B&W DM604s3, DM602s3 & LCR600's with Classé CAV-75

[Incognito]

I just loaned a Classé CAV-75 amp from someone, which I can buy for an ok price (€1500, the amp retailed here in 2002 for €3000). Sounds great, but I am not sure yet, since this amp quite fits my budget and I guess I would want to stay with it for a while.

What do you guys think, would this amp fit great with my set, or should I also consider also amps, if so, why?

(my preamp is a denon avr3805).

Thanks!

Kind regards,

Lucas.

[BlazeMaster]

I think you are looking at a complete different league of equipments for the 600s series, especially if you are only preamping with a Denon 3805. Have you looked into Rotels?

[JKalman]

Yeah, I would listen to BlazeMaster, unless you plan on upgrading those speakers in the not too distant future to something higher end.

[Incognito]

I have been looking into rotels, only thing is... the rotels are almost as expensive as the Classé... The RMB1075 retails here for 1500 and can be bought 2nd hand for 900-1000, the RMB1095 is more pricier than the Classé (new its 3000, 2nd hand 2000).

I think I am buying this amp anyway, it sounds really great, though it is kinda noticable that my dvd-player and pre-amp are the new bottlenecks now :P.

Good thing is, if I stay with B&W, my equipment can stay, because this Classé drives the 604's with ease (even unles its only 6 x 75 watt.. it's much powerful than other stronger amps I used before).

So thing is; if this is such a different leage, wouldnt it be worth the extra 400 euros (500 dollars)?

[JKalman]

So thing is; if this is such a different leage, wouldnt it be worth the extra 400 euros (500 dollars)?

It is likely worth it if you plan on upgrading the speakers and other equipment sooner rather than later, but if not, then you can use the money for other things, because other pieces in your system are likely going to keep it bottlenecked. Though, the Classe piece isn't exactly brand new equipment at this point anyway and it might actually end up being a bit of a bottleneck also, at which point you have to consider if it is over the hill in terms of electronics.

Doesn't the Denon AVR-3805 have amp channels built in? The 600 series should work well through just the Denon. Rotel is nice gear, and you have to keep in mind that you are paying for brand new equipment if you buy the Rotels, or maybe you are not, but if you are then your purchase includes warranties and the comfort of knowing no one messed with the gear in any negative way before you purchased the items. Your equipment won't be 4 years over the hill either.

I don't know if it would even be worth it to get the Rotels either. If you had 7 series speakers then the Rotels might be a worthwhile investment. Don't get me wrong, some of the 6 series speakers have won budget of the year awards, but they are budget items. While Rotels are known for giving near audiophile quality sound at a great price point, they might be wasted on the 6 series. Don't take my word or anyone else's word for it though, go demo everything and do some direct comparisons.

Considering the age on the Classe pieces, it is possible that the current Rotels are higher quality due to decreasing costs of electronics and circuitry (etc) as they have saturated the markets over time. Further, considering that the B&W Group owns both Classe and Rotel, a lot of the technology in the older Classe equipment might be in the new Rotel pieces at this point. I personally think you would gain the most by upgrading the speakers and then purchasing Rotel gear, my dealer was helpful and let me trade my 7 series speakers for higher quality ones when I asked if there were any way I could work something out.

The best way to figure this all out, and to test my suggestions, is to go try out the gear yourself with your setup. I am just giving my opinion based on my perception of how the mid-high end markets work, and based on my knowledge of some of the equipment, some of which I unfortunately haven't had the pleasure of demoing. I hope I am giving you useful things to consider while making your decision so that you are as informed as possible. Ultimately, it is up to you whether you perceive a difference between the Denon AVR-3805, Class CAV-75 and comparably priced Rotel gear.

[Incognito]

Thanks for your reply Jeff.

Although I know your intentions are good, I don't agree with you on a couple of things.
Though the 6-series might be the budget series, I have the 604's as fronts (which retail for 650 euros a piece), so I wouldnt exactly call these very budget. Yes it is budget in comparance to the 802D's you are playing with, but they still use the Nautilus tweater and the kevlar midrange (and have the same 3ohm dip), they are capable of something (and they arent as budget as the 600's or 601's).

