B&W 804 and Esoteic AI-10

[jveiga]

I am a new Portuguese member of this forum. I start my participation asking for your help about amp. upgrade. In my stereo system I have B&W 804s/NAD 372/Esoteric A-10. I have the chance to by an Esoteric AI-10 integrated amp. I had once the chance to listen it with esoteric Speakers. My impression was very good. The problem is that the amp is in UK and I have no chance to listing it with my 804. I wonder if anyone had that experience. Can you give me some advice on it?

Thanks,

Jveiga

[kmcheng]

I think it is a class D amp, just not sure if it also uses the ICE module.

I heard it when I was auditioning my 803D. The bigger issue, however, is whether you like the Class D sound.

Your local B&W dealer should at least have some Rotel class D amps to compare with the conventional Rotel class A/B amps. You may want to start there.

[altanpsx]

I demoed my 804s with an esoteric amp and cd player but I did not remeber the model. They were fantastic, open sound stage, highly analtical, and also very good low's. But combo was very expensive. So I sticked with my Classe Cap-2100. But I did not remember if the Esoteric was an Class D or whatever ? Hope this helps...

[Horacio]

I have not heard any Esoteric amplification, but would be cautious with class D + 804s, my main concern being the trebble and the aluminum tweeter. It might have the sound signature you like being very analytical (as mentioned above), but you might find the trebble on the harsh side too...depending on taste.

If you buy it and don't like it, can you sell it at about the same price you'll pay? If so, the best option might be to try it in your own system, with your room and your ears.

My 2 cents.

Horacio

PD: welcome to the forum, BTW

[jveiga]

B&W Vs Esoteric

I appreciate your comments. I will put the Esoteric purchase on standby until I have the chance to listen it with 804s. If you have about 3000 dollars to spend in an amplifier, what would be your choice?
Thanks,

João Veiga

[Horacio]

Joao,

Which amp is a very personal decision because the type of sound you like might not be the same as the type of sound preferred by the person making a suggestion. With that in mind, I'd say many people like Classe and McIntosh amps with B&W 800-series. Also Rowland and Levinson, but I have not heard either combination.

I myself spent about 3k USD on a McIntosh MC275, which is tubed (valves?). I love the combination with my 804s, and much prefer it to the Rotel RB1080 I previously had. Just a different league (and a different price too!). Tubes and the aluminum tweeter work nicely, I think. McIntosh also has the MC252, which is solid state and 250W per channel. Works nicely with the 804s as well, and is around the same price. Classe of course has something in that price range, but I myself prefer the McIntosh sound.

You might want to consider integrated amps too: McIntosh has the 2275 (tubes) and 6900 (solid state). Not sure how expensive these might be in Europe, though.

Anyway, the basic suggestion remains the same: try to audition for yourself, with CDs you know, and let your ears and wallet decide.

I hope this helps!

[jveiga]

B&W Vs Esoteric

Hi Horacio,
Certainly it helps. Since I am just a beginner on Hifi matters, I need help to build a short list with no mare than 5 amps before I start the auditions. My budget limitation don’t allowed me to buy better than the McIntosh 6300 (About 3300 €/4000 USD). Unless that I get some second hand bargain (like I have done with my B&W 804s). Another option is a pre-power Rotel 1082 and 1080. Those are affordable for me.
JV

[Horacio]

Joao,

I can certainly appreciate the situation. I am also very budget-constrained, plus I live in a place where buying and selling these is amost imposible. My take: play safe and focus only on what really matters to me (stereo and CD source).

McIntosh and Classe are safe bets. You might prefer either sound better, but can probably live with eiher one. They are relatively easy to come across by used (that is, compared to a specific Levinson or Rowland).

I don't know the MA6300. Any chance you can listen to it with B&W? I would seriously consider buying used, if safe of course.
You mentioned having Esoteric A-10. Did you mean an SA-10 CD player?

[Horacio]

Joao,

I forgot to mention I'm moving away from a Rotel RC1070 + RB1080. Two great pieces to match my previous B&W speakers, but I believe not on par with 804s. I actually still have them both: the RC1070 is the pre I'm using (and next in line for an upgrade), and I'm currently experimenting with biamplification with the RB1080 (for the bass). I'd say if you want to get separates, go for better ones. FWIW, my source is Rotel too (RCD1072).

[jveiga]

classé cp-47.5

Hi;

The Esoteric AI-10 is an integrated amp. I already have the CD player.

http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/esoteric11/10s.html

Today I had the offer of a pre classé cp-47.5 at an affordable price. Unfortunately the power was already sold. Do you think it is a good idea to make the audition with Rote 1080 power?

JV

[bigburner]

Hi jveiga,

I have an RB-1080 amp with an RC-1082 preamp. Previously I had an RC-1070 preamp. The RC-1082 was an improvement in all departments. A big advantage is that it has treble and bass controls. I need these for about half the recordings that I listen to, mainly to reduce the treble. I have aluminium tweeters in my B&W CDM9NT speakers and some recordings can sound a bit harsh. The RC-1082 has a defeat button so you can eliminate the tone controls from the circuit if you want to. The extra circuit is the reason that most audiophiles don't like tone controls. I think that tone controls are essential if you listen to a wide range of music. Another point - the addition of an external DAC also improved the sound quality of my system, including minimising the harshness of some recordings.

Nigel.

