Sealed sub ideas?

[JohnS]

I'm excited. This will be my first dabs into DIY. I have read numerous threads trying to get a grasp on what is needed and who to buy from. My thoughts are similiar to the thread about a DIY beating out a servo 15. I would like the performance of a servo 15 but at a reduced cost. I need yalls input...Please.

Can this be done/ does it make sense for a single box?
-P Express 2.0 or 3.0 ready made box. The 2.0 is 17x17x17, 3.0 is 19x19x19 roughly
- ep2500 amp. This sucker looks powerful. I see most prefer this unit for value/power. Can it be put into a cabinet? I do plan to upgrade the fan. I also like the idea that it can control a second sub If I desire- I just might. Any other ideas here?
-ASC Arsenal 15 or SS RLP15 or 2 OAudio TC2 in 1 box. I saw a coment from a senior poster that 2 -12's would surely lay waste to a servo 15. Would 2 -12's fit in 1 box that I have mentioned? Would the 2500 amp work? I see some folks prefer 2 ohm vs 4 ohm drivers? Huh...What do I need? pros/cons?
- I'm thinking about a SMS-1 to help integrate. I'm assuming this is all I need to eq the sub. To be honest I lost track with the beringer unit, really not sure what I needed, how what where etc... The sms-1 gets great reviews and looks to be idiot proof. It can also control 2 subs.

The sub needs to be clean/tight/very musical. It will need to integrate with my mains- they play down to 40, but I am told by the maker to set the sub at 60. The sub needs to be high power. As you can tell it will be a big part of my upgraded system. My listening is 60/40 music, maybe 70/30 music. The kids like to watch their movies.

Thank you in advance
John Shepherd

[---k---]

I used to see Thomas recommend to first time DIYers to use the PE boxes and a 15" driver. I haven't seen him recommend it too much recently, but I'm sure it is still an outstanding solution. Check out this thread:

http://www.htguide.com/forum/showpost.php4?p=233970&postcount=15

It will probably have all the answers you need.

But, to answer a couple of your questions:

The EP2500 is a very good amp, and will power two 15" sealed subs well. It is currently the best bang for the buck. The only reason to do something else is if you want the really expensive fanless Crown K1 or K2, or if you insist on a plate amp.

The RL-p15 is very popular because it is good, tough, and very avaliable. The other drivers out now are either very new, or won't be out for a few more week or months. A lot of RL-p15 subs have been built recently, there is good reason. Come join our club!

And for a sealed sub, order the 2ohm version.

Get 1 15" driver. It will be about the same as 2- 12". The 15" will likely be cheaper and easier than 2-12".

The SMS-1 is a very nice unit and will make you happy. It comes at a step price. If you can afford it, more power to you. If you want something cheaper, then you can do the same with the BFD.

[SteveCallas]

As Jack Gilvey likes to explain, when trying to beat out a quality commercial option, such as the Paradigm Servo 15, with a DIY design, you should aim to overachieve. It won't be easy to beat their Servo design with its quality driver and high power amp with a single RLp15 and Behringer amp - their design has been optimized. Instead, go with two Rlp15s to assure you will outperform it. You'll still be well within the cost of a single Servo 15.

[JohnS]

Thanks- I have read Mr Poes thread. I hear you on the beringer eq but I do not have any of the parts to make it happen....laptop, cables, mic, charting software? Am I understanding that all I need is a box, driver, speaker post and wire to run from driver to post? I would then use an eq to integrate and use the amp for the level/volumn control? Trying to picture where the controls(what is on the back of store bought subs) come from? A senior member mentions the use of an LT circuit, do I need to use 1 or will eq take care of that? I recon I need to call manufact about power handling capabilities. The 2500 sure puts out some power, I dont want to smoke the driver. Would you rec putting the 2500 in a cabinet? The piece will be 72" wide, open in back, open on sides, and have openings in 2 front doors. These openings will have speaker fabric over them. I did notice the ASC were not available. I am trying to get input on choices for quality drivers.

[JohnS]

Roger that steve. Hmmmm. I actually have plans for a second but wanted to take things 1 step at a time before I get ahead of myself. I decided to go with 2 way mains and a high power sub vs a full range main + sub. My thoughts were to get a sub for each main to complement each other and to provide the lows for HT. Do you think I can use the 17x17x17 box for a 15 driver?

