800D and VLT but what about HT?

[MikeS]

I was really into audio gear in the 1970s (yes, I'm old) and was able to try many tube components of the era from Marantz, Mac, early ARC and more. My last set-up was a Marantz 8B amp (fantastic highs), Mac C22 pre-amp (good highs, mediocre bass) with 15" JBL woofers, Altec drivers/horns and ElectroVoice tweeters. So you can see where I'm coming from -- mid and high but plenty of bass as well.

Now I'm just getting back into audio and the gear available these days does a far better job all around than I could ever cobble together back then. Besides, my wife won't let me put my old tube stuff and giant speakers and horns in the new house so we're looking at new gear. She is very sensitive to harshness in the highs so anything with a titanium dome tweeter just irritates her. We auditioned ML Summit driven by Mac gear (sorry, I don't know the model #) and while it was really open the sound wasn't the smooth and real sound we were looking for. In another store we were steered towards 802D and it was a revelation. The diamond tweeters are clearly much more than an expensive gimmick, the mids are solid and the bass clean and tight. These were driven by Rotel. But that's the only good electronics brand they had and I also wanted to compare with the 800D. The 802D is fantastic but for my taste (largely full-range classical) it just seemed a little weaker in the bass than mids and highs.

We got a chance to try the 800D and 802D today, along with ML Summit and a couple JM speakers with different electronics at a store that's got several listening rooms packed with all sorts of great goodies. First the 800D on Mac but it's not our kind of sound -- clean and clear but, well, "harsh" would be too harsh a comment but let's say it's a bit bright. Nothing wrong with it but just personal preference. Then the 802D with Krell amp. Our sales guy is really experienced and started catching on to what we're looking for. He put in a VTL 5.5 pre-amp and it improved (again, for us). So we all looked at the big VTL MB450's sitting in front of us at the same time. He put those in and it was just heaven. OK, so now we took the gear to the other room to try with the 800D -- I was still looking for a little more bass response -- and the combination was about as good as we could ever hope for. The price is about double our original budget but once we heard it there's just no turning back. It's way beyond what I could ever get from the best gear I got to tinker with in the "old days." The tubes and diamond tweeter is the sweetest possible sound, extremely easy to listen to, with highs I feel like I'm hearing beyond what my old ears can really do. Mids are solid and not too out front but not lost in the background, either, and there's just no weakness at all transitioning through mid-bass to the lowest of lows. The most balanced system I've ever heard.

So what's the problem? Besides the price (uh, you only live once, and I have less time than I used to!), the thing that started all this off was deciding to get a new TV. While we were at it we wanted to upgrade the HT system and get something suitable for real music. We're using an old Harmon-Karden receiver with some Infinity speakers that's far better than TV speakers but not a serious sound system. The 802D/Rotel system was going to have amps all over the place driving speakers and all the features to make it simple for HT but now we're in a different game.

But now we're thinking of just staying with the 2-channel that's really an audiophile music system (I love it!) and dropping the other channels we would have had for TV. Really, we just want good sound for movies but not the movie theater all-encompassing right in the action experience. In fact, my wife doesn't like rear speakers, even in theaters. She's distracted by sound not associated with what she can see. I'm fine with that.

I've read a few comments on this forum that 2-channel with a phantom center can work well. If that's the case then we're fine with that. Does the fact that movies are coded to use centers make a difference? The 800D can certainly deliver whatever sound the movie has but will the staging be right or will it suffer for lack of the center channel?

An even bigger problem that arose after moving up the ladder and lodging ourselves in the stratosphere of audio. Using this system for HT with a TV. My wife has no problem pushing switches on three VTL components and not having a remote for music listening. She's used to that. But she's not going to be happy doing that just to watch the news or channel surf. She didn't like having multiple remotes before we got a universal that could turn everything on/off with one button (cable box, TV, sound, CD/DVD). And with no remote volume control or mute it's a bit inconvenient. OK, for a movie where you set it and leave it it's OK but not for casual TV use. Besides, it's not worth wearing out the tubes just to listen to a poor transmission of a news anchor's voice exquisitely reproduced.

The sales guy showed us the Yamaha, uh, thing that has a complete surround sound system in one long narrow box. He said we could use that for normal TV. That would work but the sound is crumby -- and harsh -- and we'd be paying a lot for of features we wouldn't use. My wife doesn't want to have two systems, anyway, and I don't disagree. She says, "I don't want the living room to look like a stereo shop." That sounds OK to me but she's been there with me in our younger days (we had people say that when they came in) and doesn't want it in our nicer house now. I agree. I'm beginning to wonder if it might be the only way, though.

Using the HK and Infinity towers isn't going to work -- too big and obvious and ugly and not worth it for the sound we'd get. I thought we might look at the 805 and put them on a shelf by the TV (do they come off the stands?) and get an AV receiver but now we're spending more money for stuff to put next to the good gear. We're not as rich as it sounds (especially after we do this!) but for me the music system is really important. I told my wife I'd give up the Ferrari I want but can't afford anyway. I haven't listened to the 805 but I know they have aluminum tweeters so I assume it's not going to sound as smooth as the D series (what does?) but maybe with a more limited amp just for regular TV it would be OK.

Best would be to find a way to utilize the 800D with the TV. That would mean having a way to add a few simple features like remote with on/off, volume, mute. I can't think of a way to do that but I don't know all the gear.

So after that extremely long message the basic questions are:
1) Will we miss the center channel if we use only the two 800D? Will staging be OK for movies?
2) Any ideas on how to use this music system for HT, too? The quality of the music is more important to us but we don't want to end up with cheap HT speakers when we have the 800Ds sitting there! But running the VLT tube gear for listening to news may not be a good idea, either.

