803Ds delivered - have to decide on cables soon (power cables for Monoblock amps)

[indiebands]

My 803Ds were delivered on Tuesday and I have been having a good time during the burn in period (not sure neighbors can say the same). My local stereo guy has recommended speaker and interconnect cables which seem like a good fit to me. However, he's also installed a pair of fat power cables for each of my monoblock Vincent 995 amps.

I did read the "cable rules" thread, but I wondered generally what people's view is on the power cable question. Right now those cables are plugged into a $2 plastic european extension cord (which come to think of it should probably be upgraded).

On Tuesday, I have to make some decisions about cables, so I thought I'd see if people have seen significant benefits from high end power cables for amps. On Tuesday I will be able to swap in and out the supplied cables with the high end ones, so I'll be able to listen for differences, but I'd be happy to be biased by your experiences. Thanks in advance.

[Briz vegas]

:a> :a> :hb

Duck for cover on this one.

If this is not the most contentious issue in hifi it would have to be pretty darn close.

I have found that power cables, and expensive ones at that, have allowed me to optimise the performance of all my components. I am likely to be upgrading the one on my amp, although this is stlll subject to an audition, I'm listening to Sarah Blasko on the old hifi right now and its sounding so good that I am scared to change anything. The upcoming audition over a number of days is the only way to a decision with cables. Its just way way too personal to leave it up to people on the forums most of whom are not even talking from personal experience.

I use Nordost Vishnu currently but am considering a Brahma after hearing good things in my setup last weekend using that cable, although most of the benefit seemed to be with big orchestral pieces. It gave my amp a bit more oomph. Icing on the cake as I am already getting exception results from my "humble" 804s IMHO.

PS and the power cables need to go direct into the wall socket for best results, especially for the power amp.

[htsteve]

indiebands,

This is definitely an opinionated subject. Ask 10 people about it and you'll get 10 opinions, some very passionate.

As for me, I've used everything from basic to high end power cables. Some of the more expensive kinds were decent, some didn't do much for me and some definitely made a noticable improvement (a difference my wife also noticed).

The best plan is the one you are undertaking, which is to try several and see what you like best. That's what I did and am happy with where I am.

One thing to consider is to buy used higher end power cords. I've done this with excellent results.

I also agree with briz vegas that big power amps go directly to the wall. My Macs do.


Hope this helps. And have fun auditioning.

[William]

If you want factual improvement in sound then you should take the money and buy 802D's and/or do some room acoustic treatments. Electrons can't read the expensive designer labels that are around the copper they travel through.

[ray5]

Someone(I can't recall who) recently posted this link to an article which I read with interest. I have no experience in high end audio stuff and since we are on the topic of cables would like to see what you feel about this article? Here is the link. Thanks,
Ray

http://www.theaudiocritic.com/downloads/article_1.pdf

[Aussie Geoff]

Just a friendly reminder (in advance). Historically these threads have often got way out of hand... With people insulting each other etc...

Sooo.. Please PLEASE lets not let this get in any way personal

Geoff

[btf1980]

Use the power cable that came with your amps. 8)

[dknightd]

I did read the "cable rules" thread, but I wondered generally what people's view is on the power cable question. Right now those cables are plugged into a $2 plastic european extension cord (which come to think of it should probably be upgraded).

I'm reluctant to respond to this thread. But I will because you are using an extension cord. It is very important that any extension cord you use is rated to carry the load you are using it for. Surge strips, outlet strips, extension cords, and so on, can be very handy, but they should be rated for a higher capacity than the load will draw. This is a safety issue. If your wall sockets are very old, and you will be drawing close to their capacity, consider replacing them with nice new ones (sometimes old outlets can gather enough oxidation/dirt to not make a clean contact - then you can get sparks, heat generation, and a potential fire)

My experience is that any decent quality audio component comes with an adequate power cord. I will not comment of the difference that a power cord might make to sound quality because I do not have the experience to comment - my guess is the difference should be zero, but I could be wrong, it is just a guess. If you think it might make a difference then by all means try it and pick your favorite.