[ThomasW]

The RL-p15 is more than a match for the driver in the Servo-15. A servo sub buys you 2 things, a smaller box and somewhat less distortion. The price you pay for that is pretty $pendy. And having the full servo system operating decreases output at higher SPL.

If you want to become a hardcore DIYer, a person can actually create they're own servo sub using any DVC driver. This however isn't a job for the noob given the circuitry involved.

If you want to the driver hidden behind the grill, 2-12"s won't fit the front baffle in either PE box.

I suggest you start with a single 15" in the 3.0 PE box, then add a second driver and box if you need more output. If you buy the EP2500 or the fanless Butkicker amp, you'll have more than enough power for a second sub.

Personally I think the SMS-1 is a bit of a ripoff. For 1/2 the price you can get the Behringer DEQ2496. It will EQ 2 subs in completely different rooms if needed. It has significantly more processing power. A 61 band Real-time Analyzer. It has auto-EQ as well. (though Auto -EQ is a joke as far as I'm concerned. Since to properly EQ anything measurements should be taken from multiple postions in the room then averaged.) The other major benefit to the DEQ2496 is that it allows the user to create an LT (Linkwitz-Transform) circuit. This means the box can be equalized to sound like a larger box with a lower "Q". This can't be done with a SMS-1

[---k---]

Thomas or Jon,

A bit off topic, but: Seeing this post makes me think that the bar needs for "Senior Member" needs to be raised. I may be a "Senior Member" these days, but I'm not ready to live up to all that "Senior Member" may imply.

[JohnS]

Thanks Thomas. Can you please tell me what I need to operate the 2496? I will check out the bkicker amp. Can the amp be put into a cabinet?

[ThomasW]

Start by reading this...

https://home.comcast.net/~thomasw-2/SubwooferSetupandEQpageDEQ2496.html

Put the DEQ in your system you'll need cables that have XLR connectors on one end

The only time you'd need to add to the DEQ is if you want to use the built-in RTA (or auto-EQ or dynamic EQ). Then you need the ($50) ECM8000 mic and a ($20)mic cord. Having a ($30) boom mic stand is nice as well.

The BK amp is completely digital, so it runs cool and can go into a cab no problem.

[Jack Gilvey]

Put the DEQ in your system you'll need cables that have XLR connectors on one end

Got a link to exactly what I'm looking for? The Buttkicker amp does have a 1/4" input, I suppose I could the 1/4" output for that leg. Would a standard guitar cable do?

The only time you'd need to add to the DEQ is if you want to use the built-in RTA (or auto-EQ or dynamic EQ). Then you need the ($50) ECM8000 mic and a ($20)mic cord. Having a ($30) boom mic stand is nice as well.

Any reason to use another (better/more expensive) mic?

Love the guide so far...nice job.

[JohnS]

Thanks for the link Thomas. I have been looking for folks reviews on the B Kicker Amp.

[dyazdani]

Got a link to exactly what I'm looking for? The Buttkicker amp does have a 1/4" input, I suppose I could the 1/4" output for that leg. Would a standard guitar cable do?

Yes, a guitar cable is the same thing.

I'm making my own out of a shielded, 2 conductor cable (leaving the shield "floating" on one end). It'll only be a couple bucks and hopefully uses a bit better cable.

[Jack Gilvey]

Cool, thanks. Would something like this be what I want to use on a mic cable for the XLR-RCA conversion? Looking to stop at Guitar Center this afternoon and see if they have it all in stock. Well, that and an '06 Standard Tele in Arctic White...

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/General/Accessories/Cables?sku=339514

[dyazdani]

Yes, that will do it - or you could build a cable specifically for that use. I'm not a huge Tele fan, more a Strat kinda guy...

[Jack Gilvey]

Thanks again.

Never owned a Tele, I've only had Strats myself. This one felt sweet last time, though, pretty heavy pups for bluesy/rock stuff.

[---k---]

For RCA -> XLR, I use one of these: http://www.musiciansfriend.com/produ...les?sku=333031

$6.99 from musicians friend. It is not the typical home theater overbuilt monster cable, but it seems to work well.