The TV is Pioneer Elite Kuro 60" plasma.

Any and all comments welcome, useful or just for fun.

Thanks.

Mike

[Pato]

Congrats on the 800D.

1) No you won't. Yes it will.
2) Listen to news through the Kuro.

IMHO of course.

[dknightd]

I'd just use the TV's built in speakers for news and casual TV watching.
Only fire up the big system for music, and movies (then mute the TV speakers).
That works in our house. Perhaps it will in yours as well.

If you find your TV speakers too poor for even this use, you could consider
a small integrated amp (which you could perhaps hide someplace), and a pair of small bookshelves (yes the 805 don't come with stands - but they are probably overkill for the news) hooked up to the audio out (or headphone) jack on the TV (most TV's let the remote control the volume going out these ports - so it would still be convenient).

Edit: Just one mans opinion.
I want 800D's one day - nice speakers

[Pato]

Well i listen to the news through my 802D (it feels great writing this, my 802D :drool: )... but i don't have to worrie about those "lamps" fading out one day, isn't it MikeS? :W

[MikeS]

Congrats on the 800D.

1) No you won't. Yes it will.
2) Listen to news through the Kuro.

IMHO of course.

Thanks very much for your HO, Pato. It's good news. It should be enough for us. The Kuro speakers are really junk, though, so we need something else. But we'll figure out something.

Mike

[MikeS]

Thanks, dknightd. So you're doing pretty much what I figured we'd have to do. And the 805 being overkill is good news. We'll look at something less expensive (the Kuro speakers are junk) and check the available Kuro outputs. Should work.

I want 800D's one day - nice speakers

I haven't heard a B+W speaker yet that wasn't really nice. The 800D would probably be overkill for most but being more into the audio system than HT -- and having been doing this for a long time -- it's worth it to me to finally decide "some day" is here. As long as my wife is convinced of that I'm OK.

Mike

[MikeS]

Well i listen to the news through my 802D (it feels great writing this, my 802D :drool: )...

Yeah, I'll bet! I hope to be saying that soon, too.

but i don't have to worrie about those "lamps" fading out one day, isn't it MikeS? :W

That's a problem. As a hobbyist (IOW, pathetically obsessed :crazy: ) I don't mind but it's certainly not for everyone.

Mike

[wgriel]

While this doesn't address your primary concerns, if you (or your wife) have issues with remotes, I can very strongly recommend the Logitech Harmony 880

This is far more than just a universal remote - once it "knows" the devices in your system, most operations involve pressing a single button.

I think it may have saved my marriage

Bill

[MikeS]

Thanks Bill. The Logitech looks like a great device and is a lot cheaper than some of those available (that have way more than we need). It won't turn on the VTL amps because they just don't have remote capability, though. I'm going to see if there's a remotely-operated power device that can do that but I don't know if that's OK for the amps. If there is something like that the Logitech looks like a real good option for us.

Mike

[RebelMan]

Welcome Mike. Your read is just like a chapter out of our book. We had to deal with the same set of issues that you and your wife face now. I am going to cut right to the chase and tell you what we had to do.

I had a pair of 803S for mains and an HTM3S for a center. When I replaced the mains with a pair of 800D I kept the center for a while only to discover it HAD to go. I later considered a third 800D for the center but my (current) space would not accommodate it. Then I looked at the HTM1D. I seriously considered it too but my subwoofer, which sits between my mains, would have to move. That’s not possible for two reasons. One, I have no other (proper) place to put it and two I am getting (by far) the best response from where it is now. So I am living with a phantom center. Is it a compromise? Yes, but not much and the tradeoffs outweigh any disadvantages.

With the 800D toed in to the precise location I have optimized two-channel playback when sitting in the prime location AND maintained decent off-axis response for people watching movies. I usually sit in the middle but just the other night I was off to one side and center channel destined dialog was surprising very good. It confirmed for me and mine that I do not require a dedicated center at this time. This was an impossible achievement with the 803S but not so with the 800D’s wide scale dispersion.

Another advantage to the phantom is the seamless dialog pans across the screen. Dedicated centers sitting above or below the mains driver planes can skew the presentation and draw your attention to the speaker but not the screen. When voices look like they should be coming from one side of the screen or the other, they actually appear to originate from there with a phantom center. Of course this only makes a difference when you have a large screen. Ours’ is a 60” KURO (more on this in a minute).

The only real disadvantage with our phantom is the loss of calibration and the dependencies placed on the computational strength of the surround sound processor. I have a Classe’ SSP which does an excellent job mixing dialog into the mains but I do miss the control I would have with movies that are not well mixed or exhibit some imbalances, and many do. We also considered dual speaker configurations, that is one set for two-channel and the other for HT. My advise to you here is DON’T DO IT! The 800D, along with our Classe’ equipment, creates a HUGE enveloping soundfield that the 805S will not come close to replicating. My superior sounding 803S couldn’t muster it therefore the 805S surely won’t. Given that your wife is looking for options that don’t include surrounds (I don’t recommend that but different strokes for different folks) you’ll need the 800D to simulate the job. Until I have a dedicated room that can accommodate a third 800D or a raised HTM1D, the “phantom” of our opera is here to stay. LOL

So after that extremely long message the basic questions are:
1) Will we miss the center channel if we use only the two 800D? Will staging be OK for movies?
2) Any ideas on how to use this music system for HT, too? The quality of the music is more important to us but we don't want to end up with cheap HT speakers when we have the 800Ds sitting there! But running the VLT tube gear for listening to news may not be a good idea, either.

