803s or 804s?

[probeski]

My room is quite large at 11.8 feet high X 41 feet long X 19 feet wide.
I am considering either 803s or 804s. I am concerned that large floorstanders with larger woofers are be harder to position to avoid muddy bass, I have basically zero positioning room. I will have a low entertainment unit in the middle (1.8m wide) of the fronts with the centre on top; there is a diagonal refelection in the form of a wooden bar to about 2ft to the right of the front right speaker and the speakers have a wall behind them. I wonder what effect the larger cabinet has on the speakers as well as the bigger drivers and if plugging the rear ports will help.
Ideally i'd like to audition both in my room but i havn't spoken to the dealer yet.

I will be getting a sub either a 15" or a 12" Velodyne DD or B&W (probably Velodyne). I'm not sure if the 15" will mean more or less boominess compared to the 12" and whether the 15" will integrate as well as a 12"; I prefer mostly punchy tight bass. Will a sub integrate better with the 804's or the 803's; what XO are people using for their subs with B&W 804s/803's?

Thanks

[Maverick71]

Not to ruin your budget, but.... can't you go up to 803D's? I had a pair of 804S and 803D at my home for about 2 weeks and found the 803D's to be much better than the 804S (although I did enjoy the 804S). Never heard the 803S myself but I remember to read some forum members prefering the 803S overall balance.

Mav

[probeski]

Can't do the 803D due to aesthetics... 2 big black woofers looks better than three in our living room. I am also concerned that the 803s has a different crossover frequency at 250Hz instead of 350Hz that most of the others have (this includes the matching centre HTM2) - it is strange and I wonder whether it's noticeable having a centre speaker with a crossover of 350 Hz and fronts at 250 Hz!! Can anyone explain why this is the case and whether it is a problem?

[Pedro]

Never heard the 803S myself but I remember to read some forum members prefering the 803S overall balance.

Same here.. But The 803D is more balanced than 803S, it is not bright or hash. The 803S still be some harsh and bright because it has aluminium dome tweeter and its crossover is the same of other non-diamond

[beden1]

I have my 803Ds in a large room such as yours, but with a higher ceiling. I was originally concerned about the height of the 803D from an appearance aspect, until I got them positioned in the room. Now I feel they look much better than the 703s they replaced as the front speakers. They really don't look out of place proportionately.

Your ceilings are above average in height, and should work as well. Just a thought to consider.

[probeski]

Sorry an older 800 series brochure says the 803s is crossed over at 250Hz (honestly) but the website says otherwise... might be a misprint.
I will be getting either the 803s or 804s - i don't like the look of three large bass drivers, two looks acceptable in our room. If B&W made a diamond version of the 803/804 design i would probably get that.
Since my speaker will have the metal dome tweeter (no diamonds) I am wondering if Class'e Ca-5200 will be too bright and am thinking maybe the McIntosh MC207 might be a better match. I've read some threads on B&Ws verging on the bright side but i'm not so sure to what extent the non-diamond 800 series are. Perhaps my larger room with high ceilings is a good thing as the sound has to travel further before being reflected? I'm not sure if i'll need more powerful amps than this considering my speakers and room size. With the MC207 I can bi-amp extra channels as my system will be 5.1. I wonder if the MC207 is in the same league as the Ca-5200; I havn't read all that much about this particular amp and whether it's as good as McIntosh's other amps (it is definitely more convenient and cost effective for me to buy a multichannel amp). Problem is that here in Sydney, Australia I doubt i'll get the chance to audition both Class'e and McIntosh with these speakers nor in my room, I will try but i doubt it as they aren't as available as they are in the US.
I suppose the 1/2 " difference between the 803s and Htm3 Rohacel cone bass shouldn't be too noticeable right? Still not sure whether the 803s or 804s will be better in my room (having no play for positioning); I will try to audition in the not too distant future. Any advise is welcome.

[Zoran]

[QUOTE=probeski]
I will be getting either the 803s or 804s - i don't like the look of three large bass drivers, two looks acceptable in our room. If B&W made a diamond version of the 803/804 design i would probably get that.
QUOTE]

??????

I can't recall any similar aesthetic criterion seen latest years on any audio forum (!?). Two drivers acceptable, three not...? Very, very peculiar... You obviously intend listening without grills, BTW.

I own 803S more than two years - significantly better bass response than 804S (compared at dealer demo-room), I think much more relaxed sound, overall. Of course, 803D is large step above, but B&W unfortunately had not proper feeling that three drivers might be harmful aestheticaly...

[probeski]

I just reckon the that two bass drivers look tidy compared to having three of them staring at you in a living room. In my room i think the black grilles covering the speaker would look even uglier... just my opinion. If it was a dedicated home theatre room than the three drivers probably wouldn't concern me much.

