805S + REL Sub or 804S?

[tboooe]

Hi, I have the 805S and was thinking about adding a REL Strata sub. The price for this combo is pretty similar to that of the 804S. So my quesiton is whether or not I should just skip the 805S + Sub combo and go directly to the 804S? Will the 804S still require a sub? Does the 805S + Sub sound as good as an 804S or an 804S + Sub?

I am getting upgraditis again....

[xk8boy]

if you read this thread http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=14718
it would appear that there are advocates for floorstanding speakers like the 804 will benefit from having a sub

[Seeme]

I had both and I used the REL Storm III. I found that the 804's still needed a sub but with that let me add, that it sounded better than the 803 IMHO. The 804's can go a lot deeper than the 805's which allows you to integrate the sub better. Depending on your room you may not be able to go beyond 80hz for your crossover settings and I think that the B&W midrange are excellent and I like to have it handle more of the male voices and other sub 80hz materials and then let the sub handle the low level stuff.

If money is a determining factor for you "Which it is with all of us to some degree " Than the 805's plus sub is fine because you will get better low end information than you will with just the 804's.

If you are able to do it, the best would be the 804's + Sub. Even if you can just get the 804's and then get the sub later.

Just my thoughts. Hope this helps.

[tboooe]

Seeme, what REL would you recommend for 805S? Is the Strata a good series? Which one?

Question about your setup:
For music, do you run in bypass mode? I really want to cross over my signal so the 805S only handles mids and highs but using bypass mode all of the signal is being sent to the speakers. From what I understand, you wire the RELS directly to the high level outputs from the amp. Ideally, I would like to cross over the signal to the fronts, and still use a sub. Is this even possible in a 2 channel setup using bypass mode?

[Seeme]

Tboooe, I would recommed the REL Storm for you system as it's able to go lower and not get boomy when pushed hard.

In regards to the setup, I had the following configuration:

The 805's speaker connections would go directly to the REL Sub and then the REL gives you a Neutrik Cable "Which by the way can be upgraded because the ones you get from REL is pretty thin, in my opion. Check out this link http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls....ubw&1125806794 " which will connect the your Sub.

I used a Theta CasaNova back then and I was able to configure each setting differently. I can a setting for DVD, CD, DVD-A and SACD and for all but the DVD setting I sent a full signal to my fronts and I used the crossover setting on the REL. On the DVD setting I did a low-pass which sent about a 60hz signal to the 805's/804's and then the rest to the sub. I had Neutrik cable setup and I have a Coax cable setup for LFE which was only used during DVD playback.

If you do not have a preamp that allows individual speaker settings like my Theta did, then you will have to either live with one or the other.

I found that by setting the crossover at 60hz in my room gave the best intergration for DVD as I was able to get the best bang not Boom.

On music I set the Rel to 53hz "only on the 804's" which was awesome because I was not able to detect where the sub was and it blended in perfectly for me.

With the 805's I have to set the REL somewhere around 66hz on the REL as it's been a while for that one.

I no longer have either has I have since moved on to Dali speakers.

Hope this helps. Happy listening.

[Seeme]

Please excuse my grammar errors as I should have re-read before I sent it. But hopefully you get the gist.

By the way, I need to add that if you are going to use the highly connections for music like I did , then you will need a good amp as you will be by-passing the internal amp in the REL. I used a Classe CA-301 back then. Please keep that in your consideration as your amp will make a huge difference in the way the REL will respond in that configuration.

[tboooe]

Seeme, thank you for the response. The one thing I dont get and am struggling to understand is this:

in stereo bypass mode, is it possible to add a sub and cross over the signal to the front? With the RELS you are still sending the full range signal to the fronts. The only other way to do what I want is to use the DSP of the receiver and not use bypass mode. In this case, I would simply use the receiver's cross over and the sub output of the receiver. But this defeats the purpose the RELS because it wants a full range amplified signal.

I think I am totally confused...

[Seeme]

Hi Tboooe,

Let me make sure I understand your question first:

When you say stereo bypass mode, do you mean bypassing any crossover settings in your preamp or receiver? By that I mean send a full signal to the Fronts, correct?

If so then it is possible to add a sub and cross over the signal to the front.

It's done by using the high-pass connection on the back of the REL's control panel.

You would use the Neutrik cable that I spoke about to go directly to the amp.

The signal goes from the source - to the Amplifer - to the Rel, the rel will do the crossover and then send the rest of the signal to the 805's. In a high level nutshell that is.

Think of it this way, when using the Neutrik cable you are essentially making the 805's and sub seen as "to your receiver" one speaker and it allows you to by-pass the crossover in the receiver. You will then use the crossover on the back of the REL at this point to crossover the signal between the REL and your 805's.

Let me know if this answered your question or if you still have question about the setup.

[tboooe]

THANK YOU! THANK YOU!!! I finally get it. This was exactly what I was looking for! From what I understand, using a normal sub there is no way to cross over the front unless of course you do not use the bypass mode (which as you correctly assumed bypasses all of the DSP within a prepro/receiver and sends the signal straight out) and use the sub output.

Since stereo is very important to me, I will use the bypass mode but was disappointed to find that in this mode I cannot use a sub as there is only a LR signal being sent from the prepro/receiver.

What is your experience with the sound quality of the REL crossover? By that I mean, does the circuitry affect the sound in any way? This is the whole reason why I want to use bypass mode. Also, I thought it was not possible to cross over an amplified signal. Arent most crossover placed in between the receiver and amp? How does REL do it?

Excuse my questions...I am new to all of this.

I truly appreciate your assistance.

[Seeme]

Glad I could be of assistance.

They are a couple of companies that allow this configuration but I have found REL to be the best. Some use an external Crossover like HSU and Paradigm as I have had all three in my time in Hi-Fi .