1. No. Staging will be excellent for on-axis listeners and surprisingly good for off-axis listeners, provided a high-performance SSP is in toe. Your HK may or may not pull it off.

2. Depends. First, scrap the cheap HT speakers idea, you don’t need them!!! Second, are you using a pre-amplifier with HT pass-through?

Back to the 60” KURO. Why can’t you use the Pio speakers for regular programming? Seriously, what are you missing in broadcast news that requires high caliber speakers? :roll:

We chose the 60” PureVision KURO over the Elite for one reason and one reason only, the bottom attached speaker. Why? Because our nook couldn’t accommodate the Elite with its speaker ears. We had to pick the non-Elite. So why would I use the TV speaker for watching the news? For the same usability reasons you mentioned. Besides the new and improved Pio speakers, on the PureVision at least, sound fine for what they do PLUS when company is over and they want to watch a little tele, when I am not around, it prevents them from tampering with the real goods! If you are going to get the Elite use its speakers for trivial programming and leave the “good stuff” to your 800D. If you can’t accommodate the side speakers then get the PureVision instead. IMO, it looks better with the bottom mounted speaker and video performance is within a hair’s reach of the Elite.

[MikeS]

Wow, RebelMan (comment on that later), thanks for the incredible post. Right out of your book, as you say. I wasn't expecting to find someone who's been through exactly the same process. Looks like I came to the right place!

I'm delighted to hear you've found the two speaker set-up to do the trick with the 800Ds. I stopped by another place just yesterday and a very experienced stereo and HT guy recommended that we have the center channel. He suggested getting a less-expensive SSP and HT 3-channel receiver (Rotel) and using the center for regular TV, then using both for movies. The 3-channel would run rears, too (more on that later). This guy said it wouldn't matter if the center channel and the electronics that run it didn't match the mains. I was doubtful of that and it sounds like your experience with the 800D and HTM3S confirms that. The sound quality would be different so wouldn't we notice dialog moving from center to front? Wouldn't we notice the difference in sound character? Being distracted by that would be worse than not having the center. But adding the HTMD1 and another quality amp would not only break the bank (which is serious bent already) but would add bulk that we don't want. I think we could fit it in but even for me coming from the era of BIG stereo gear there's a limit. Maybe I'm just getting old. But the added cost just puts it out of consideration anyway.

What I didn't realize (and maybe he doesn't, either) is that the speakers can make a big difference in how well the phantom center works. Your experience with the 803S and 800D is really useful to know about. That clinches the deal for me.

The stereo guy I talked with yesterday pointed out that being off-axis from the speakers might not sound right for movies with a phantom center. Dialog will sound like it's coming from one speaker or the other. That seemed like a reasonable argument for a having a center. I've done a lot of viewing at my son's house where he has a reasonably good HT system and I don't mind sitting well to one side. But the point about the staging seemlessly moving across the screen with just the two mains -- the same as I like when listening to music -- is a really good point. I think that's more important to us, really. It sounds less distracting, and as you can see that's important to us. We don't want to notice the sound system when we're watching a movie (more on that below, too). We just want really good sound but don't want to "watch" it.

Not adding the center channel speakers and electronics will allow us to add a higher-quality SSP than what was suggested as being "good enough" for the center. My usual take on stereo gear has always been that quality trumps everything else and that adding a lesser-quality component anywhere in the system not only chokes the whole system but adds quality mismatches that really affect the over-all listening experience. It looks like this is going to hold this time as well. I'm not sure just how much the SSP will matter for us but it's easy enough to try them out. Any comments or suggestions would of course be welcome. At this point I can't even remember what was going to do that job but it might have been just the cable box. I've been focusing on the bigger decisions like speakers and amps (bigger to me, anyway).

As for rears, I'd have them if it was simple and cheap but frankly I wouldn't really miss them. With an extra 3-channel receiver already in the system like what was suggested I'd probably add them but I wouldn't put out more money for electronics and speakers. As I indicated, we're not into the HT experience as much as the good music, and I think the really quality fronts will be more than good enough for us. Good music in the movie is important to us but sound effects that move off the screen aren't. We'll enjoy the better mains (as opposed to lesser speakers all around) than having the full 5- or 7-speaker set-up, even for the movies. We enjoy the music in the movies and the better sound system will be used much more for just music. Also, I don't plan to have a sub-woofer for the music (could be added if it really needs it) but it would really be needed for HT. I know it sounds like we might not know what we're missing but we've looked (listened) at it enough to know. And my wife really doesn't like something that makes her look off-screen, which she does with every little off-screen noise. So that's fine with us. If we really changed our minds later, well, we've got the start of a great HT system. But unless we build an HT room -- which is definitely not in the budget! -- I'm doubtful we'd want it.

What about the Pioneer's speakers? We listened to them and didn't like them even for news or talk shows. But this was after a few hours of auditioning very high-quality gear so maybe our bar was raised way too high. We'll try it again. But we don't like the look of them, either -- the TV is nice looking but the speakers bring it down a bit. We also listened to the Yamaha surround-system-in-a-box or whatever it's called -- lots of little speakers and all the electronics in a bar that sits below the TV. Unbelievably effective but the Yamaha sound would drive us crazy (too strident for even casual listening for us, especially my wife) and we'd be paying for other stuff we don't need. If this is going to be totally separate from everything else then we'll find something. It would be a low budget and small footprint project so it's not a problem.

