800D and more bass - biamp or add sub ?

[radim]

Hello.
I've got B&W 800D with classe monoblocks cam-400 and listen 2-channel musik only.
I really enjoy this system, but I would like do some improve in the lowest bass area - the last octave, so from 50Hz down.
Oh, I like bass response, for example jazz contrabass, I must feel it.

I have two ideas:
1. add next two classe monoblocks cam-400 and use biamping.
2. add two subs ( for example velodyne dd-18 ) with crossover around 50Hz.

Thanks for your comments.

Radim

[johan]

Hello!

First work with placement, those speakers are full range and should provide bass enough. Extra power is wasted money, add subs instead.

Wonderful system!!

Johan.

[radim]

I experienced with placement of course. I must say, I founded really big difference in the sound.
Maybe it isn't so audiophille, but I like huge bass response.

[Isaac]

I would recommend a subwoofer if you enjoy deep bass you can feel. REL sub bass systems integrate well with 2-channel systems.

[Horacio]

I agree with what others have said here. More power might improve dynamics, but won't make your speakers go lower than what they do now.

A large REL (like a Studio) or a JL Gotham would probably be my choice. Maybe try with one and then decide if you need 2. I suspect you won't.

Another thought, given that you say it might not be audiophile but you like huge bass response. Maybe what you like is your frequency response to be higher on the bass than what your amps are providing now. An option would be to biamp and use a crossover like a Bryston 10B and provide the amps reproducing the bass higher gain than the amps reproducing the mids/trebble. It would be an expensive experiment, though.
I am experimenting with biamping 804S with a tube amp on top and a SS for bass. The tube amp has variable gain, so I don't need the crossover to experiment. Lowering the gain in the tube amp heightens the frequency response on the bass and you can get huge bass response (in the context of what 804S can offer, of course!)...yet it doesn't necessarily sound right to my ears.

Just a nother thought. You have a great system. How big is the room, by the way?

[radim]

Thanks for yours comments.

My romm is big 7.0x4.5m (23x15f).
Speakers are aside shorter wall. Their position is 1.25m (4.1f) from the back wall, and 1.2m (3.9f) from the side wall.

I think the room acoustic is not perfect mainly for the bass area, at the speakers is bass bigger, than in my listening position (2.5m, 8.2f) from the back wall : some standing waves are problem.

About subs, you don't like velodyne ?

[radim]

And one thing is not written here: 800d are extremely power hungry, so therefore I wrote about biamping.

[1oldguy]

I've seen picks where there was 2 Cam 400's on each 800D.They love power.

[Kal Rubinson]

1. Better placement. As we have learned with MCH, the best place for imaging may not be the best place for bass, so this may be a counterproductive effort.

2. Bi-amping. Unless there is an issue of serious underpowering, biamping will not (in fact, should not) change the overall balance to give you more bass. Same for a bigger amp.

3. Subwoofer. This, indeed, has the potential to give you more and more extended bass even with the 800s. I would suggest a large(!) sub with good digital EQ built in or added on in the form of the AntiMode 8033 or the new SVS sub EQ. Neither of those will affect the main channels at all.

4. EQ and/or tone control. If all you want is a little boost of the low bass so you can feel it, this might be the easiest solution as the 800s are certainly quite capable of moving a lot of air. In fact, have you considered that room acoustics/treatment might also help?

Kal

[radim]

OK.
I use now cardas calculate position speakers, so side distance is width x 0.276 and back wall distance is width x 0.353. Bass response is better, imaging more better, WAF factor is worse of course.
For feeling lowest bass, it's difficult to me. Room treatment is the question for professional expert, not for me.
And the other problem is I cannot try classe biamp and 2 sub's in my room. Dealers in my area doesn't exists. Buy or bye.

[sikoniko]

I think your best bet would be to hire an acoustician to come in and measure your room and make suggestions. Your seat could be in a null. the recommendations will probably cost less than the other options.

[bigburner]

Radim,

Get a good sub (or two) and experiment. What have you got to lose? Compared to what you've spent already a good sub (or two) will be malou částku peněz.

Nigel.

[radim]

Nigel,

I think your right.
The life is too short to listen only hifi !
And experimenting may will be enjoy too.

[Antus]

Classe amps are "lean" on the bass department. u can try Krell, Bryston amp. i think the difference are quite large.

a sub can give u huge bass. but i think 2 channel music sound the best with 2 speakers. adding a sub doesn't sound as natural.

[Jovl]

Classe amps are "lean" on the bass department. u can try Krell, Bryston amp. i think the difference are quite large.

a sub can give u huge bass. but i think 2 channel music sound the best with 2 speakers. adding a sub doesn't sound as natural.

That's it , go for a Krell amp on the 800D's , i have the 800D with the Krell FPB700cx and need no sub.



Jovl

[radim]

I don't talk about bass department but about lowest bass (from 50Hz down) only.
It's a very big difference. Upper basses I have enough and to spare. It's not problem Classe amp, it's my music preferences only.
I'm in the conviction that 99% users should be no problem. So, I have sub in past and it had left maybe nonaudiophile consequences.
And Classe - I love its smooth demonstration. I hate the bright sound.

Radim

[DM3000 Owner]

Classe amps are "lean" on the bass department. u can try Krell, Bryston amp. i think the difference are quite large.

a sub can give u huge bass. but i think 2 channel music sound the best with 2 speakers. adding a sub doesn't sound as natural.

I had both Bryston 7B ST's and Classe CAM350's in teh house at the same time with S800's. Very similar sound - not much difference in bass. The Classe was slightly warmer, the Bryston more accurate. YMMV.

[peter clarke]

B&W 800D ? bi-amp

Radim, My 800D's are passive bi-amped with VTL S-400 on hi/mid and parasound JC-1's for lo frequency, I have researched this and found articles suggesting hi power amps for each not lo-power tubes for the hi/mid especially for the 800D's, the crossovers are designed for such use and encouraged to experiment with gain/polarity matched amps!!!!! I believe if 4 CAM-400's are trialled [home demo.] you might be surprised at the extension on the bass and increased mid-range depth and clarity, listen and you'll see P.C.

[BassThatHz]

What you must do... is go buy an SPL meter and measure the speakers output with sine sweeps. Anything else, is nothing more then guess work.

If you like musical quality, then a 5+ band parameteric EQ is a must for a subwoofer; doesn't matter if that's external or built-in.

A pair of DD-18's or JL Fathom's or SVS Ultra's should be more than enough output for all but the "craziest" of bass-head; in which case your best bet is a DIY solution.

I own 3 Velodyne subwoofers and two DIY-15's. I have been using subs for 8 years, I'm not a guru... but I know what I'm talking about.

[Kal Rubinson]

What you must do... is go buy an SPL meter and measure the speakers output with sine sweeps. Anything else, is nothing more then guess work.

Sine sweeps are inadequate. Get the SPL meter and a copy of RoomEQ Wizard to see what is happening in the time domain.

If you like musical quality, then a 5+ band parameteric EQ is a must for a subwoofer; doesn't matter if that's external or built-in.

Agreed and already suggested.