Suggest a Stereo Receiver for B&W 683's

[Opus007]

Not looking for a pre/amp combo.Looking to buy a good high current 2 channel stereo receiver.For 683's music only.I have tried the Rotel 1057 receiver -Rotel RB1080 200Watt x 2 combo and though it was ok...it is not the sound I am looking for.Was bright in my opinion.Looking for a no frills (no video switching) stereo receiver that would pair with the B&W's.
I have a Sony 4300 ES for ht but it sucks for music.Currently I have the 683's powered by a vintage Pioneer SX-780 and for only 45watts per channel I can barely turn it up 1/8 of the way in the fear of blowing my speakers.To me the pioneer has more punch and wieght to the music.I have a niles 2 receiver speaker switch so I can switch between 2 receivers.
My main music source is a vintage Denon DCD-1400 cd player.Although the pioneer powers the B&W's very nicely and removes any brightness from the B&W's and Denon I want to get a more updated receiver with around the same warm sounding quality as the Pioneer.I looked at the Outlaw 2 channel and Nad (although I think they do video switching)online but have no experience with them and not sure at there modest wattage ratings that they would be suffecent to power the B&W's like the pioneer because as we all know They Do Not Make Them Like They Use To.Any thoughts is appreciated.Thanks.

[H.T.C]

Checkout some harmon kardon or marantz receivers first but i dont think they will have 200 watts per channel stereo like rotel does.

You could go 2-channel for more power with a intergrated amplifier instead and separate tuner for radio and music,

[littlesaint]

It sounds like you'd want an integrated amp over a "receiver". I love the NAD stuff in this area. High current designs. The C372 is very good. The M3 is nice (dual mono), but I think the older C-series designs are better.

[Russ L]

For 2 channel spend your money on amp instead of amp and tuner etc.packaged in a receiver. Unless you need optical in? Pure amp = more bang for $
There are very few 2 channel only receivers being made these days so options very limited. They are usually on the lower end sound quality wise.

[Opus007]

I think something along the line of the NAD-C372 is what I am looking for.I do not need a tuner or any other stuff built in.
But this is what concerns me from the Nad web site:
Important Advice for C272/C372 Owners
"We have seen a small number of filter capacitor failures in and C372/C272 that we would like to bring to your attention. While the actual number of affected units is extremely small (about a dozen units over the last 5 years), the failure is quite spectacular. The problem is that one of the main filter capacitors overheats and blows open. There is a flash and smoke and in some cases the top cover paint melts. This can be alarming as there is an electrical burning smell. In all cases to date, the safety measures built into NAD products have contained the damage to the unit itself"
I really like the part where the failure is spectaular. ;x(

[newguy987]

Stay away from Nad if you can, the dealer I go through is dropping Nad. The reason being is faulty equipment and terrible service(no parts). What is your budget? Have you tried/seen anything by "Sim Audio" They make very good gear if you can afford it. Also cheaper would be something like arcam. My two cents...

[Opus007]

Just got done researching the nad c372 and reading reveiws.Seems they are mixed with the majority going towards ..Do NOt Buy.
So still in search.My budget is 700.00 and under.I am even open to a used integrated.Any mor e thoughts.This is for music only.As for Harmon Kardon as someone suggested I have heard nothing good there.Thanks.

[Opus007]

What about this "Rega Mira Integrated Amplifier" .It is used but could pick up for around 600.Only 60 watts per channel though.Any thoughts?

[Russ L]

The problem is that one of the main filter capacitors overheats and blows open. There is a flash and smoke and in some cases the top cover paint melts. This can be alarming as there is an electrical burning smell. In all cases to date, the safety measures built into NAD products have contained the damage to the unit itself"
I really like the part where the failure is spectaular. ;x(

:lol: Thats not really what I meant when I said an integrated would give you "more bang for the $" :E

[btf1980]

Outlaw makes a pretty good stereo receiver.

A pic of the Outlaw - RR-2150

http://www.musicdirect.com/product/83787

[Opus007]

How about this .
Musical Fidelity A3.5
150 Watts per channel into 8 Ohms (22dBW), 240 Watts per channel into 4 Ohms
Anyone have this paired with the B&W's

[Grasynoll]

I've been using a C372 with a pair of 805S' for 3 years and its a great amp, powerful and neutral. The reviews I've read on the C372 have been quite positive.

[littlesaint]

The C372 problems are usually due to poor ventilation. High current designs run very warm and without enough ventilation, component failure.