[indiebands]

Thanks to all for your feedback. I don't want to start any fires here (especially as a newbie), so thanks for the good responses. I appreciate the perspective and the different views. I will absolutely replace/eliminate the extension cord. As for the rest, I'll give it a listen and see if I hear a measurable difference. Cheers!

[wettou]

Someone(I can't recall who) recently posted this link to an article which I read with interest. I have no experience in high end audio stuff and since we are on the topic of cables would like to see what you feel about this article? Here is the link. Thanks,
Ray
http://www.theaudiocritic.com/downloads/article_1.pdf

Yes the fallacy of cables :rofl:

[htsteve]

Thanks to all for your feedback. I don't want to start any fires here (especially as a newbie), so thanks for the good responses. I appreciate the perspective and the different views. I will absolutely replace/eliminate the extension cord. As for the rest, I'll give it a listen and see if I hear a measurable difference. Cheers!

This is the best plan of all. Your ears will decide.

[rmht]

Hi

I am a long time lurker and recovering av professional that reads these sort of threads with perverse interest and one of the above responses caught my passion......



If you are unwilling or incapable to acoustically treat your listening room all "tweaks" won't matter. The energy in the corners and first reflections blow up real sound faster than any inferior interconnect or power cord.

meh...

[rmht]

But use rated power cords obviously.........and that is 13 posts in three years.

[Briz vegas]

hello rmht .....thats 981 posts in 4 years for me. Is this a competition for limited posting (I think I lost that one) or did you freak out when you got to post 12 and it took 3 years and this topic to motivate you to take the plunge and do number 13. For added impact I think you should have picked one of the recent black fridays to post number 13. (just pulling your leg)

By the way, I agree about the room, although domestic circumstances impact on what most folks can do. It pays to play with all the variables to understand what has a significant impact and what does not.

[Alaric]

Oooooh boy. Crap components will probably give you crap results. Your cables are a component. Worst case scenario? You buy good cables and your hearing has crapped to the point you can't hear a difference-but now you know you're getting every dollars' worth from your cables. Now buy some speakers.
Yeah , it never ends.....

[aweil]

P = V * I.

V = I * R.

Every question in this thread concerning power cables can be answered by interpretation of those two equations.

[Briz vegas]

:E :T :roll: :W ;x( :rofl: :Z :lol: :

Surely this is only part of the equation. As an analogy, measuring the gobal economic crisis base on quarterly building approvals would only give us part of the story.

.

[rmht]

actually briz I was shocked I had posted so few times considering how often I visit


what is wrong with easter for post 13 anyway?

And thank you for reminding me I am of the fortunate few that have a listening room completely to myself even I am happily married....

[Briz vegas]

actually briz I was shocked I had posted so few times considering how often I visit


what is wrong with easter for post 13 anyway?

And thank you for reminding me I am of the fortunate few that have a listening room completely to myself even I am happily married....

I really was just pulling your leg. I figured you should go for maximum impact for the big 13.

[mjb]

On Tuesday, I have to make some decisions about cables, so I thought I'd see if people have seen significant benefits from high end power cables for amps. On Tuesday I will be able to swap in and out the supplied cables with the high end ones, so I'll be able to listen for differences, but I'd be happy to be biased by your experiences. Thanks in advance.

If you upgrade your power cables, don't forget to upgrade the run to the distribution panel, and the sub-station. I've also heard the sound can be improved if you use electricity generated by coal with a high carbon/low oxygen content. Nah, I don't think so.

I agree with other posters: the electrons can't read the label, but ohms law says they'll prefer the path of least resistance... so make sure all power components/cables are suitably chunky and capable of supporting the full load. Never use a breaker rated higher than the cable fed from it.