[Briz vegas]

Have you guys tried basic room treatment to manage the highs to your liking? Treble energy bouncing off near reflection points can be easily addressed with a wall hanging of similar. Very few photos on this site indicate any attempts at taming the room.

As one B&W dealer said to me recently, it is of little value upgrading components if you have not first looked at dialing in your room first. If I add damping to my front wall between the speakers it makes a huge difference to the amount of the treble energy relecting off that wall, and the quantity and clarity of the treble. I can even make my 804s sound too tame in the treble by leaning a couple of over sized cushions against the front wall. This is far more preferable than tone controls. As far as the look goes, there are plenty of great looking things you can hang on the wall, it does not have to detract from the room.

[bigburner]

This is far more preferable than tone controls. As far as the look goes, there are plenty of great looking things you can hang on the wall, it does not have to detract from the room.

Getting spousal approval for hanging interesting things on the walls is easier said than done.

Regardless of whether you can improve your room with treatments you still need tone controls because recordings vary so widely. Briz I have no doubt that you are the master of strategically placed cushions but even your skills don't match the control that those knobs provide (which you can defeat to maintain audiophile purity if you wish).

Nigel.

[Briz vegas]

Don't mean to highjack the thread but I would be interested in a couple of examples of recordings that are problematic. I also have a wide taste (I think) which strays far from audiophile material, including the Sex Pistols, the Saints, Portishead, Beck, Mozart, Bach, Blind Willie Johnson, Robert Johnson, Miles Davis, John Coltrane ,Hunters and Collectors, Midnight Oil, Love outside Andromeda and Yeah Yeah Yeahs, just to name a few. Its interesting listening to the Jimmy Hendrix Electric Lady Land on a really revealing system as I find you almost want dial in the system for each song as the sound varies from track to track, although I would never go that far.

A fellow audiophile buddy of mine recently was not happy with his treble which he thought was a bit harsh. I sat down and I just could not hear a problem at all. He was keen on the sound I was getting from my system because it was relatively warmer (which can be quite seductive), but I have recently taken a step away from that for a little more detail and tighter more energetic bass via cabling changes. I have been playing with room treatments to dial it in. I started with lots of damping of the front wall as I mentioned above but I have since dialed it back to something a little more "live" so that I have a semi dead front end.

This experience has made me aware of how peoples taste varies but also how you can fine tune the sound without spending a cent on audio gear.

[Horacio]

Briz,

I hear what you say. For the past year I have been reading a fair amount about room treatment, been doing lauyout changes and I'm looking to introduce room treatments. My room is the living room and to my wife the system sounds great as-is, so I understand where Nigel is coming from in therms of spousal approval! Yet, so many good things are said about it that I definitely want to try more.

But then Joao was asking about amplification. While room treatments and layout do affect the sound, in my room, in the same layout and with the same treatments (or lack thereof) the MC275 sounded much better than the RB1080...a lot less edgy and bright, yet very alive. While I acknowledge Nigel's comment about the RC1082 being much better than my RC1070, I am of the opinion the RB1080 is not at the same level as the 804s...in my system, with my ears and taste...

I don't pretend to be illuminated in these regards or to know what the absolut truth is. I'm just sharing my opinions and limited experience to try and help Joao navigate these sometimes confusing waters.

PS: I love Hendrix too!

[jveiga]

Getting spousal approval for hanging interesting things on the walls is easier said than done.

This I understand very much. Spousal happiness with Hifi system is something that once you conquered you must never lose it.
In what concerns with the building of my short list I found some attractive options with very interesting prices.
-Musical Fidelity A3.2CR + m250 (2 mono) (second hand and wonderful price 2500 USD). I did not get the chance to listening it so far;
-Classé CA-2100 (new, 3300 USD) sounds wonderful;
My doubt is about retard the classé option to have the chance to listen the MF. However, the risk is to lose the chance to get the Classé for half the price. Any one of you have experience with those MF?
Kind regards
JVeiga

[Briz vegas]

I have only heard the Classe cam400 monoblocks with 804s, but you have heard the Classe option you refer to. My Musical fidelity experience goes back a few years now. They go for a detailed sound and lots of power with their amps.

You can't rely on other peoples input here. You have heard the Classe and like it so it would be silly to go for an amp that has a different sound that you have not heard regardless of others comments here.

[jveiga]

Classé CA - 2100

Dear all;

Deal done. I will receive my new amp en the next days (I hope). Thanks for your help.

JVeiga

[Briz vegas]

Congratulations on the new amp. It will be interesting to hear your impressions when you get it home and in your own system/room.

[lvhung]

I think Rotel is just the same level with CM series
Owning B&W 804 you need more expensive electronics :P

[jveiga]

Classé CA - 2100

Hi;
I was out for a week and I am turn back with news about my system upgrade. First of all it is not an upgrade; it is a new system, much more expensive than I was thinking about. My CA 2100 is already working. It was a funny story (at first I was astonished) because I have done a confusion with CA – 2100 and CAP 2100. So I thought I was buying an integrated amp and I get a power amp. My first reaction was very distress but after a few minutes I see the situation as an opportunity. I tested the pre 47.5 but I didn’t get very impressed with it. So I decide to buy a CA 500. I will have it next week. Since I put it to work I will give you my first impressions.
Since my budgets is now very limited, can you recommend the best buy XLR IC?

Kind regards,

JV