[Pookie007]

I compared the 804S, 803S, and 803D before deciding on the 803S. I thought there was a significant gain from the 804s to the 803S. I especially noticed it in the bass response. The 803S seem to give a more complete sound in my room. I did hear a difference between the 803S and 803D, but I classified it as a difference not an improvement. Most people I talked to told me the tweeter gave a much smoother, less fatiguing sound. I'm still not sure I know what that means, but the $2500 price difference was crystal clear. I thought I would be better off overall using the savings to put towards other component upgrades. I think the only way you will know for sure is to listen to the different models and decide what is best for you. Most dealers will let you set up an audition in your home if they think you are serious about making the purchase.

[akhter]

I just reckon the that two bass drivers look tidy compared to having three of them staring at you in a living room. In my room i think the black grilles covering the speaker would look even uglier... just my opinion. If it was a dedicated home theatre room than the three drivers probably wouldn't concern me much.

why not the 802D than ?

[Maverick71]

why not the 802D than ?

My thoughts exactly

Mav

[style]

803 B&W

Hallo,

Personaly I have a 803S.
I use a 805s for rear and htm3s center. is a perfect match.
With a 804s the htm4s is too not bad but not at the level from htm3s..

when I have upgrade my ssystem from serie 7 (703 front - htm7 center - 704rear) at first my Idea was 803s front and a 804srear but I have heart the 805s and is a superb speakers, for rear and for mains too!

If do you will upgrade your system go with a 803S with a htm3s center or
go direct to 802d and htm2d center...
No compromise....

Greetings from Switzerland Omar

[Minardi2]

The 803s

If your budget allows get the 803S. I had 703s as a stop gap before a planned upgrade to the 804S. However I came across a used-for-one-day pair of 803S and went for them. My B&W dealer said there isn't much difference btw 703 and 804S, and I essentially got the 803S for about $600 more than a new pair of 804S. I've been happy quite happy with them.

[probeski]

Maybe, I will go for the 803D's, perhaps the three woofers don't look too bad afterall. I'm still concerned that I have very little positioning room. I've read posts about large floorstanders being harder to position to get the sound right; are they referring to toe in or what exactly? I just don't want to get them and realize that the bass is boomy because I don't have room to reposition them properly.
I am thinking of getting cardas golden reference cables (they may help tame some of the zinginess) and the Class'e CA5200.

[beden1]

I don't find the bass response of the 803D to be "boomy" at all. If anything, it is tight and responsive. The 802D would be more of an issue for you than is the 803D. I also didn't have a hard time positioning them in the room. You need some space behind any of the B&W speakers IMO, and just play with the toe-in to get your best soundstage.

I'm sure you will be happy with them.

[Pedro]

Hello Beden1,

Ive read some old posts from you and found you deslike the 803D at the first time. What did you do to stay with them ?

[beden1]

Hello Beden1,

Ive read some old posts from you and found you deslike the 803D at the first time. What did you do to stay with them ?

I learned from RebelMan and others that my upstream electronics were the issue, more than the 803Ds. I added a Classe CP-500 pre-amp and a Sony SCD-XA9000ES SACD player for two channel listening, and heard the true capability of the 803Ds. Previously, I was using a Pioneer Elite receiver as my primary pre-amp for both music and HT.

I am now very happy with them, as they now sound like what my first impressions of them were, when I auditioned them extensively at the dealer prior to purchasing.

IMO, B&W speakers are extremely detailed, and intolerant of any weak links in the system. This is their strength as well as the frustration listeners experience when trying to set up their balanced systems using B&W speakers. But, when one is able to get it right, it is well worth the effort in the end.

[Pedro]

Nice point of view Beden

Well I am a new owner of BW 803D, and i´ve found exactly what you thought about them. The more refined BW (diamond series) demands a great electronic at the same level. I am searching for an eletronic to match with them. One of the sugests i am trying is McIntosh MC501 and C2200 with Ayre C5XE player, or the Krell Combo: KCT pré+FPB400CX power and Evolution 505 Player.

I´ve also had the XA9000ES but i think they are not at the level of the 803D

[beden1]

Nice point of view Beden

Well I am a new owner of BW 803D, and i´ve found exactly what you thought about them. The more refined BW (diamond series) demands a great electronic at the same level. I am searching for an eletronic to match with them. One of the sugests i am trying is McIntosh MC501 and C2200 with Ayre C5XE player, or the Krell Combo: KCT pré+FPB400CX power and Evolution 505 Player.

I´ve also had the XA9000ES but i think they are not at the level of the 803D

Pedro, I am finding the Sony XA9000ES player to be exceptional, and am enjoying it much more, the more I listen. It may be that it just matches very well with my Classe gear?