I used to work at Griffith Observatory in Los Angeles, which is why I mentioned your tag, RebelMan. I ran the telescope on the roof showing people things in the sky. I'd stand around and answer lots of questions but probably the most common question was if that was where James Dean "died" in Rebel Without a Cause. Right below in the parking lot where I parked was where the knife fight took place, and he was shot out in front of the building. It's a very famous place that gets a huge number of people from all over the world coming through but people still ask about James Dean. The observatory just reopened after years of renovation and there is now a large bust of James Dean out front known as the Rebel Without a Cause monument.

Many thanks again for your reply. It's perfect for what I was looking for.

Mike

[RebelMan]

To center or not to center is really a matter of priorities and compromises. For listeners sitting off-axis an ideal center will anchor the dialog to the screen and provide seamless integration for all participants. Note I said ideal center. What’s an ideal center? One that’s identical to the mains. Anything else is a compromise that will vary in severity and preference.

Whether I sat on-axis or off-axis, the knee high HTM3S, coupled with the 800D, drew too much attention to itself rather than the action occurring on the screen. This made the option to use a phantom center a better choice overall. For casual broadcast programming a dedicated center could be a viable option. It will have the potential of sounding better than the display’s detachable speaker provided the separation between the display screen and the center channel is insignificant. However, this option also comes with one little caveat; you’ll want to avoid using the 800D mains for this application and for watching movies.

Why? First, if I understand the dealer’s recommendation correctly, it’s not going to offer you the simplified solution your wife is looking for. Second, you cannot ignore the fact that speaker/equipment timbre and tonal mismatches are going to occur thus injecting new distractions. Finally, you cannot simply add any ole’ three-channel receiver to your two-channel system and achieve a usable Home Theater. Unless your pre-amplifier has a cinema pass-through feature and you are certain the amplifiers/receiver possess identical output voltage gains you could have major calibration issues to contend with. This would further undermine your desire for a simple system.

In general a dedicated center should be used whenever possible but there are circumstances, like ours, when this option is not practical or the expected outcome fails to fully materialize commensurate with the investment of time and materials. With the 800D, the choice to use a phantom center was the most reasonable and acceptable compromise at the time.

I couldn’t imagine living with a Home Theater without surrounding speakers. Granted their use is limited but in times when superb channel mixing and steering are employed they can offer amazing visceral feel. I have experimented with and without the use of surrounds and I learned very quickly their place and importance in a multi-channel environment.

As for subwoofers they are a must for Home Theater but when it comes to stereo sources you are preaching to the choir. I agree they don’t belong along side full-range speakers for the vast majority of pre-recorded music. Contrary to popular belief you’re not missing a thing without them.

I didn’t care for the look of the Pioneer Elite speaker ears either. The under belly PureVison version is much better IMO. After a spell you don’t even notice it. Pioneer did a great job stealthily blending together the 8th generation speaker and display but I understand it’s not for every body.

Wow, what great insight into the life and times of the Rebel, thanks for sharing that bit of trivia Mike. I am often asked about my name and how I got it. I tell them my mom was a fan of James Dean but she wanted to name me John and that surprises them. Ironically, it was my dad that named me James. Funny thing is my famous name doesn’t stop here. Guess what my middle name is? :W

[MikeS]

What’s an ideal center? One that’s identical to the mains. Anything else is a compromise that will vary in severity and preference.

That would be quite a system with the 800Ds! That, of course, is not going to be happening in our humble home. Your comments on this reassure me that the idea of using a non-matching center for dual use -- regular TV and center for surround -- would likely be poor at both tasks. I believe the pre-amp (VTL 5.5) does have a pass-through but I think a phantom center is clearly the better choice for us. Then we just need something simple for news, etc. We'll listen to the Pioneer's "ears" again but I think we're more likely heading towards a couple of little bookshelf speakers, perhaps with an inexpensive integrated amp or receiver. Really inexpensive, hopefully.

I tend to agree with you about having the surround speakers. It helps to put you in the action. But that's another compromise for us and one that's worth it to us. My wife is distracted by them and doesn't really like them even in the theaters. And I can live without them just fine if it means having a better system for music. That's where my interest really lies and what elicits my excitement in getting this system. Good sound for the movies is nice, too, but I could never sacrifice quality in the music system to fit surround speakers into the budget. I suppose that sounds heretical in this forum. But this was definitely the place to come for help on these decisions and it was a very good move to post here.

As for subwoofers they are a must for Home Theater but when it comes to stereo sources you are preaching to the choir. I agree they don’t belong along side full-range speakers for the vast majority of pre-recorded music. Contrary to popular belief you’re not missing a thing without them.

It really matters to me that the frequency range be covered smoothly. Gaps in some areas are really noticeable to me. I'd rather sacrifice a little range or quality (just a little) to have that smooth response. If you have that then to some extent you don't notice what you're missing. With dips within the range you notice it. The 800D does that. Adding a sub would likely disturb that balance in the bass. I'd rather be weak in the very lowest frequencies -- despite my background with 15" woofers and full-range speakers of a bygone era -- than have unbalanced sound. I see the importance of it in the HT, though, and this is something we should consider. It's possible to add later with the pre-amp and SSP we're getting (same could be possible with the rears) but it's really unlikely that I'm going to add another VTL MB450 monoblock just to run a sub. But we'll explore options on a sub for HT to be sure we have that option, at least, and even to see if we really need to add that now.