If it spooks you though, no reason to go that way.

[Opus007]

I have set up a demo fo a Musical Fidelty A3.5 next weekend.http://www.musicalfidelity.com/produ...5int_feat.html As for reviews all are postive that I have read.They also carry Nad and will demo it also.
A question about the Musical Fidelity.It says it has ht direct.Can someone tell me what this means:
However, the HT DIRECT sockets are intended for home theatre use. When selected, they are routed inside the A3.5 directly to the power amplifier circuit, which is not controlled by the volume adjustment.
Do not therefore connect these sockets to a source without its own volume control.
This from a review of Musical Fidelity 3.5:
Musical Fidelity A3.5: timing spot on, bass control exactly what i wanted, lets that bass crumble and bounce! treble gorgeous, held massive shostakovich climax without fault at staggering volume level. Snap? Snap? it was like playing cards with a 5 year old! hot damn, those midbass drums just tearing the skin......vocals perfect, airy, sweet, controlled, grabbing all the nuances of voice and letting you hear them

[Briz vegas]

If, like me, you want a great amp for two channel but also need to integrate it with a HT system using the same front 2 speakers, then the HT Direct is almost an essential feature.

MF's reputation is for a more detailed analytical sound, they are not known for being warm anyway. With the right cables it should work fine (not talking big dollars here, just keep in mind that if an amp gets you there 90%, using the right cable can fine tune the sound, using the wrong one can put you back to 80% IMHO.....and many others think it makes "squat" difference so try for yourself and keep inmind what you are using at home)

[Opus007]

If, like me, you want a great amp for two channel but also need to integrate it with a HT system using the same front 2 speakers, then the HT Direct is almost an essential feature.

MF's reputation is for a more detailed analytical sound, they are not known for being warm anyway. With the right cables it should work fine (not talking big dollars here, just keep in mind that if an amp gets you there 90%, using the right cable can fine tune the sound, using the wrong one can put you back to 80% IMHO.....and many others think it makes "squat" difference so try for yourself and keep inmind what you are using at home)

Yes I would like a great amp.Have you heard the MF amp?When you say analytical are you refering to bright as I do not want a bright amp.Thanks.

[Briz vegas]

I have heard MF amps with 700 series but that was back when I was buying my 705 which were my fronts but have since moved to the back. At the time I was very impressed. More recently I have had a MF DAC visit my system, and that was very detailed.

[Antus]

you can pick up a Denon or Marantz integrated amp for a good price. (both brand are actually the same company) they have worm sound and usually pair well with B&W.

683 need at least 100W to sound it's best. 150W would be perfect, but 60-80W are usually not enough.

[dknightd]

I don't understand, you have a receiver that works and you like. It seems it delivers everything you want. So why do you feel the desire to change it?

[Opus007]

Yes I have one that I like ....but it could be better.Plus it is only 45 wpc.Also even though it does have the slam I like at times can be very muddled and lacking clarity.Plus I have 2 receivers running through a switch box.With the MF A3.5 I can eliminate the switch box with the HTbypass .I may not end up with the MF A3.5 as until I demo next week I do not know what I will end up.The MF A3.5 is just a suggestion by the dealer who also has a MF A5, and MF A5.5.I will be demoing some nads and give rotel a second listen.Also maybe arcam and also denon.I am hoping that the MF A3.5 is what I am looking for as I realy like the idea of the HT Bypass.ALso my price limit has now increased to 1500 because the dealer will let me put some money down to hold a unit and 90 days to pay it off.They have 40 per cent off Denons and even though I will demo them they are not on my short list.I am looking for feedback here from anyone who has a idea of what would pair well the B&W 683's and personal experience.Thanks.

[Opus007]

Well I auditioned the Musical Fidelity 3.5 Integrated today with a pair of 703's and to tell you the truth what a disappointment.Was paired with a rotel rcd 1072 cd player.There was nothing I liked about the sound.Tried the nad integrated c372 and though it was better still not what I wanted.
I had the dealer hooking this and that up and think he was getting frustrated with me.I told him I had the rotel's before and was unhappy with that also.He said that was odd and I was the first he had heard that from.
After discussing what I currently have he recommended that I try the Rotel RMB 1075, 5 x 120watt amp with my 4300 es receiver.I thought he was joking as I had told him I had the rsx 1057 and RB 1080 before and it always seemed that the B&W 683's always seemed to be lacking something with that combo.He said take the amp home ...calibrate....after calibration go into the receivers menu and boost each speaker up +3db.Said this would give less stress on the receiver.For music use good interconnects from cd player to the receiver and use the 2 channel direct mode bypassing the receivers sound processing.So with nothing to lose that's what I did.
My God.what a difference the amp made and doing what he suggested.Unbelievable how music sounds with the amp and using the 2 channel direct.And it added even more for ht.Wow.Guess I have to re-think my Rotel standing.And to make it even better with 40 percent off I only paid 650.00 with full warranty as it was a demo.So for now I am happy....but will be on the lookout for a better receiver to pair with the rotel.Maybe one of the new ones from Rotel.They do not have the new line yet but when they do I will surely give it a listen.Thanks for all the suggestions . ;x(