[Jack Gilvey]

That looks perfect...thanks.

[JohnS]

I appreciate yalls input. I have continued my daily reading homework assignments and have a few more questions. Am I understanding this project(single 3.0 pe, 15" high power eq'd sealed sub config) to include the following: 3.0 box, 15" driver, pro amp, eq, LT, and misc supplies(pink panther, screws,tape, connection post)? Does this include all "parts" I need? I am having second thoughts about the resulting product? I keep looking back at the velo hgs/servo15/eq 15 etc.. and wanting to know that my home sub will compete? I really want to pull the trigger on this project esp bec if, i say if i can build a sub that comes close to the performance of the velo/paradigm....plays low, clean, accurate and powerful for a much reduced price.....its a no brainer. I dont want to spend the time on this project to finally throw the switch and end up blowing a transformer down the road. Trying to add some humor to this.

John

[---k---]

Subs are easy. You just build a solid box, put in a driver, and hook up an amp. Commercial offerings have big mark-ups partially because subs are generally big, heavy and therefore cost a lot to ship and stock. The better subs also aren't sold in large volume, so there is additional room to mark them up as a speciality item.

I've heard a Paradigm Servo 15 and Mark Seaton's Prototype dual15" sub at dealers, and have had a Velodyne DD12 and a Martin Logan Decent in my living room along side my twins. All of these are twice what I paid for mine. In my opinion, one of my subs was very similar to the Servo 15; Mark's sub was impressive and probably if I would tweak mine some more and maybe replace the BFD with a DEQ so I can get a true L/T it would be very similar; the DD12 has slick software and is a nice sub but is a real wuss when compaired to my DIY twins, and the ML is supposedly a good sub but I couldn't get it setup well and it also looked like a wuss compared to mine.

So yes, if you got minimal skills, you can build a sub that will compete or even embarass retail sub offerings. I think the ID subs are a little bit more competive, but still not close.

Oh, and half the fun is building it. I think I would build another sub all over again just for the fun of a project and building, even if I couldn't beat the price of the best ID sub.

As for your parts list:

You listed EQ and L/T seperate. If you are going to add the L/T, take Thomas's advice and get the Behringer DEQ and skip the BFD.

You may want to get a good spool of the Sound King 12ga wire. Use it to run from your amp to the sub, and then also inside the sub. Also consider adding: Cone Spikes, Grill Cloth, Bananna Plugs.

Everything else that will come up like paint and weather stripping can be purchased from Lowes or HD, so no worries now. Get your PE and driver order in. You'll be happy soon.

[JohnS]

Thanks K. I'll tell you the truth, I'm tryin real hard to understand the lingo involved so that I can 1/2 way understand what yall are talking about. I want the sub to go low, how low, I dont know what ever cd sound or action movie scene comes out of my speakers. I dont want the subs to be restricted. That is one of the main reasons I have asked the questions here. I do know what a commercial sub will do based on what the manuf say, well hope it does what they say. The sub(s) have to integrate well with my mains. They are not full range. I thought I wanted to build 1 12" sub, but oh no a 15" is bigger/better, then oh no, amp supports 2 subs, eq supports 2 subs, hey wait adding a second is only 500.00 more. D@mn now I'm sitting at 2K for 2 15 subs vs spending anywhere from 1K for an onix 12" sealed to 1.5K for seismic 12 to 2K for a servo 15. Hmmmm 2 15" home builts for the price of 1 commercial?

Anyway... Am I on the right bus assuming I want 2 -15's vs 2 12" drivers. Remember its quality sound I'm after. I am a young old school used to be cheap audio toy gatherer-used to boomy bass, not quality. The time has come and my upgrade is lacking 1 last component, no wait maybe 2 last components.

Thanks
John

[Dotay]

Why not start with one sub and if it doesn't fit your needs build a second one. You'll already have the capability built in if you purchase the EP2500 and the DEQ unit. It's very likely one will suit your needs (especially if you've owned marginal equipment in the past) but if you feel you'll need the additional headroom a second can be added without too much added expense.