Another decision has to do with the room itself and maybe you or someone else will have some comments. We have wood floor in much of the house and now that the carpet elsewhere is wearing out we're thinking of putting wood everywhere else instead of replacing the carpet. It's a much better option for us for many reasons including allergies, ease of cleaning and the look, all of which suit our situation better. But replacing carpet in the room with this system with wood seems like a bad idea. I know wood doesn't really kill the sound -- I had wood in the room where I played with all that tube stuff, big woofers and horn drivers years ago -- but it seems likely to make some difference. I don't want to get this great system (better than anything I had before) and devalue it with the wrong environment, which is otherwise pretty good in this room. We'd have a big area rug in the main part of the room and furniture throughout would help reduce reflections that come off the floor so any difference would, I think, be minimal but it's still a hard decision and one that I can't A-B.

Interesting about your name. Could your middle name be Byron? I had to Google James Dean to find his middle name, of course. If you were John it would bring to my mind a central figure in the Watergate scandal surrounding President Nixon's administration but you're too young to remember that.

Mike

[RebelMan]

Yeah, three 800Ds across the front row would be embellishing somewhat, and you’ve got to have the right room with capacity to accommodate them. Our multi-purpose environment precludes the use of a perforated projector screen not to mention that we are too limited on space to accept a third 800D. The HTM1D is the next best thing and we very seriously considered it. It’s more flexible than an 800D but for nearly the same cost I would expect nearly the same results. That means it would have to better the on-axis performance of the phantom center we are getting now with the 800D.

In an effort to experience the difference I demoed an HTM1D at the dealer’s showroom but it was sitting on a pedestal that gave it some height. Unfortunately, our plasma display sits too low, much lower than most accounts, to enable us the same freedoms. And as I previously mentioned the HTM1D would force a move of our subwoofer which does not perform nearly as well in alternate locations. Again for on-axis listeners the 800D and a high-performance SSP make a phantom center the most cost effective option with excellent results. For off-axis listeners and a little speaker toe-in trickery the results can be good enough, especially for people that don’t place priorities on Home Theater.

Mike, have you considered starting with a minimalist system and building it up to fill-in the gaps? Maybe you should start with your 800D and VTL stereo system using the plasma speakers and existing HK pre/pro receiver? Then you could ascertain the weaknesses in your system and address those areas that will receive the most benefit without doing more then you might need too.

When I read your comments about to include or not include surrounds in your plans it got me thinking about the choices I have made along the way. My preferences have been, for years, half-n-half music and movies. I implicitly explained in a recent conversation I had with a friend that my move to the 800D broke away from this tradition. Today by all accounts my system leans more towards the music side of the equation but my preferences haven’t. It wasn’t an easy adjustment to make and some second guessing crept in but I don’t have any regrets. There’ll be time later on to put things back into balance.

If there is any point to be made here it would be my advice to you that you hold true to your first passion… music. If you have to compromise it to make something else work, like Home Theatre, then you should stick with your original intensions. It will make living with your decisions much easier as time goes on. I am stuck with a phantom center for the reasons I have already mentioned but I would have preferred a dedicated one. An 803D pair and HTM2D center would have made a sizeable upgrade from what we had and it would have kept things balanced 50/50. However, the sacrifice to get the 800D, how dare I say that eh, was well worth it and the system imbalance it brought to my 50% HT preferences wasn’t completely unexpected.

Our room was originally finished with wall to wall carpet too. Now it’s all porcelain tiles. To compensate for energy losses in the lower registers and tame the high frequencies we added a quality throw rug of sufficient size. We also added the necessary window coverings to help as well. There is still some work to be done with room acoustics but these two things alone had enough impact to make the space enjoyable.

Interesting about your name. Could your middle name be Byron?

Nice try but no cigar. :B You’re right about the Byron name coming a bit before my time, it was news to me. I’m not going to make guessing it any easier but I will give a hint. Just think “It’s a Wonderful Life”.

Boy was I cursed. :P

[Gump]

I'm in agreement with James here, (not the first time).

Mike, you've already arrived at a comfortable decision related to the 800D's and your electronics which seems to be your primary focal point. Don't sweat the lesser stuff now, especially when you can add it later if needed.

Give the Kuro's speakers a chance for normal TV watching. Their not as bad as you might think (I'm listening to them right now!). They have several adjustments available to you as well. There's the treble, bass, and balance basic adjustments as well as 3 "Sound Effect" settings: SRS FOCUS (shifts direction of the sound), SRS (reproduces 3-dimensional sound), and SRS TruBass (produces "deep,rich bass").

Check out Pioneer's website for more detailed info.

If you try it for a few months and it's not enough for you then you can always add a center or bookshelves later with appropriate electronics.

Nice posts, James. I'm impressed with you talking about your 800D's and system without specifically mentioning your beloved Classe electronics. Great willpower... :lol:

"James Clarence Dean"? Gotta a nice ring to it...

[RebelMan]

Nice posts, James. I'm impressed with you talking about your 800D's and system without specifically mentioning your beloved Classe electronics. Great willpower... :lol:

Thanks Neil. You know me all too well. I resisted the temptation but it wasn't easy. I respect the man's judgement. Besides VTL is great high-end stuff too.

"James Clarence Dean"? Gotta a nice ring to it...

Yeah, that does sound nice. Nice attempt, so for you I'll just give it away. My middle name is Jimmy Stewart's last name spelled differently... James "Stuart" Dean. Crazy eh? Like I said, cursed but in a very cool way. :B

[Gump]

Thanks Neil. You know me all too well. I resisted the temptation but it wasn't easy. I respect the man's judgement. Besides VTL is great high-end stuff too.