[aweil]

My point: Power = Voltage * Current. At higher voltages, you need less current to produce the power you want, which is precisely the reason that power distribution is done at extremely high voltages, to minimize I^2*R losses (that equals power if you do the math using the other equation that I posted). Thus, the diameter of conductor (Resistance = rho*length/Cross sectional Area) power cable is less important than that, say, of your speaker to amplifier cable. In any case, you can't do anything about the wiring in your walls or back to the power station. It is my opinion that the 3 feet of wire between your wall socket and amplifier/receiver/CD player/Record player has much less influence on the overall electrical characteristics than the miles of electrical conductor back to the substation. In any case, it's the job of the power supplies in your amp/reciever/CD player/record player to convert the AC voltage to a number of DC voltages in such a way that it is insensitive to variations in AC voltage magnitude. If you have quality electronics with quality power supply designs and implementations and quality DC voltage rail regulation, you shouldn't be able to discern any difference in audio quality as a result of AC power cord characteristics. Yes, you can use 20 gauge wire for your AC power cord and prove me wrong, but I suspect they will go up in flames before the first chorus of your favorite song. :T

[Relentless]

I love how these threads always go the way of science vrs ear. Whenever I got in this argument with a doubter about how cables have there own sound I could prove to them in my system with a different pair of $1000 interconects. Acoustic Zen Silver Reference and Cardas Golden Reference. Both very good cables with great reviews, but sound different. The AZ cable in my system sounds alive and fast, then switch to the Cardas and everyone agreed that it was like there were blankets put over the speakers. If you listened to the Cardas cable for a while you would adjust to it and it would sound good to you in about a week, but hearing them one after the other you can hear the difference. For the record I am not using either of these interconnects in my system anymore and not suggesting you go out and buy them, these are just examples of a bright(not in a bad way) cable and a warm cable.

[aweil]

I love how these threads always go the way of science vrs ear. Whenever I got in this argument with a doubter about how cables have there own sound I could prove to them in my system with a different pair of $1000 interconects. Acoustic Zen Silver Reference and Cardas Golden Reference. Both very good cables with great reviews, but sound different. The AZ cable in my system sounds alive and fast, then switch to the Cardas and everyone agreed that it was like there were blankets put over the speakers. If you listened to the Cardas cable for a while you would adjust to it and it would sound good to you in about a week, but hearing them one after the other you can hear the difference. For the record I am not using either of these interconnects in my system anymore and not suggesting you go out and buy them, these are just examples of a bright(not in a bad way) cable and a warm cable.

I never addressed the interconnect or amplifier to speaker cables, it is possible to materially affect the sound with these with proper selection. I was merely talking about fancy power cables for your AC power supply...

[Relentless]

Power cables do the same thing. Music is just manipulated electricity until it hits the speakers and turned into sound. The first time your system touches the electricity is the wall. Engineers will always state that the cable is a cable and it does not change anything but I believe it is the dielectric(shielding) that causes the differences.

[aweil]

Power cables do the same thing. Music is just manipulated electricity until it hits the speakers and turned into sound. The first time your system touches the electricity is the wall. Engineers will always state that the cable is a cable and it does not change anything but I believe it is the dielectric(shielding) that causes the differences.

I see I'm not going to change your mind. I AM an electrical engineer and I understand power supply and amplifier design and the associated tradeoffs. Why not put fancy air purifiers in your listening room to keep the percentages of nitrogen, oxygen, etc. constant? Once the speaker cone moves the sound is produced via an acoustic pressure wave. Why not keep the medium of propagation as constant as possible so that the sound isn't disturbed? If your buddy next to you is smoking a cigar the smoke particles emitted into the air (again, medium of sound propagation from speakers to your ears) will affect how the sound is heard! Don't forget the humidifier to keep that variable constant as well!

Again, why do you believe that the 1-3' of fancy cable you buy from AC socket to your amplifier will induce any perceivable change when it's fighting MILES of the power company's wiring? Do you think that the power company was founded by audiophiles who put optimum power distribution cable onto the grid, and you're going to destroy that delicate balance?

[Relentless]

I am glad we can agree to disagree in a civil manner. This is an ongoing argument that always breaks down to someone telling someone what they do or do not hear. The best advice was already given, try different things and if you hear an improvement and the improvement is worth the cost to you keep it or otherwise just save your money. ..... Oh yea to answer your question, you cant do anything about the power fed to your house but as I stated the first part of your system is the power cord. I actually have a power re-generator that takes the power from the wall converts it filters it and reproduces its own clean power.