[Briz vegas]

The good results with the power amp is not surprising but the plus 3dB on the receiver is a new one on me.

Of course when you replace the receiver you can now go with a pre/pro instead as you do not require any onboard power amplification with the Rotel.

Enjoy the sounds+

[htsteve]

The good results with the power amp is not surprising but the plus 3dB on the receiver is a new one on me.

Of course when you replace the receiver you can now go with a pre/pro instead as you do not require any onboard power amplification with the Rotel.

Enjoy the sounds+

Opus007,

I'm glad you've found the next step in improving your system. I also agree with Briz vegas. You are now perfectly set up to get a pre-amp. No reason to pay for amps in a reciever when you have a very nice amp. A pre-pro will also sound better than almost any receiver.

You can consider recent used pre-pros as a way to save some $. If you have or want Blu ray, then you will want the HD audio formats (Dolby True HD and DTA Master Audio). The decoding will be either in the receiver/pre-pro or the BR player. This will mean you will need a new, current generation unit. However, you can get a BR machine that decodes the HD audio and sent it over via analog RCA's. This works quite well (it's what I do today). this approach opens up the types of pre-pro's that you can go after.


Hope this helps.

[Opus007]

What pre/pro would you match with the 1075 amp?My dealer has 40% off all discontinued Rotel gear to make room for the new line.I did not demo any pre/pro's.Should I stay with rotel ?Right now I am still in awe how the 1075 has opened up the soundstage of the sony 4300es.If I could pick up a good used unit I would even be open to that.Does any of the current Rotel pre's have the hd codecs.Guess it's time to do some research.Thanks

[Opus007]

Opus007,

This will mean you will need a new, current generation unit. However, you can get a BR machine that decodes the HD audio and sent it over via analog RCA's. This works quite well (it's what I do today). this approach opens up the types of pre-pro's that you can go after.


Hope this helps.

I think I understand what you mean here.I would use the multichannel outputs from a bluray player to the multichannel inputs on a pre/pro.Is that correct?

[emig5m]

I think I understand what you mean here.I would use the multichannel outputs from a bluray player to the multichannel inputs on a pre/pro.Is that correct?

But I'm pretty sure you loose bass management and other features (EQ for example) this way that are only available over digital. Something you might want to think about.

[htsteve]

I think I understand what you mean here.I would use the multichannel outputs from a bluray player to the multichannel inputs on a pre/pro.Is that correct?

Correct on connecting the Blu ray to the pre-pro. The key is to find a BR player that does on board decoding and outputs via analog RCA's. I know Sony and Panasonic have models like this. I'm sure there are others.


I believe in synergy between pre-amp and amp. They are designed for each other and work great together.

As for Rotel pre-pro's, you have a GREAT opportunity (at 40% off). I would look at the RSP-1069 (or RSP-1068). The major difference between the two is video. The 1069 has HDMI ports as well as a built in video scaler (up to 1080p).

I had the 1068 with a 1095 amp. It is a very nice combo. Either of these units would compliment the 1075 very well sonically, with the 1069 having the better video capabilities. You would have a very, very nice system.


Hope this helps.

[htsteve]

But I'm pretty sure you loose bass management and other features (EQ for example) this way that are only available over digital. Something you might want to think about.

Often this is true, but I believe some of the higher end BR players have some of this funtionality. Also, the improvement in sound with the HD audio formats is quite nice, especially the more capable a system is.