Yeah, that does sound nice. Nice attempt, so for you I'll just give it away. My middle name is Jimmy Stewart's last name spelled differently... James "Stuart" Dean. Crazy eh? Like I said, cursed but in a very cool way. :B

Hey, I'd take Stuart over Clarence any day! Kudos to your dad, he sounds like a creative guy. Two movie star's names for the price of one. :T

[RebelMan]

Hey, I'd take Stuart over Clarence any day! Kudos to your dad, he sounds like a creative guy. Two movie star's names for the price of one. :T

LOL, thanks. Actually, I don't think dad realized what he did until after he did it. He was thinking of someone else at the time. A guy named "Saint James". Funny how things work out though. I found it most surprising as I got older how many young people know about James Dean. Living with two famous names hasn't been easy though. Anytime I give it over the phone I have to reassure them it is legitimate. I have gotten the "yeah right" more than a few times.

[MikeS]

Hey, no fair! I was going to say James Stewart Dean but I didn't have time to post! :P I had the spelling wrong on the middle name anyway.

James, as usual, your reply is very helpful. We're pretty much convinced to go with the phantom center. We can always add a center speaker later if we really want to. To get the best sound in the mains we're going to need a quality SSP anyway so we'd just be adding another speaker and amp (just? ). You said to consider trying the HK receiver we have but it's an old low-end model that's not likely to do the job with the high-end components. We're going to listen to some SSPs and see if we can get away without something too expensive but we do want to use the 800Ds to full advantage for movies, too, if possible. But as you suggest, we're not going to compromise on the music side of the equation. That's too important for us.

We may take the minimalist approach in some other ways, though. I mentioned that we're deciding on the flooring but that isn't all that's going on. The room is pretty much being redesigned. I think we're probably going to stick with some of what we have and make some decisions later as we see how it goes. The music system will be set and as you say we can make some decisions on the exclusively HT part later.

Interesting that you're gradually taming the tile floor. That must be worse on the highs than wood. We're thinking of doing what we talked about above -- go ahead and set up the music/HT with the existing carpet and leave that decision until next year some time. All that's lost is that we have to move the system out later. I really wanted to avoid that -- these speakers weigh almost 300 pounds each! -- but it's probably better not to rush it. That lets us take it easier with other decisions as well. It's complex.

Gump, thanks for the information on the Pioneer's capabilities. I'm going to check the speakers out again and see if we want to go with them. We may try them for a while as you suggest. And we're gradually letting go of the small stuff for now as you also suggested. Sometimes you just have to step back and take a deep breath.

I think James did mention he uses Classe but he didn't push it. I know they're widely used for the BW and very highly regarded. I haven't been able to find any to demo but I really do like tubes. Always have, going back over 30 years now. So I'm sure the VTL will be adequate.

Thanks all.

Mike

[MikeS]

We're going to listen to some SSPs and see if we can get away without something too expensive but we do want to use the 800Ds to full advantage for movies, too, if possible.Mike

Before someone thinks we have excess money we're trying to get rid of, that should have read "something NOT too expensive". Finding something too expensive has never really been a problem.

Mike

[MikeS]

Well, we took the plunge.

We listened to the 800Ds again yesterday, still driven by the VTL 450 monoblocks (barely used demos from just before the latest model upgrade, saving us a lot) and VTL TL-5.5 pre-amp using various CDs in an Esoteric SX-03 SE SACD. Unfortunately, I quickly became aware of the limits of some of my older CD recordings. But the new ones were great and we were convinced we were making the right choice for our ears.

The HT decisions have been difficult, which is of course why I came here in the first place. Bot with music and dialog recordings we were pretty well convinced that we could get by with a phantom center with the 800Ds. The staging is almost unreal. With music recordings I could not only hear the positions of the instruments, I could tell how the drummer had his drums and cymbals arranged as the sound moved back and forth. I was also very pleased (but not entirely surprised thanks to RebelMan) that the dispersion of the 800Ds allowed very good listening pretty far off-axis. You get more from the closest speaker, of course, but the sound remains clear and well-located. I think that with the angle of the TV also changing as you move across the room it will work out OK -- if you've got one speaker lined up with the TV and the dialog comes from that speaker then it should be OK, right?

I'm not convinced that a dedicated center channel wouldn't be better, though. There is still some diffusion of the voices that isn't quite real. I suspect this is highly dependent on speaker placement, room conditions, listener position, etc. so we've decided to try things out with the 2-channel system at home and go from there.

With the help of responders here we've decided that going with an unmatched system wouldn't be a good option, though. Adding an inferior center to the 800Ds would probably only drag them down. The change from the big BW sound to a lesser center would probably be pretty obvious. We've decided to see how it goes with the phantom center and if we want to upgrade we'll just have to win the lottery and "do it right" as my wife says. We're going to be listening to both music and TV through analog 2-channel (using the VTL amp and pre-amp) but if we need to add a center that means we'll need an SSP. We're told that SSPs degrade the sound when sending a decoded signal to high-end amps (opinions on that opinion welcome, of course) unless you go really high-end there, too, which is way beyond what we'll do. But if the center is needed we're going to go for a quality SSP and will probably add a sub and surrounds as well. Once we have the 5.1 signal available the addition of additional channels isn't quite as financially painful. A good-quality 3-channel receiver might be adequate for the additional channels. Or maybe a 5-channel receiver to drive the system, thus retaining consistency across channels. That might sacrifice some sound quality -- there's no way we're going to buy three more VTL monoblocks for HT! -- but I'm sure it would be great anyway even staying within our already busted budget.