Let me tell you my story in hi-fi for so far:
I have used the Denon for a while, but I wasnt really satisfied with the sound, so I went auditioning for a power amp, because the flexibility of the Denon really appealed to me. I have auditioned a couple of Rotel amps then, they really appealed to me, but since they were a bit over my budget then, I bought 5 second hand Vincent monoblocks. This was a big improvement over the Denon, lots of detail came up, bass was tighter, mid-range clearer, just all better, though, they were very analytical, a bit canny sounding, so I stayed with it for a while and got tired of it, so, thats where I am now, looking for a new amp.

So now I found this amp 2nd hand from it's first owner, and it really is a beauty. Since I did like the sound of Rotels in the past, I went to my dealer and auditioned one again yesterday (a RB-1080), and I must say, the Classé blew it away, it really is, like you said, in a whole different league, bass is much tighter, highs are softer, mids are a bit warm and the best of all the depth/ soundstaging is great, even with the Denon as a pre-amp (though, I must say, pure direct mode makes a huge difference over surround sound, thats a fact). The Rotel I found rather sloppy with bass and a bit edgy on the highs from time to time (in comparance to the classé of course).

In the meanwhile I chose to buy the Classé. The Classé is a very fine piece of machienery and is only 3 years old. Since the latest Rotel models have been around for a while already too, I don't think you are right concerning the fact that the Rotels have the same technology as the Classé has. Also, this amp retails for 3000 euros, lets make it 3000 dollars for your eaze (for 6 * 75 watts), do you really think you can fit the same quality in a similar rotel amp that costs half of this? Maybe you should audition a Classé too soon , because it doesnt really sounds like you have done that before...

Yes, I know the price of the Classé is a bit high (alas, the RMB1075 is cheaper, but then again, the RMB1075 won't perform like the RB1080...), but I notice that the speakers sound that much better with the Classé that I still think it is justified, plus, like you said, there is room to upgrade my speakers, or maybe even to tweak these a bit..

Anyway, time to move on to a better pre-amp and a cd/dvd-player .

Thanks for your advice/ opinion on this matter, though I don't agree with you in all the matters you pointed out, it's still appreciated.

[JKalman]

Thanks for your reply Jeff.

Although I know your intentions are good, I don't agree with you on a couple of things.
Though the 6-series might be the budget series, I have the 604's as fronts (which retail for 650 euros a piece), so I wouldnt exactly call these very budget. Yes it is budget in comparance to the 802D's you are playing with, but they still use the Nautilus tweater and the kevlar midrange (and have the same 3ohm dip), they are capable of something (and they arent as budget as the 600's or 601's).

Everything is relative, my point is that these are budget speakers relative to the B&W lines, and relative to how I rate speakers. I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

So now I found this amp 2nd hand from it's first owner, and it really is a beauty. Since I did like the sound of Rotels in the past, I went to my dealer and auditioned one again yesterday (a RB-1080), and I must say, the Classé blew it away, it really is, like you said, in a whole different league, bass is much tighter, highs are softer, mids are a bit warm and the best of all the depth/ soundstaging is great, even with the Denon as a pre-amp (though, I must say, pure direct mode makes a huge difference over surround sound, thats a fact). The Rotel I found rather sloppy with bass and a bit edgy on the highs from time to time (in comparance to the classé of course).

In the meanwhile I chose to buy the Classé. The Classé is a very fine piece of machienery and is only 3 years old. Since the latest Rotel models have been around for a while already too, I don't think you are right concerning the fact that the Rotels have the same technology as the Classé has. Also, this amp retails for 3000 euros, lets make it 3000 dollars for your eaze (for 6 * 75 watts), do you really think you can fit the same quality in a similar rotel amp that costs half of this? Maybe you should audition a Classé too soon , because it doesnt really sounds like you have done that before...