[aweil]

I am glad we can agree to disagree in a civil manner. This is an ongoing argument that always breaks down to someone telling someone what they do or do not hear. The best advice was already given, try different things and if you hear an improvement and the improvement is worth the cost to you keep it or otherwise just save your money.

If I can't hear a difference perhaps I could call myself lucky that I get to hold onto some of my extra cash. Sometimes I think that some of my friends who don't "get it" and can't hear the difference when it comes to hifi are luckier than I as they don't have to spend so much on stereo equipment! lol

But seriously, has anyone considered a chamber in which the air is treated? Would it or could it make a difference? I came up with it in jest, but in fact it is part of the chain of signal transmission from media to your brain. Media to processor to amplifier to speaker to air to ear. If we are trying to optimize all nonidealities why not consider that one? If not a huge factor in acoustic wave propogation itself, would humidity affect speaker efficiency in converting electrical energy to acoustic energy?

[mjb]

So this thread has also gone the way of all cable threads - they should all just be nipped at birth.

[1oldguy]

If I can't hear a difference perhaps I could call myself lucky that I get to hold onto some of my extra cash. Sometimes I think that some of my friends who don't "get it" and can't hear the difference when it comes to hifi are luckier than I as they don't have to spend so much on stereo equipment! lol

But seriously, has anyone considered a chamber in which the air is treated? Would it or could it make a difference? I came up with it in jest, but in fact it is part of the chain of signal transmission from media to your brain. Media to processor to amplifier to speaker to air to ear. If we are trying to optimize all nonidealities why not consider that one? If not a huge factor in acoustic wave propogation itself, would humidity affect speaker efficiency in converting electrical energy to acoustic energy?

Well Humidity would play apart.........To what extent I can't say.But it does play a part that I know.In space there is no sound because sound cant travel.Llike the Ripples in a pond ,you have no Ripples if you have no water.When it's raining have you ever noticed how traffic sounds so much louder...It because of resistance or lack of because .....the sound travels in waves as well all know.Sound when your swimming is much louder,Under water of course.I know this may not quite answer your question in the fullest seance but hey I'm trying:}
I have an acoustic guitar that over the years being near the kitchen has gotten heaver soaking up the moisture.
As for the electrical side of your question I would tend to agree that there would be some kind of variance.But again has to how much I would have to leave that for someone more experience than I.

[jcocomo]

Hi,
I made my own (DIY) ac mains power cable and they sound great and saved lots of $. Made an improvement anywhere I used them. If your handy with basic wiring and can follow instructions go here http://www.venhaus1.com/diymains.html
Read over what Chris VenHaus has written in great detail.

John...

[SPACEMANRICK]

If you want factual improvement in sound then you should take the money and buy 802D's and/or do some room acoustic treatments. Electrons can't read the expensive designer labels that are around the copper they travel through.

I am in total agreement, save the money on the cables and upgrade to 802D's or go for some acoustic room treatments :W

[bigburner]

indiebands, copper is copper is copper.

On the other hand, if you genuinely believe that spending lots of money on power cables will improve the quality of the sound then it will. That's the beauty of our hobby.

Nigel.

[MikeFL52]

P = V * I.

V = I * R.

Every question in this thread concerning power cables can be answered by interpretation of those two equations.

Actually this is not quite true:

V=IZ where Z is the impedence and phi (voltage) -phi (current) is the phase amount by which the current lags the voltage for an alternating current system.

Bottom line is that Impedence is just as important for AC circuitry as Resistance is for DC circuitry.

Then there is Inductance (both self and coupled) which is why you should not loop cables to keep them neat and tidy.

I am not trying to say that buying expensive cables does or does not give you a benefit, but that how the cable is constructed impacts more than can be characterized by Ohm's Law.

[Race Car Driver]

I use a copper coat hanger for my speaker cable.

[Relentless]

I use a copper coat hanger for my speaker cable.