Regarding the Krell electronics as a match with your 803Ds, you may want to really spend some time auditioning. I originally used a Krell CAV250a as my amp, and found it to be a poor match with the 703s I was using as my main speakers at the time.

[Pedro]

Yeah. I´ve listened the 803D lest weekend with Krell KHRC pré and FPB 400CX and like the result. But i found the Krells a little detailed, they reveals medium or bad records. So, i think another good choice to me is McIntosh, people says they are wonderful, will try to listen them.

[beden1]

Yeah. I´ve listened the 803D lest weekend with Krell KHRC pré and FPB 400CX and like the result. But i found the Krells a little detailed, they reveals medium or bad records. So, i think another good choice to me is McIntosh, people says they are wonderful, will try to listen them.

Pedro, I think the Krell electronics are exceptional, but to me, they are too revealing (precise and cold) when matched with the unforgiving B&W speakers IMO. Additionally, there seem to be so many poor recordings out there now (with the re-recorded CDs and the MP3 files, etc.) that for me, the warmer/softer sound that Classe produces, helps me to listen to/stomach more recordings.

[Pedro]

ok Beden. Also i have the option to listen the Classe CAM400 and CP700

Do you think Classes have great bass as Krell, precise, strong and/or tight??

About the Krells I think the same, they are unforgiven with some or a lot records

[beden1]

ok Beden. Also i have the option to listen the Classe CAM400 and CP700

Do you think Classes have great bass as Krell, precise, strong and/or tight??

About the Krells I think the same, they are unforgiven with some or a lot records

Pedro, I think the Krell beats just about anybody in the bass response category. But, you have to listen to the entire sound spectrum from your 803Ds. The Krells are exciting to listen to for a short period of time, before I got fatigued and felt beat-up by the experience.

My Classe gear does produce a solid/tight and responsive bass, but the mids and highs are also sweet and airy smooth, and can be listened to without fatigue.

To me at least, the overall listening experience is very rewarding with the Classe gear.

[Pedro]

Ok Thanks, i will give an audition with the CAM400+CP700.

When i listened the Krell with 803D i´ve felt midranges a little agressive with some recordings that werent good. So, for me, the top end and the midrange is important to be smooth. The Diamond serie still have this above the other aluminium series, wich ARE bright or Harsh, but with a detailed amp (in this case Krell) even with other speakers the defects will appear.

[Edgeyboy]

Ok Thanks, i will give an audition with the CAM400+CP700.

When i listened the Krell with 803D i´ve felt midranges a little agressive with some recordings that werent good. So, for me, the top end and the midrange is important to be smooth. The Diamond serie still have this above the other aluminium series, wich ARE bright or Harsh, but with a detailed amp (in this case Krell) even with other speakers the defects will appear.

Are you saying you think the Diamond models are harsher / brighter than the "S" models or less harsh/bright ?

[Pedro]

NOO!!

I said the Diamond series are smooth at top end, and midrange like the Dynaudios

And The 800 Alumunium or the other series Bright and sometime Harsh with usual crossover

[Zoran]

Krell FPB should be better than Classe amps in bass area, but not so certain in other aspects... Don't forget that the B&W 800 Series has been voiced using Classe gear, particularly CA-M400 monoblocs.

Difficult point to decide, indeed. Krell FPB remains a holly grail for most of us. I am still mesmerised hearing that name...

Pedro, whatever you buy, you're happy man.

[Pedro]

excuse me Zoran, but what did you mean saying "BW 800 series has been voiced using Classe Gear"?

[Zoran]

excuse me Zoran, but what did you mean saying "BW 800 series has been voiced using Classe Gear"?

That means that during lab processes such as finalizing the finest nuances of tonal balance, crossover's fine tuning, driver positioning, internal bracing design etc, the prototype loudspeaker is usually wired to some particular (not randomly employed, of course!) amplification, in order to monitor sonic effects...

Consequently, the speaker final tuning is "guided" by features of that amplification.

Thus, this particular loudspeaker, in listener's room, may achieve its best exactly with this particular amplification...

Since B&W has adopted Classe as "domestic" breed of amplification recently prior designing the new 800 Series, it's natural that Classe was extensively utilised throughout above-described formating-process of Series 800's...

OK, I'am not familiarized with these processes in technological terms, besides my sometimes clumsy English, but hope I expressed myself well...

[Pedro]

Nice explanation, thanks so much !

[RebelMan]

Since B&W has adopted Classe as "domestic" breed of amplification recently prior designing the new 800 Series, it's natural that Classe was extensively utilised throughout above-described formating-process of Series 800's...

Well said Zoran. To add to that, Classe' was heavily engaged in the design and construction of the active crossover network utilized in the mighty CT 800 Series. The B&W and Classe' marriage doesn't stop at the corporate level. The companies are interwoven right down to the electrons!