I think you misunderstood what I said in my post. Here is what I said. I've bolded the statements you missed. "Considering the age on the Classe pieces, it is possible that the current Rotels are higher quality due to decreasing costs of electronics and circuitry (etc) as they have saturated the markets over time. Further, considering that the B&W Group owns both Classe and Rotel, a lot of the technology in the older Classe equipment might be in the new Rotel pieces at this point." I'm pointing this out because I don't like to be paraphrased when the paraphrasing is not what I stated, especially when the incorrect assumption is used in a way to make me appear ignorant, e.g. "do you really think you can fit the same quality in a similar rotel amp that costs half of this? Maybe you should audition a Classé too soon , because it doesnt really sounds like you have done that before..."

Thanks for your advice/ opinion on this matter, though I don't agree with you in all the matters you pointed out, it's still appreciated

I still don't agree with you. If you notice that much of a difference between those amps with those speakers, all the power to you. I personally don't buy into the brand name is always a certain flavor philosophy, especially if the speakers aren't capable of bringing out the best in a piece of equipment (I'm not saying yours are not capable).

To me it is common sense that older Classe technology will eventually be used in Rotel gear, perhaps not these particular two pieces we have been discussing, though I bet they share some design aesthetics. It would be a terrible business model for B&W group to throw away all of Classe's older technology when the B&W group needs those profits aquired through previous R&D expenditure to survive. Take a look at how the R&D trickles down every generation between B&W speaker lines if you don't believe it. It is also common knowledge that B&W Group has been moving their design people around between all their companies, I would think there is a reason for that.

Again you misrepresented me when you said, "I don't think you are right concerning the fact that the Rotels have the same technology as the Classé has. Also, this amp retails for 3000 euros, lets make it 3000 dollars for your eaze (for 6 * 75 watts), do you really think you can fit the same quality in a similar rotel amp that costs half of this?" I didn't say that. I said, "Further, considering that the B&W Group owns both Classe and Rotel, a lot of the technology in the older Classe equipment might be in the new Rotel pieces at this point." Cost of chips and electronic components in specific configurations decline rapidly once a company aquires the profits to counteract the expenditure of R&D, this allows them to use older technologies at a lesser cost since most of the R&D was taken care of in the initial R&D investment. It is this business paradigm which allows Rotel to offer the technology it offers at the price it offers it at. I specifically stated "might be" (in italics above) because I didn't (and still don't) know the relative ages of these two pieces of equipment, though I never even stated that these two particular components share the same exact technology, my statement was more generalized to all their components.

For stereo and multi-channel music, I only use bypass modes on my Bryston SP1.7. :W

Glad you like the amp you chose, I hope you enjoy it. :T

[worldys]

Going back to the original question. I had the same exact B&W set with a classe ssp 25 and the cav75 and thought the classe gear did a wonderful job bringing out the potential of the speakers. I don't listen at very loud volumes and had a good sub to give the adequate oomf when needed so the 75 watts was quite sufficient. I later bought a krell hts2/showcase 5 combo to replace the classe gear, just because I could, but in the end regretted it because although the krell system was more powerful, the classe system was smoother and more neutral. Bottom line, my opinion is to go for the cav75 if that is within your budget.

[Incognito]

Thanks for your reply! Now I don't have the ssp25 yet, but I totally agree with you! These speakers have much more potential than it seems when you are driving them with a budget receiver. Now I listen to loud volumes from time to time too, and I must say, the power is sufficient for me, I haven't got this amp to clip yet, keeps on sounding great , and it has much more control than the monoblocks (125w 8ohm, 200w 4ohm) I had before the Classé. I am very happy with the decision to buy the amp and I think my speakers will find a new owner sooner than my Classé will :P! Love the amp, and I think it will be sufficient (at first) to drive (as an example) the 703's too.

Actually the Denon 3805 works surprisingly good on this system as a pro, so I might stick to that for a while (let's just wait until I walk into a nice secondhand ssp25 :P). Then a seperate cd-player, because the dvd2910 just isnt as great with stereo as it is with surround/ movies. I guess that this system will stay for a while until I have bigger cash to spent; then I guess that the 703 (or maybe even 803/804's), might be the upgrade.

For the Classé CAV75, I have no doubt anymore!

Thanks!

Lucas

[ml360]

I have a classe cav-75 and a pair of cam-200's operated by a rotel 1068 processor thru martin logan speakers.I must tell you that the cav-75 sounds very nice.