it met my main two requirements and I have it integrated pretty good now. Once I move my system into the main living room I plan on getting another one of the same exact model.

Go Sunfire if you want a lot of bang for the buck in a small form factor with some nice features such as auto room EQ. Stay away if you're looking for the utmost refinement (pops when powered up, develops a slight hum after being powered on after a while which really is barely noticeable in a perfectly quiet room late at night with no signal being fed). My MiniVee just couldn't keep up volume wise and didn't really do subsonic bass.... (remember small form factor was one of my requirements)

Don't listen to me, I really don't have much experience with a lot of different subs, heh.

The Sunfires are great subs considering their small size, but they do not do subsonic bass. They have useable output to about 30hz and begin to introduce a LOT of distortion below that point.

[Mage]

Do yourself a favor and pick up one of the Velodyne DD-15's on audiogon. You will never look back. Do it for the same reason that you went with the 804s. You can thank me later.

[wettou]

Finally I would prefer to keep cost at $1000 US or less per sub.

JL Audio Fathom F110 give it a try you will see the difference a bit higher than your budget but you never know