If you're budget conscious then you should be plenty happy with a BFD and one 15" sub but you seem very concerned about meeting/exceeding the performance of a servo sub which is why people have recommended the DEQ unit since you can use it to simulate an LT circuit. You could start with one sub, EP2500, and BFD and if you're happy you saved youself ~$500+. You don't need a midi controller, an external soundcard, a laptop, and room eq wizard to set up the BFD, it simply makes it easier. All you really need is a RS meter (~$40) and something to generate some test tones so you can measure your subs response. You can then manually input values into the BFD but using the other methods (midi controller, etc) makes adjusting much quicker.

If after that you find yourself unsatisfied buy another sub. If still unsatisfied sell the BFD and buy the DEQ to add boost down low. If you're still not happy after that you've got problems. :

[---k---]

My two came in less than $1000 when all said and done, including paint and glue. If you use the prebuilt boxes, you're going to be a little higher, but not much. And, you can save by buying the BFD insted of the DEQ. Without any eq, depending on room placement, I could get strong output down to 20hz. So, the L/T may not necessarily be needed.

I agree with Dotay. Build one box, use the BFD, and see how you like it. If it was fun, and you want more, you can easily build the second. If you want to go lower than the BFD will give you, you can sell it and buy the DEQ.

[JohnS]

Thanks. Am I understanding the DEQ unit will simulate an LT circuit and the sms-1 will NOT?

[Jack Gilvey]

What Thomas said above:

The other major benefit to the DEQ2496 is that it allows the user to create an LT (Linkwitz-Transform) circuit. This means the box can be equalized to sound like a larger box with a lower "Q". This can't be done with a SMS-1

As far as I know, the Velodyne doesn't have the requisite shelving filters.

[JohnS]

Thanks Jack, I did see Thomas and Dotay post about LT. I read the write up on it and it looks like the DEQ does alot more than create an LT circuit. I wonder if that sucker could tell me how to win the lotto? More humor, at first glance -it does appear to be a challenge to operate.

[ThomasW]

More humor, at first glance -it does appear to be a challenge to operate.

It's actually easier than it first appears. The way to approach it is to realize it's a computer of sorts. I just plugged mine into the AC with no audio signals and started playing with the various settings. Obviously I couldn't hear what was happening but the graphic display gives a lot of information. Then I added the mic and played with the RTA and the settings in the 'Utility' menu.

Next I need to make up some more XLR cables, put it in the system with the Arvo's, and start listening to what it does.

[Jack Gilvey]

Productive day at Guitar Center:



Got a nice deal on that whole package, too...me have busy weekend. Another cool possibility is that the DEQ could handle both a monopole and a dipole sub in the same system, having the choice of 6 or 12dB/oct. slopes for the shelving filters.

[WillyD]

What a beautiful strat in the background, Jack.

[Jack Gilvey]

Nice, huh? Deluxe Players model. Vintage Noiseless pups, 12" radius...best playing and looking guitar I've owned and it's an under-$600 axe.

I see the specs list the FR of the DEQ as -1dB @ 10Hz, but the display only goes down to 20Hz. I'm assuming the curves for the PEQ/shelving filters continue to below 20Hz?

[ThomasW]

I'm sure it's like the BFD's where the lowest hinge point is 20Hz but depending on the bandwidth of the filter it will EQ lower. Ken Bruce measured the BFD to 5Hz.

[Jack Gilvey]

Next I need to make up some more XLR cables, put it in the system with the Arvo's, and start listening to what it does.

While nowhere near the Arvos, I did try the DEQ 2496 full-range last night on my Athena F2 towers and the improvement (for which there's apparently quite a bit of room) wrought is not subtle. I used analog connections on both ends so I could listen to SACD on my Denon 2900 (not an option over optical), did the auto-eq routine for each speaker to 80Hz, then tweaked the bass manually. If there was any lack of transparency from the unit, I couldn't detect it. Amazing how the bass cleared up, and vocals gained body. Center images which had pulled to one side are now firmly anchored (The L/R speakers displayed quite dissimilar frequency responses comparing the corrective eq for each one).
Once you play with it a bit (the manual is no substitute for this), it's pretty easy to operate.

[ThomasW]

Good news .... :T

I'm going to blatently steal a lot of info from those two DEQ threads, then condense it for use in writing the operation guide.

Any tips/tricks you want to add from your experiences would be welcome....