I have found that the REL works the best with the B&W's because of its speed, it's able to keep up and not sound boomy. The crossover is more advanced then the majority of ones used in receivers today, so no worries there.

The only problem I found with the REL & B&W combo was in Home Theater use, My HSU TN-1220 sounded better in this regard with its external crossover. I included a link for you to check out a external one http://www.hsustore.com/highendcrossover.html, paradigm has a good one as well.

If you listen mostly to music "as it seems you do" then I would definitely say that you will love the REL & B&W combo. Just don't forget about a amp. I would not recommend it if you have to use the amp in the receiver though.

[Seeme]

There are also different ways that you could approach this but it depends on the budget.

I decided to put my money into a nice preamp that has good DAC's and a good crossover so I could get better bass management as you will find that will be the biggest problem you will face. I had a Theta but now I have the Meridian. Going with this options allows you to crossover to the smallest degree and assign different speaker configuration for the different sources.
Now I own a sub that does even have a crossover.

[Ash]

hello guys,

tboooe, I have the same problem as you have. I bought the 805 to act as the main speakers in my HT setup. However, I have a bad receiver ($300 Pioneer) right now and I wanted to upgrade the receiver. Therefore, I listened to my freinds receiver, and I found myself liking the stereo "bypass mode". My freind had floor stand speakers, whereas I have bookshelves.

I knew that if I send a full signial to my speakers, they won't be able to handle the bass. I started to search for a solution, I first bought two subwoofers ASW675. My plan was to some how make each sub works as part of either the left or right speakers.

I noticed that in B&W subs there was two ways of doing this. The first was by taking a sub that would take speaker-wire "in". In this method you would connect the speaker wire coming out of the amp to your sub "speaker-wire in", then connecting another speaker-wire from the "speaker-wire out" in the sub to your speaker. After doing this you would set the cross-over frequency on the sub, letting the sub retain the low freqs and sending the rest to the speakers.

The subs I bought did not have the "speaker-wire in or out". However, it had a RCA in and a RCA out. This meant that I had to have a seperate "pre-amplifier processor" and a seperate amp. Here I would first place one of the subs next to the right main speaker and the other sub next to the left speaker.

I would then have to connect the right front-channel RCA-out from the processor to the right sub RCA-in; then connect from the RCA-out from the sub to the right-channel in the amp. Finally connect a speaker-wire from the amp to the speaker. The same thing has to be done to the left sub and speaker.

You would then have to set the processor to send full signals to the front channels. Then you have to set the crossover freqs on the sub, thus the sub will retain the lows and will send the remaining signal to the amp. The amp would amplify the remaining signal and would send the rest to the speakers. In this situation, the subs will actually give stereo sound.

I did not actually do the setup I explained. However, even if I did, I'm not sure how much would the sound be effected by letting it go from a processor to a sub (and throught the subs cross-over), from the sub to the amp and from the amp to the speaker. I mean, perhaps after routing the sound through all of this, it would not be much better than the regular stereo mode on the processor (without bypass)!

Therefore, there is a big possibility that I will not do the above because it is a big investment with unknown outcome. I mean it will probably cost less, if I just bought the 804.

You can see that it is a complicated thing especially if you like to listen to stereo in by-pass mode. I would not need to go through all this if I just bought the 804. I can't help the feeling, but sometimes I wish that I have bought the 804.

[tboooe]

ash, thanks for the detailed reply. I agree that the setup you described as pretty complex. Even if you bought the 804, you will probably need a sub. There is no getting around the fact that the 805, 804 do not have substantial bass. I will probably get the REL and hook it up like you and Seeme described, upgrade to 804s then move the 805 to the rears or into my bedroom.

[jlee]

Yeah I would go 804S with Strata III. By the time you add stands to the 805S, you might as well go 804S for a bit more.

[Mark_C.]

I use the Storm III with my N804s and the combination is great. I've said it before, I'll say it again: 804s with the Storm III outperform the N803 in my opinon. Use the neutrik connector, adjust the sub to your taste, and you're off.

[scottielee]

tboooe, at least try feeding your main amp/805S and sub the same full signal, while setting the sub to just fill in where your 805S left off. i enjoy my setup this way more than using my dd12's crossover, which is noisy (ssszzz).

i am a firm believer of less (crossovers, cables, adapters...) is more (for the speakers and subwoofers). i would make sure the benefit of adding something in the signal path is greater than the coloration of music as a result, before money is spent (kind of goes without saying ).

since you would probably want a sub for home theater anyway, i suggest getting a sub or two for now. you can always get bigger mains later and use 805S as surrounds.

best of luck,
scottie

[xk8boy]

Let me get this right, you connect our amp-out to the sub-in, then from sub-out to speakers. Sorry, but doing this are you not introducing noise/degradation to the signal path. Surely one wants the cleanest path possible, afterall, you did just spent big $$ on your amp and your speakers, why put a cheap(relative to your amp/speaker) subwoofer components into the chain.

I like seeme's setup, i would invest in a good pre-amp. If you budget does stretch, start saving.

[scottielee]

Let me get this right, you connect our amp-out to the sub-in, then from sub-out to speakers. Sorry, but doing this are you not introducing noise/degradation to the signal path. Surely one wants the cleanest path possible, afterall, you did just spent big $$ on your amp and your speakers, why put a cheap(relative to your amp/speaker) subwoofer components into the chain.

xk9boy, if your comment is for me, i would like to clarify: i am connecting rca outs of cd player to amps, and xlr outs of cd player to sub. both amps and sub receive the same original signal from source (kind of, since xlr outs usually have more gain and lower noise). no preamp is used since my cd player has volume control.