But that is a whole other decision that has yet to be explored. I had two purposes in coming here and was to get information on the idea of living without a true center channel. It looks like we can live with it. I also got a much better understanding of the issues and what I'll have to start looking at if we decide to take the whole HT plunge later. Being able to make the first big decision about the system with some confidence that we're not going to get the usability we want based on our own priorities is what's important now.

Then there's the question of what to do about listening to regular TV -- news, talk shows, sports and other programs that don't require warming up and running the bit tube audio system. We've also evolved in our view of that, largely thanks to the input from the forum. We're going to try the Pioneer TV speakers once we get the TV home (thanks to Gump who responded while listening to his own Kuro speakers!). We can now see clearly what our upgrade path is if we decide we need something better, allowing us to not sweat the small stuff now, as Gump advised. RebelMan suggested giving the old HK HT receiver a try so at the very least we'll use that to drive separate speakers for regular TV, if need be. The old HT speakers are going to go, though -- too big and more than needed for regular TV.

This means, of course, that we've reconciled to having a separate system for regular TV if we really need to. Ironically, the whole exercise was based on one decision we made before looking -- only one system for both audio and HT. What we did, though, was go all-out on the audio for music and we recognize that we're going to sacrifice something in exchange -- either the HT experience or more equipment in the room to give us both (along with a lot more money than we ever imagined if we go this way).

But we're comfortable with the biggest decision -- the primary audio system -- in how it will serve us for HT for now. We've learned what the options are if we decide to make changes and know that we won't regret the big commitment we're making farther down the line. The forum -- especially the RebelMan with his experience with the same speakers and decisions -- has really helped out and for that we're very grateful.

Mike

[ShadowZA]

Congratulations, Mike :T

In my humble opinion you have scored a "home-run" in getting the 800D's. The perfect audio investment is how I would describe them.

Wishing you and yours many hours of audio bliss.

[MikeS]

Wow, thanks very much, Shadow. No buyer's remorse here! For us I think we found just the right electronics to match them, too.

I had to look at your profile after seeing the beautiful pic of your system. Wonderful! It does make me regret not having all the HT that you do there -- wonderful BW sound all driven by great Krell stuff.

We're doing cherry on the BW and cabinet as well since we have some in the room already (and we prefer it anyway). Do you have a larger image available on a page somewhere? Your system is beautiful along with sounding (I'm sure) fantastic. We're changing the whole room around so I'm also into the styling these days.

Mike

[peter clarke]

b&w 800d

mikeS, I have 800D's with VTL 7.5/S-400 A GREAT COMBINATION.run ht via ss marantz and switch speaker cables only takes a minute!!!

[MikeS]

mikeS, I have 800D's with VTL 7.5/S-400 A GREAT COMBINATION.

Wow! I saw that amp yesterday in the room where we auditioned the gear one last time and pointed them out to my wife. It made ours seem small. They had two so were probably bi-amping one of the much larger sets of JM speakers there. I hear TL-7.5 is the best.

I like the 5.5/MB-450 combination. They match up really well and they combine with the 800Ds to give us just the kind of sound we want. I tested them with a CD with really low notes (Saint-Saens Organ Sym. with a 16Hz note) to see what the 800D could do and the MB-450s didn't break a sweat. I used to have 15" woofers, huge horn drivers and tweeters in the old days of "Hi-Fi" and wanted to see what the 800D could deliver but the recording isn't that good and the speakers were almost in the middle of the room so it wasn't a good test. Good, though, and whatever I get with them set up right can only be better.

run ht via ss marantz and switch speaker cables only takes a minute!!!

That was my first thought and it would be fine with me. My wife wouldn't want to bother with it, though. How are the 800D on the ss Marantz? Which model?

Mike

[peter clarke]

ss marantz

Mike, power amps sm-17 [3] to run centre and fronts all bridged @ 200 watts 8 ohms, rears pm-17 stereo mode @60 watts per channel so basically ht and stereo systems separate except switching the speaker cables. The addition of the 800D's makes a huge improvement to ht 5.1 concerts, probably wouldn't miss the subwwoofer!!!!!

[ShadowZA]

Wow, thanks very much, Shadow. No buyer's remorse here! For us I think we found just the right electronics to match them, too.

I had to look at your profile after seeing the beautiful pic of your system. Wonderful! It does make me regret not having all the HT that you do there -- wonderful BW sound all driven by great Krell stuff.

We're doing cherry on the BW and cabinet as well since we have some in the room already (and we prefer it anyway). Do you have a larger image available on a page somewhere? Your system is beautiful along with sounding (I'm sure) fantastic. We're changing the whole room around so I'm also into the styling these days.

Mike

Thank you, Mike.

I'm probably much more into music than home theater but from a pragmatic point of view the combination that we have seems to work. The family love to watch movies ... but when I can grab a few moments ... it's good old redbook CD music (good recordings preferred) piped from the Meridian to the 803D's.

I'd like to add that about a year ago I was fortunate enough to spend an afternoon with someone who owned a pair of 800D's and can mention that they brought tears to my eyes. My first choice dream system would, without a second thought, include a pair of these fine beauties. And ... yes ... like yourself and RebelMan ... these would take preference over centers & surrounds.

My feel is that you have done the best thing, Mike. The HT stuff can follow at your convenience.

Here's a recent pic of my setup

[MikeS]

Mike, power amps sm-17 [3] to run centre and fronts all bridged @ 200 watts 8 ohms, rears pm-17 stereo mode @60 watts per channel so basically ht and stereo systems separate except switching the speaker cables. The addition of the 800D's makes a huge improvement to ht 5.1 concerts, probably wouldn't miss the subwwoofer!!!!!