I am sure you are using aluminum foil for RCA connections between those vintage Sony components also :lol:

[aweil]

Actually this is not quite true:

V=IZ where Z is the impedence and phi (voltage) -phi (current) is the phase amount by which the current lags the voltage for an alternating current system.

Bottom line is that Impedence is just as important for AC circuitry as Resistance is for DC circuitry.

Then there is Inductance (both self and coupled) which is why you should not loop cables to keep them neat and tidy.

I am not trying to say that buying expensive cables does or does not give you a benefit, but that how the cable is constructed impacts more than can be characterized by Ohm's Law.

My presentation was for the case where power factor = 1. Trying to keep it simple enough for the average person here to understand. The only motivation was to show that at higher voltages you need less current to maintain the same power transfer, and thus wire impedance is less of an issue. I agree, if your load is reactive enough then that could potentially shoot that argument to hell, but I was assuming an ideal resistive load for demonstration purposes.

[Aussie Geoff]

Keep being strong everone :P

Hi,

This thread has teattered on the edge a few times but had been pulled back... So its good to see everone being strong and not letting anything become personal

Thanks!!!

[indiebands]

Thanks for all the advice

Hi,

This thread has teattered on the edge a few times but had been pulled back... So its good to see everone being strong and not letting anything become personal

Thanks!!!

Hi All,

Thanks again for all the information and perspective on both sides of this question. I look forward to being able to AB test soon and will report back later.

Incidentally, does shielding make any difference in power cables or does the transformer in the electronics remove any RF interference brought in from the cable?

Cheers!

[Relentless]

I am getting 7.0THD coming into the PPP and 0.4THD coming out. That thing is worth every penny. I am going to audition some power cords for it and see if they filter some of the distortion coming from the wall, and I can see if they allow more input voltage than the stock cord. I doubt the stock cord is bottle-necking the volts but we will see.

[htsteve]

Incidentally, does shielding make any difference in power cables or does the transformer in the electronics remove any RF interference brought in from the cable?

Cheers!

indiebands,

My personal experience has been that better shielding on cables, whether they are speaker cables or power cords, etc., does make an improvement in the system. My trick has been to evaluate them to see if they meet my own price-performance criteria.

You are doing the correct thing in auditioning them side by side.


Powers supplies in gear do go a long way to making a system quiet, but I've found a total system approach of quality components (speakers, gear cables) has worked best for me.



Hope this helps.

[Antus]

cables do make a difference, but they are relatively small difference. for instance, if you buy a $1000 amp with $500 cable, it "usually" won't sound better than $1500 amp.

the general rule is to spend 10% of ur budget on cables.

[kmcheng]

cables do make a difference, but they are relatively small difference. for instance, if you buy a $1000 amp with $500 cable, it "usually" won't sound better than $1500 amp.

the general rule is to spend 10% of ur budget on cables.

Or if you go with Blue Jeans then even 10% will be too much. Of course, Blue Jeans does not make power cables. However, I seriously doubt that the manufacturers would use a subpar stock power cable that would bottleneck
the equipment's performance.

[Relentless]

cables do make a difference, but they are relatively small difference. for instance, if you buy a $1000 amp with $500 cable, it "usually" won't sound better than $1500 amp.

the general rule is to spend 10% of ur budget on cables.

I have to agree.... Spend the money on the best equipment you can afford first, but when you have the best sounding stuff to your ears all around(IMO the speakers first) and believe me it can costs more than a BMW you can start looking at cables and you will hear a difference in a system that is very sensitive to changes in the chain.

Here is a question.... if you buy an expensive piece or cable and to you it sounds better, even if it is just a little or possibly just in your head, but you can afford it and it makes you happy...... Is it worth the money?

Unfortunately in this audio game we play, once you get to a certain level of equipment the cost to improvement ratio skyrockets.

[1oldguy]

I agree Relentless ........With this system I am building I plan on being somewhat reasonable when it comes to cables.Of course for those who can buy what they want then why not.
But I figure for most we don't have the mega expensive cables.I saw one power cord that was 15,000.00 for one.That's fine if money is no object,for me it is.But hey different strokes for different folks.

[Briz vegas]

power cables :Z