[Opus007]

I think I would like to get a pre-pro that does the hd codecs through hdmi.I have been looking at the Rotel RSP 1570 pre but not much out there yet on it and no reviews as of yet.I do see it is not THX certified if that makes a difference and the price tag for me is a little steep.The Marantz pre looks very nice but also out of my price range.Why are some of these pre-pro's as expensive as a receiver?I have two high end dealers here and one called me the other day as he thought I still had the Rotel rsx 1057 and told me that Rotel came out with a converter or something that enables the 1057 to do the hd audio through hdmi.Since I no longer had that unit i did not bother to have him expand on that.I did some searches but see nothing anywhere mentioning that so will call them tomorrow to see if it applies to the discontinued pre's even though I think he mistaken about the whole thing.

[htsteve]

I think I would like to get a pre-pro that does the hd codecs through hdmi.I have been looking at the Rotel RSP 1570 pre but not much out there yet on it and no reviews as of yet.I do see it is not THX certified if that makes a difference and the price tag for me is a little steep.The Marantz pre looks very nice but also out of my price range.Why are some of these pre-pro's as expensive as a receiver?I have two high end dealers here and one called me the other day as he thought I still had the Rotel rsx 1057 and told me that Rotel came out with a converter or something that enables the 1057 to do the hd audio through hdmi.Since I no longer had that unit i did not bother to have him expand on that.I did some searches but see nothing anywhere mentioning that so will call them tomorrow to see if it applies to the discontinued pre's even though I think he mistaken about the whole thing.

Opus007,

You've run into the dilemma with having the pre-pro doing the decoding. I require a new unit and the pricing is definitely higher. The best discount you're likely to see on a new generation unit is 10-15%.

I haven't heard about a Rotel converter to allow the HD processing. Good idea to check though on the older pre-pro's though.


Hope this helps.

[emig5m]

Why are some of these pre-pro's as expensive as a receiver?

You would hope the sound quality and performance was better? :huh: That's what I'm "hoping" for when the Emotiva XMC pre/pro comes out that for the price difference over my receiver that it would take me to the next level in sound quality. Otherwise, why the high price if it doesn't even have internal amps like the receiver does? Wouldn't make sense any other way and/or justify the price!

[htsteve]

Why are some of these pre-pro's as expensive as a receiver?

Opus007,

Good question. One might think a pre-pro is simply a receiver minus the amps and tuner. However, dedicated pre-pros, especially at the Rotel level and up, have better parts, design, power supplies/power circuits and better implementation of the chips. All of these elements tend to make pre-pros perfrom better than a receiver.


Hope this helps.

[Opus007]

Well guess I was just not paying attention to my dealer when he called me as he was talking about the ps3 bluray player.I too have been watching the emotiva line and looking to see what the new pre-pro offers.The rotel amp has opened up the B&W's a lot and I do mean a lot.But I know I can achieve better sound with something different other than the sony.When I had the rotel 1057 receiver and 1080 amp I used the sony 4300es preouts to the Rotel receiver multi inputs and the the front left and right pre's on the rotel receiver to the amp.But as mentioned earlier , when doing it this way I was losing a lot.The sony alone with the amp does excellent for ht.Mega bang and thump...but now even though the amp makes a difference in music ... the sony just doesn't cut it.I may just have to save for awhile and then sell the sony (for which I will not get near what I paid for it) and just hope something good comes along in the mean time.I think the new Emotive is a possibility but it has not hit the market yet.And of course not to sure about the Emotiva sound.Only real thing I know is you can demo for 30 days which makes it less of a gamble as I have no idea how it would pair with the B&W's and Rotel.

[emig5m]

I think the new Emotive is a possibility but it has not hit the market yet.And of course not to sure about the Emotiva sound.Only real thing I know is you can demo for 30 days which makes it less of a gamble as I have no idea how it would pair with the B&W's and Rotel.

Well I got the XPA-5 power amp and it has been flawless so far with my B&W 600 system using a Yamaha as a pre/pro. The XPA-5 didn't add it's own sound character to the Yamaha's sound, I basically only noticed a higher performing amp (bass was more weighted/clearer at high volume/handled the ohm drop where I continuously drove the receiver into protection mode) so I think it's a fairly neutral amp. There's people on the Emotiva forums that use Emotiva with the higher end 800 series B&Ws and they have no complaints. So I think it's fair to assume that they are of high quality sound and pair nicely with B&W speakers and other hi-fi equipment. I would hope someone who has 800 series would know a thing or two about what quality sounding equipment is and they would let you know if there was something wrong with it.