Nice! :T Good to know of a setup that works well with the big 800Ds. I'll consider it if we decide to go to full HT.

Thanks.

Mike

[MikeS]

The family love to watch movies ... but when I can grab a few moments ... it's good old redbook CD music (good recordings preferred) piped from the Meridian to the 803D's.

I'm just learning some of these things, like what I'm actually buying with the SACD. Would SACD discs be preferred? I have lots of redbook but a lot are old recordings that really pinch the sound.

My first choice dream system would, without a second thought, include a pair of these fine beauties. And ... yes ... like yourself and RebelMan ... these would take preference over centers & surrounds.

My feel is that you have done the best thing, Mike. The HT stuff can follow at your convenience.

I really do appreciate that. It's been difficult with decisions I don't really have enough background to make. I'm pumped about getting it now that the decision has been made.

Here's a recent pic of my setup

Sweet! That HTM2 really stands out (and sounds wonderful, I'm sure). Not too different looking than what we'll have with all the cherry wood as well along with the blank TV. Great look. I've grown to like the look of the Kevlar cone and tweeter but my wife may want to keep the screens on most of the time. Of course, I'll have that nice tube glow from the VTLs as well but that's my sentimental side from the old days enjoying that.

Mike

[ShadowZA]

I'm just learning some of these things, like what I'm actually buying with the SACD. Would SACD discs be preferred? I have lots of redbook but a lot are old recordings that really pinch the sound.

Whilst there are a number of well recorded and mixed SACD's about, I rather tend to go for CD's. Easier to access too. Fortunately I have found a generous stock of well recorded smooth jazz (my preferred genre of music) CD labels to satisfy the passion. The preference for CD greatly influenced my decision regarding the Meridian 808 player (with which I am terribly satisfied), which is quite a recent acquisition.

Here's a little bit of info detailing what the Meridian player actually does when reading a redbook CD (taken from http://www.stereophile.com/news/0906...ian/index.html ):

Three powerful on-board digital signal processing (DSP) chips, each capable of 150 MIPS (million instructions per second), handle the task of turning a datastream into music. One upsamples the 44.1 kHz/16-bit CD signal to 176.4kHz/24-bits. This signal is then fed to DVD-Audio–quality delta-sigma digital-to-analog converters (DACs) to drive the analog outputs, while a digital signal at 88.2 kHz sampling rate is supplied to the digital outputs. Meridian claims that this unusual technique enables "filtering to take place far beyond the range of human hearing, as well as offering other, audible benefits, right across the audio band, for ultimate transparency from a CD source." Sound quality is further improved by the 808's triple buffering system, said to reduce jitter to below 90 picoseconds, a specification made possible by a new high-stability clocking system that re-clocks all digital data. The 808's analog and digital sections are fed from separate power supplies; multi-layer circuit boards are said to minimize system noise. The player uses audiophile-grade components throughout.

I really do appreciate that. It's been difficult with decisions I don't really have enough background to make. I'm pumped about getting it now that the decision has been made.

Being pumped is what it's all about. I know the feeling.

Sweet! That HTM2 really stands out (and sounds wonderful, I'm sure). Not too different looking than what we'll have with all the cherry wood as well along with the blank TV. Great look. I've grown to like the look of the Kevlar cone and tweeter but my wife may want to keep the screens on most of the time. Of course, I'll have that nice tube glow from the VTLs as well but that's my sentimental side from the old days enjoying that.

Thank you, Mike. My wife is the same. Here's an idea ... take off the screens whilst listening at night time with all the lights off. Bliss, I tell you.

Enjoy the glow from your VTL's. :T

[MikeS]

Whilst there are a number of well recorded and mixed SACD's about, I rather tend to go for CD's. Easier to access too.

I was surprised by how poor my old classical recordings sounded compared to newer ones. I'll have to look into that but my immediate impression is that there are plenty of great new recordings around. I'll play with SACD to see what the difference is but I'm sure we'll be happy with any good new redbook. SACD seems to be mostly classical so maybe I'll shop there for the best of the best on my favorites when I'm looking for a treat.

Here's a little bit of info detailing what the Meridian player actually does when reading a redbook CD

I haven't seen anything similar on the Esoteric but it does seem to be aimed at good redbook reproduction as well. It seems to work when I listen to it!

Thank you, Mike. My wife is the same. Here's an idea ... take off the screens whilst listening at night time with all the lights off. Bliss, I tell you.

Yes, that's it. Do the screen covers make any difference on the BW? I know there's always a feeling that it must -- it just seems "wrong" to put anything between you and the music -- but I've never been convinced I can really hear any real difference with the speakers I've had.

Mike

[ShadowZA]

Yes, that's it. Do the screen covers make any difference on the BW? I know there's always a feeling that it must -- it just seems "wrong" to put anything between you and the music -- but I've never been convinced I can really hear any real difference with the speakers I've had.

I've noticed a very slight difference ... but then not always. Mostly I don't bother to take off the screens. Only do when I'm in a seriously focused kind of mood (during "lights-off" scenario) and want to pull out all the stops.

[MikeS]

I've noticed a very slight difference ... but then not always. Mostly I don't bother to take off the screens. Only do when I'm in a seriously focused kind of mood (during "lights-off" scenario) and want to pull out all the stops.

That's how I feel. It may be entirely psychological but it's important for the right atmosphere. It just feels right.

Mike