My eye is on the XMC-1 pre/pro from Emotiva. It's their higher end pre/pro and will be released after the UMC-1. My "hope" is that a more expensive dedicated pre amp will flat out better the sound quality of the integrated budget receiver I have now. I have no disappointment with the Yamaha at all, it's 'thee' best sounding budget receiver I've ever owned (the only receiver I've owned that was on par for sound quality with my old Carver separates - the rest of the budget receivers I've owned never came close), but if there's a higher level in sound quality of using a dedicated pre/pro over this surprisingly well sounding budget receiver, than I want it! hehe. :lol: Like you said, Emotiva has a 30 day money back trial period, what do I have to lose?

So it's like... is the Yamaha and 600 series that I have now in a perfect synergy (they almost have the same numbering, 683 and 663, hehe :E ) and not one or the other capable of more than the other, or would 600 series level speakers, basically the bottom of the line for B&W, still be able to benefit from a higher quality pre amp such as the Emotiva XMC-1? This is the question that's going to drive me nuts until I get my hands on one to try! :E

[Opus007]

emig5m...I see that you go to the Emotiva Lounge.I am also a member there but just lurk and have never posted.I did read that the UMC-1 may not hit the market till maybe summer and the XMC-1 pre/pro may not hit till 2010.All speculation of course.I actually would love the marantz but not at its current price tag.Have been researching the Rotel rsp1570 but bugs are showing it's ugly head there and as I said , it is out of my price range,at least for now.If the emotive did the job that would be great.For now I will just have to keep watching.Unfortunately once I started down this road my wallet got smaller.I am a poor man in a rich man's game.I think life was much more simple when I built my own speakers and used a old receiver and only watched vhs.Now everything gets so complicated and there are too many choices and too many options and finding the right matches is a quest.Now I want 800 series speakers and killer amps ...ect...always in search of that perfect sound...whatever that is.What I have is never enough.I should of never walked into that high end dealer years ago to be told I had everything wrong.
Oh sorry...got off topic here ...so the quest goes on. ;x(

[emig5m]

The later the XMC comes out, the better for me, hehe. I don't feel like spending anything right now (broken foot/off work till spring) and I also read they had quality/glitch problems with another preamp so they probably don't want to go down that road again and make sure it's perfect upon release. After the XMC-1, I probably won't be upgrading electronics for a long while. The 800 series do have my interest, I'll have to see how work goes the next season or two. This year was the worst year for me in the 16 years I've done my line of work. :E If not, I don't have any real complaints with the 600 series....they where a definite solid upgrade over what I had before and will serve me for many years to come. I don't absolutely have to have the 800's to enjoy sound, but I'll get them if I can...

[Opus007]

Sometimes I sit here and my jaw drops and I think to myself....simply amazing speakers.They are a upgrade for me also.I am in no way complaining about the 600 series.The 800 series would be nice but I will probably never own them.But I can dream.I like you have had a rough year.I am a toshiba certified phone system installer and no one is buying and with a lot of companies downsizing or going completely out of business we have to rely mainly on service.Times are hard.
I do hope the Emotiva stuff comes out soon.It may be a rough year but I always manage to scrounge up the cash when I want something bad enough.If I had to I could live with what I have now.It's not the best but it is good.
On a different note when I auditioned the Musical Fidelity Integrated I could not believe how bad the 703's sounded.I thought to myself that what I have now with the 683's blows those out the water.But of course the amp,room acoustics probably paid a big role.I have heard the 800 series with different setups and never did I hear them sound bad.So if I ever can afford a upgrade it will be to the 800's.And even then they will be used.

[sunshdw]

How about anthem?? They make some very nice stuff reasonably priced

[Race Car Driver]

NM, you are looking for a stereo receiver... my bad

[Opus007]

As of now the original idea of a 2 channel stereo has gone out the window with the purchas of the Rotel RMB 1075.I am now looking for a reasonable priced pre/pro.It needs to have hdmi capability and the new codecs and would be used for HT and Stereo music.I may have to wait awhile as the ones I have looked at are out of my price range.1000.00

[Race Car Driver]

Yea, I just ended up getting the Yamaha RXV3900. 140 watts per channel and it does everything I need with HDMI switching. Kinda spendy but I dont think it will be all that bad for HT. The new 1900 is pretty nice too.

http://www.yamaha.com/yec/products/productdetail.html?CNTID=5016803&CTID=5000300

[Opus007]

Yea, I just ended up getting the Yamaha RXV3900. 140 watts per channel and it does everything I need with HDMI switching. Kinda spendy but I dont think it will be all that bad for HT. The new 1900 is pretty nice too.

http://www.yamaha.com/yec/products/p...3&CTID=5000300

So how does it fair for two channel audio...music?